Combat Shotguns in Shadowrun Options

[Triggvi]

I don't like shotguns because I don't like too much extra noise. silenced smg with caseless is quiet and has a significantly higher ammo capacity. Less reloading in combat, easier to avoid large-scale engagements. If I geek a mook with a 12-gauge somebody's going to come looking; 3 rounds from a silenced hk227, and the loudest noise is him hitting the floor. If shit well and truly hits the fan, the less frequent reloading can be quite handy. Concealability is nice too.

A shotgun with a drum of 24 or more rounds and I don't have to reload often. You know that you can't use sound supressor with gas vent right? Nor can you use a silencer on a SMG.

The noise concern is a fair statement. At the point I am using a shotgun. Noise is the least of my worries. Dropping people and removing doors is.

[Udoshi]

I'd like to point out that Shotgun Choke/Spread is a rather overlooked rule. As we all know, a hit on the attack is generally worth three on the defense. With choke and burst fire, you can increase your net hits by reducing the defenders pool.

Narrow is the standard Flechette code. (+2dv/+5ap)
Medium spread hits up to two targets who are within one meter ofeach other. +0dv/+7ap, but -2 to the defense roll
Wide hits three targets within one meter, for -2DV/+9ap, but a -4 to the defense pool.
Multi-hitting uses the same attack roll vs all concerned targets. It also stacks with burst fire.

Let's take an AA-12(which has a gasvent2), put an external smartlink and an auto-adjusting weight modification on it, for 6 total points of RC while in FA mode, and see what a long, wide narrow burst on wide choke does.

The AA-12 is 7P/ap-1 base, so with that setting it would do 5P(+nethits) at AP+8, but also gives the defender -9 dice to defend. What that means, is the average runner is not even going to get a chance to roll. If the target is wearing any armor at all, they will almost always be taking stun damage instead.

Let's say the target is someone with a chameleon suit(6ballistic), with reaction 4, dodge4(ranged +2), and, say, an orc with a body of 5. He goes on full defense, and gets a single dice to try to dodge(4+4+2-9) - no hits, so he'll be getting 19(6+5+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) dice to soak the damage.

Our shooter, on the other hand, has a fairly high agility due to some Muscle Toner 2 - say agi 7, a smartlink, and longarms 4(shotguns+2), and a Tacnet 1. 16 dice to shoot with the aa-12.

Buying hits: The shotgunner gets 4 hits on the attack. The ork gets no hits on dodge, and four hits to soak, and takes 5 stun.
Testrolling dice on my end: 3 and 5 the first set(3stun). 5 and 7 the second(3 stun). Which isn't too great at all, but it'd hit anyone nearby the primary target too. Its like a cheap grenade.
In the above example, changing to a narrow burst and buying hits, the ork gets 1 on the dodge roll, 4 on the soak, dealing 10 stun (5base+3hits+5burst). Which isn't bad at all.
Rerolling the above, two attacks for comparison, yielded 6/5 on the attack, 1/2 on the dodge, and 7/7 on the soak. So, 8 and 6 stun damage respectively.

That's an extreme example, though. For general work, medium-choke and short(or long+short) will serve you pretty well. Its also worth noting that due to the multihit rules, if you have some clumped enemies, Edge can let you drop a fairly large brick of damage onto all of them.

So yeah. Shotguns aren't great. But they're not too bad if you know the rules for them.

[Creel]

A shotgun with a drum of 24 or more rounds and I don't have to reload often. You know that you can't use sound supressor with gas vent right? Nor can you use a silencer on a SMG.

The noise concern is a fair statement. At the point I am using a shotgun. Noise is the least of my worries. Dropping people and removing doors is.

True, I failed to distinguish between sound suppressor and silencer.

HK227x has integral SS, there's no reason it can't take a barrel-mounted accessory.

[Triggvi]

True, I failed to distinguish between sound suppressor and silencer.

HK227x has integral SS, there's no reason it can't take a barrel-mounted accessory.

Raw states that if you use a sound suppressor and gas vent, you get no benefit from the suppressor. There are places a shotgun is a better choice than a SMG. There are places that a SMG is a better choice.

SMG are not very good for opening locked doors. A shotgun is very good at opening locked doors with shock lock rounds. There are advantages to both. Swat teams use both

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, I'm wondering about the multi-hit rules specifically. I could have sworn that autofire, even with flechette, was specifically *not* like a grenade.

[Creel]

Raw states that if you use a sound suppressor and gas vent, you get no benefit from the suppressor. There are places a shotgun is a better choice than a SMG. There are places that a SMG is a better choice.

SMG are not very good for opening locked doors. A shotgun is very good at opening locked doors with shock lock rounds. There are advantages to both. Swat teams use both

I can understand why RAW would say that, but I'd like to know where. I generally put the seeming contradiction down to a few more decades of engineering.

I agree that there's a time and a place for shotguns, I just prefer to avoid those times and places.

[Triggvi]

I can understand why RAW would say that, but I'd like to know where. I generally put the seeming contradiction down to a few more decades of engineering.

I agree that there's a time and a place for shotguns, I just prefer to avoid those times and places.

Arsenal pg 152 under gas vents. I have found rules in weird places too.

[Nal0n]

There is no reason it can not be internal. Take a look at the Kriss for excemple.

The KRISS has a totally new developed Operating Action Mechanism that diverts the recoil to another direction then back/up to reduce barrel climb ... and it has it by design, and it's got nothing to do with the barrel/under barrel.

The FN P93 has no such technology by design, but it has to be fitted afterwards to where it seemingly would not fit (a weight moving along the barrel).
I'm not arguing you cound not use an underbarrel weight (just make the right part of the under barrel construction heavier) but in a SMG in bullpup design I do net see enough room under the barrel to fit an auto-adjusting weight.

[Creel]

Arsenal pg 152 under gas vents. I have found rules in weird places too.

Groovy, thanks.

that's not actually all that much of a hinderance. You can have both, and it's a simple (free with smartlink) action to go from sneaky to balls-out.

[Yerameyahu]

You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?

[Triggvi]

Groovy, thanks.

that's not actually all that much of a hinderance. You can have both, and it's a simple (free with smartlink) action to go from sneaky to balls-out.

The weird part of all this is that a full auto shotgun is easier to use that a full auto SMG. More room for recoil comps and a heavier wpn.

[Triggvi]

You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?

You can turn the Gas Vent off and on. You can't turn a suppressor on and off. suppressors don't work that way.

[Udoshi]

Actually, I'm wondering about the multi-hit rules specifically. I could have sworn that autofire, even with flechette, was specifically *not* like a grenade.

Its in the combat section, right next to the burst fire rules(4a 154). Mechanically, it is not like a grenade. Effectively - in that it blows several close-by people up at once - it is. The multi-hit wording is very similar to that of Miniguns, and the GE Vigilant light autocannon - if other people are within a few meters, they can get hit too.

For multihitting, the attacker makes one attack roll, and uses the results against all viable targets. Unlike grenades, medium spread hits up to two targets, and wide hits up to three. Whereas a grenade would hit everyone within range. Similar, but different.

[Creel]

You can turn suppressors and GV on and off, smartlinked or otherwise?

News to me too, chummer.

Arsenal pg. 152
Characters can have a fi rearm equipped with a sound
suppressor or thermal suppressor (p. 153) and a gas-vent system
at the same time; however, the gas-vent system must be turned
off in order to receive the benefi ts from the suppressor. Turning
a gas-vent system on and off requires a Simple Action, or a Free
Action in the case of smartguns.

[Yerameyahu]

Wow. That's a big change, I didn't notice it in Arsenal at all!

Also, thanks Udoshi. I see what was meant now. I thought it was argued that the *burst fire* did it, not the spread.

[DVSman]

Wow, the smartgun gasvent thing is news to me. Learn something new every day.

[Yerameyahu]

Does that mean one has to be a modification/stock and the other has to be an accessory, though? Or 1 stock and one mod works too, I guess.

[Falconer]

Shrike covered most of the errors but made others..

Auto-Shotguns and heavy weapons suffer DOUBLE recoil penalties (p152 under heavy weapons). So uncompensated recoil is doubly troubling and there's less points available.


Shrike modifies an ares alpha by removing a mod then using the space... per modification rules. Removing a stock feature does not grant extra replacement point.


Quite frankly... you're better off taking a SA hunting rifle... modifying it to fire FA, as you can still get a lot of recoil comp on it.

[Falconer]

Shrike covered most of the errors but made others..

Auto-Shotguns and heavy weapons suffer DOUBLE recoil penalties (p152 under heavy weapons). So uncompensated recoil is doubly troubling and there's less points available.


Shrike modifies an ares alpha by removing a mod then using the space... per modification rules. Removing a stock feature does not grant extra replacement point.


Others have pointed out HVAR is only available to SMG and AR's... so MG's don't qualify by strict RAW. (sucks I know.. I'd want belted weapons on things designed to fire at ludicrous speed myself, especially for use in drones/vehicles).


Quite frankly... you're better off taking a SA hunting rifle... modifying it to fire FA, as you can still get a lot of recoil comp on it.

[Udoshi]

Others have pointed out HVAR is only available to SMG and AR's... so MG's don't qualify by strict RAW. (sucks I know.. I'd want belted weapons on things designed to fire at ludicrous speed myself, especially for use in drones/vehicles).

Not -quite- true. The HVAR sidebar says that "only submachine guns and assault rifles can be constructed as high-velocity weapons." Constructed. Ah-ha.
Whereas the high velocity modification, may be applied to "(Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only)".

Raw, yeah, it works. RAI, heck no.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno, you think RAI is that *real* MGs can't be HV? *shrug*

[Nemo]

That would invalidad the Vindicator Minigun

[D2F]

The KRISS has a totally new developed Operating Action Mechanism that diverts the recoil to another direction then back/up to reduce barrel climb ... and it has it by design, and it's got nothing to do with the barrel/under barrel.

It's the same technology, just a different location. And if you use the modification option, then it is by design as well. Also, the available ascessory slots have no impact on the avilability of modifications, to my knowledge.

[Creel]

Does that mean one has to be a modification/stock and the other has to be an accessory, though? Or 1 stock and one mod works too, I guess.

Yeah, they just can't both be accessories, as they're both barrel mounts.

[Mäx]

Let's say the target is someone with a chameleon suit(6ballistic), with reaction 4, dodge4(ranged +2), and, say, an orc with a body of 5. He goes on full defense, and gets a single dice to try to dodge(4+4+2-9) - no hits, so he'll be getting 19(6+5+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) dice to soak the damage.

Our shooter, on the other hand, has a fairly high agility due to some Muscle Toner 2 - say agi 7, a smartlink, and longarms 4(shotguns+2), and a Tacnet 1. 16 dice to shoot with the aa-12.

Actually he only gets 17 dice to defend, fletsette round go against impact armor, but chameleon suit is a pretty light armor to have for someone with body 5 when you could easily have 10/10 armor or more if using ware, my Sasha(body 5 dryad) for example has 12/12 armor so she would get 25 dice to soak that damage so she takes on avarage 1 point of stun damage and if the attacker gets one more or she one less hit her plateted factories drops thaat 2 damage to 1 too.

So a narrow burst might be a better idea then wide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)