Combat Shotguns in Shadowrun Options

[Ol' Scratch]

The big difference is that burst fire is just insanely powerful now. Even if a Shotgun had a base DV of 9P, it'd still be an iffy choice compared to an assault rifle or even an SMG. And since they use a unique skill unrelated to those weapons, not to mention the game's crazy prices for skills... it causes a big ol' "why bother?" Why bother with a shotgun when you can take Automatics and have access to pistols, smgs, and rifles, all of which use the crazy burst fire rules?

If they'd have done something more sensible such as get rid of the Automatics skill and just base weapons on Small Arms, Long Arms, Heavy Weapons, and Launch Weapons, a lot of those issues would be fixed. Then people would feel okay about carrying around a shotgun whenever their assault rifle wasn't appropriate (since they used the same skill), and a SA/BF Machine Pistol could actually be used by the same person who has no trouble firing a SA/BF Heavy Pistol. You'd also see normal rifles being used more often, too.

In other words, while the weapons and their related rules are part of the problem, the biggest issue is the skill one.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, no defaulting to other skill?

[Ol' Scratch]

Defaulting doesn't work like that anymore. When you default it's Attribute-1, rather than Attribute+Skill.

[Stahlseele]

If you default to attribute alone, yes, but is there no defaulting to other skill which means a -2 to the dice pool but otherwise working like intended?

[Ol' Scratch]

Not unless they changed the name and hid the rule somewhere. Which may very well be the case; wouldn't be the first time we've been playing this long without noticing something like that. I just double checked; didn't see anything about that. Here's the text. SR4A, p 121:

Defaulting

Sometimes a character wants to attempt an action but does not have the necessary skill. A character in this situation can still act; however, she will find it more difficult to succeed than a character who has the needed skill. Improvising when your character doesn’t have the necessary skill is called defaulting. Defaulting allows a character to still make the test using only the linked attribute in their dice pool, but with a dice pool modifier of –1. Players can use Edge to augment this test. Note that characters may not default to any attribute other than the linked attribute.

Some tasks are simply too complex for someone who lacks the proper skill to attempt. These skills may not be defaulted on, as noted in the skill descriptions starting below.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, okay, i thought i had read something to the stated by me extent . . may be mixing up SR3 and SR4 again . .

[Ol' Scratch]

I think they tried to get around skill webs and the old school method of defaulting with the creation of Skill Groups. They clearly thought those would be far more popular than they are, and even if they were they'd still be kind of full of fail.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
In SR3, there wasn't even a FIREARMS Group.
Nor a Group for Bladed weapons.
There was pistols, smgs, rifles, shotguns, heavy weapons.
And edged weapons and pole-arms. Even if the latter are just the former on a stick.

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, I know. But you didn't need them, either, because you could use, say, your Rifles 6 skill to shoot with a shotgun as if you had Shotguns 4. And skill points were a lot easier to come by then, too, so you could be a very richly diversed character without having to cripple yourself in other areas. Now you can't do that. You can't use your Pistols 4 skill to shoot a Machine Pistol. But if you had the Firearms 4 skill group, you basically could.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah. Why would anybody ever take single skills instead of the firearms group? O.o
Aside for point costs being too high in creation, i don't see any drawback from that.

[Ol' Scratch]

Lack of specializations and the limitation to a rank of 4 at creation are the two big stopping blocks. Unless you were already planning on taking 3 or more skills from the skill group and using them on a regular basis, it's not cost effective in the least. The only ones I regularly take are Influence and Athletics, and even Athletics is iffy since Climbing and Swimming are pretty marginal skills.

[Stahlseele]

Well, better to have and not need than not to have and indeed need i allways say ^^

[fazzamar]

Yeah. Why would anybody ever take single skills instead of the firearms group? O.o
Aside for point costs being too high in creation, i don't see any drawback from that.

if they consider a max starting skill of 4 in all firearms skills too low.

[Stahlseele]

That's only 2 less dice than you could have anyway. Maybe 4 if you factor in specialization and Aptitude.
Most of that can probably be picked up with good modifications on other parts. You may not be completely hardmaxed at the beginning, but you can split up the group in game, will have the unneeded skills at level 4 still and be able to take specializations for your favourite skills in game too.

[WinterScale]

...when you can take Automatics and have access to pistols, smgs, and rifles, all of which use the crazy burst fire rules?

Emphasis mine.

Huh what? Do you specifically mean Machine Pistols, or are you also talking about BF capable heavy pistols like the Guardian and Thunderbolt?

[Yerameyahu]

4 fewer dice isn't nothing. Anyway, I agree that Automatics is very broad, and that the skill divisions are uneven. I just didn't understand Triggvi's argument that shotguns were better.

I assumed he meant machines pistols, which makes Automatics plenty broad

[Ol' Scratch]

I meant Machine Pistols, just like I meant Assault Rifles. Automatics includes at least one type of weapon from each of those categories, which grossly limits the point of those other skills, demonstrating exactly why it shouldn't be a skill itself.

[Triggvi]

4 fewer dice isn't nothing. Anyway, I agree that Automatics is very broad, and that the skill divisions are uneven. I just didn't understand Triggvi's argument that shotguns were better.

I assumed he meant machines pistols, which makes Automatics plenty broad

I was not saying shotguns where better as a general statement. Shotguns in close quarters urban fighting are better than SMG. They back a bigger punch with less ammo expended. They are less likely to kill innocents if they catch stray pellets instead of bullets. They f**k intimidating. There are good reasons swat and anti-terrorist unit use them.

I can agree that the skill distribution for firearms is a little weird. Pistols, SMG, Long-arm would be a better way of doing it.

I think the flechette rules could use a bit of work. what would make flechettes nasty verses unarmored or low armored target. add+2 dv to the damage with 0 AP(impact). then take and split it into to separate hits(round up). Armor would be considered hardened for the attacks.

A sliver would do 5+2dv/2 =4p and 4p. if someone is wearing a armored coat would not take any damage unless the net hits gave them enough to breach the armor rating. against a leather jacket, you would take two shots at 4p+net hits. That would mean a Slivergun at SA with 2 simple actions would hit someone 4 times.

Flechettes are suppose to be very deadly verses unarmored people but nearly ineffectual verses armor and another good reason for flechettes is that they don't penetrate walls very well.

[D2F]

I have noticed that SR players tend to like Submachine Guns and Assault Rifles and the like. I personally think Full auto is over-rated. It had heavy penalties and can never be full compensated for by the runner(drones and vehicles no included). One under utilized area is Automatic Shotguns. With a few mods I can get a Enfield AS-7 to have no recoil on a long burst on both burst in a pass. And with the Ammo options you can have with a combat shotgun would make it a very nasty weapon.

RC 6
Gas vent 3
sling
foregrip
personalized grip or electronic firing

Submachine gun on full auto RC5 (complex Action) is taking at least a -4 to his die pool to do +9 DV

Shotgun long burst RC 6. two long bursts (Simple Actions). no dice penalty and +5DV for each shot.

Mossberg with Long Burts, Narrow Burst, Wide Choke Options... deadly.

[D2F]

As far as RAW is concerned you're right, sorry.
But when I look at the pic of the gun that all smells a bit cheesy imho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There is no reason it can not be internal. Take a look at the Kriss for excemple.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah. Well, my point was that shotguns are barely different from ARs in the game, so I was confused.

[Creel]

I don't like shotguns because I don't like too much extra noise. silenced smg with caseless is quiet and has a significantly higher ammo capacity. Less reloading in combat, easier to avoid large-scale engagements. If I geek a mook with a 12-gauge somebody's going to come looking; 3 rounds from a silenced hk227, and the loudest noise is him hitting the floor. If shit well and truly hits the fan, the less frequent reloading can be quite handy. Concealability is nice too.

[Whipstitch]

I can agree that the skill distribution for firearms is a little weird. Pistols, SMG, Long-arm would be a better way of doing it.

Old timers are probably tired of hearing me say this, but I think the best way to go is to put practically everything with a trigger into one weapons group and then have sidearms, small arms and support weapons as the categories within that group-- with such a grouping the weapons are essentially divided up by way by the manner they function by RAW, which is all that really matters as far as I'm concerned, since RAW behavior is a prime concern for most players.* Players choose Sidearms (Holdouts, Tasers, Pistols, including Machine) when they want convenient/concealable, small arms (SMGs, assault rifles, shotgun, sniper) for when you don't really give a crap about who knows you're heading to a fight and support weapons are the big guns and mil-spec launcher weapons. Under my grouping, the Samurai can still get by just fine with a sawn off shotgun and one skill group (sidearms) if they want to, the Face gets a new toy in MPs if he sticks with sidearms (the de facto pistols group) and the weapon specialist gets a big ol' fat discount that frankly they desperately need-- My philosophy is that SR4 doesn't have granular enough rules that paying a ton of BP for slightly different ways of hurting people with bullets to be very economical. The RAW differences are small enough that the average runner is usually best off sticking with one weapon type and then grabbing Hardware, Etiquette or Infiltration instead of paying for another way to make people dead.

*Yeah, the naming conventions aren't great, but it's the best I could come up with as far as intuitiveness goes, even if technically speaking sidearms fall under the small arms umbrella.

[Triggvi]

Ah. Well, my point was that shotguns are barely different from ARs in the game, so I was confused.

The reason I was looking at shotguns as a good choice is that I am running a sniper with a high long-arms skill. I was looking for a good close quarters weapon for him that used his long-arms skill. The Enfield AS-7 with mods was a good choice. With RC 3 and no gas vent you can use a sound suppressor with it.. AutoAssault-16 with mods is a good choice too. with RC6 I can do long bursts and short burts and use full auto for supression fire.

The rules are a little over simplified and weighty at the same time where firearms are concerned.

One thing I have noticed from edition to edition of games is that the writers tend to have there favorite weapons and least favorite weapons. In this case the writers loved automatics and hated shotguns or it was a knee jerk reaction to 3rd ed where shotguns were bad-ass weapons.

[Creel]

The reason I was looking at shotguns as a good choice is that I am running a sniper with a high long-arms skill. I was looking for a good close quarters weapon for him that used his long-arms skill. The Enfield AS-7 with mods was a good choice. With RC 3 and no gas vent you can use a sound suppressor with it.. AutoAssault-16 with mods is a good choice too. with RC6 I can do long bursts and short burts and use full auto for supression fire.

The rules are a little over simplified and weighty at the same time where firearms are concerned.

One thing I have noticed from edition to edition of games is that the writers tend to have there favorite weapons and least favorite weapons. In this case the writers loved automatics and hated shotguns or it was a knee jerk reaction to 3rd ed where shotguns were bad-ass weapons.

Without bothering to look at RAW...I gotta call zombie bullshit on that one.