Alternate Hacking Systems, Post your own! Options

[Bira]

Well, it looks like the "Unbreakable Encryption" thread has derailed into a discussion of why the Matrix system as a whole sucks, and what should replace it. I decided not to participate in that derailment, and instead open a thread for people who want to post their own alternate systems here.

I don't mind having an abstract system to handle hacking. In fact, I think one of the problems with the current system is that it's not abstract enough. Even though it's simpler in 4th Edition, it's still in that "Uncanny Valley" where it's abstract, but still detailed enough that it bugs people when it deviates from reality. The main cause of that, in my mind, is the big emphasis put on programs.

In addition to being a fiddly subsystem, programs (including OSs) are being balanced as if they were a piece of physical equipment. Each has a very specific function and a rating. The more programs you have, and the higher their ratings, the better you can be at hacking. The main limiting factor on the number and rating of your programs is money. If you can somehow get your programs for free, there wouldn't be anything stopping you from having all programs at the highest rating you can fit in your commlink. However, it turns out software is indeed different than physical equipment. For one, it's much easier to obtain for free! If Shadowrun bears any resemblance at all to our world, it could even be done legally for most programs that aren't actually restricted by law. Those could be gotten fairly easily by the big bad hackers shadowrunners are supposed to be.

To "counter" this, they introduced program update rules on Unwired, where only legally purchased proprietary software gets regular updates. If you want to keep up with your cracked copies or (gasp!) free software, you have to dedicate every waking moment of your PC's time to patching it. I don't remember the specifics, but I think there was also a strong implication that the character would have to either do all of this on his own, since for some reason there weren't any networks of people dedicated to maintaining free software or cracking proprietary programs, unlike in real life.

My proposed solution would be a system where programs don't matter at all for the rules. Oh, sure, they're still there in the setting, but you don't need to keep track of how much they cost or how up-to-date they are. Why should you? Your character is a big bad shadowrunnin' hacker with loads of points invested in mental attributes and computer skills, let him worry about all of that. Just assume he's either using free software and/or cracked programs he obtained for free, and they're all so good at their functions the only limiting factors are the speed of his hardware and his own personal skill. So that's all you need to track. The only relevant gear-derived numbers are now Response and Signal. Signal is mostly there to determine your radio range.

Hacking is a contest of the hacker's Logic + Skill + Response against the Logic + Skill + Response of the target system's administrator. If the hacker suceeds, he's in, if he fails, he suffers consequences dependent on what sort of security measures are installed in the system. For example, you could apply the net sucesses of the target as successes towards a trace on the hacker, or damage boxes to his persona or to his brain. The target's system security programs probably aren't cracked, but they're assumed to also be as good as the system itself can handle, and are limited by the same factors as the hacker's attack programs. Multiple retries are allowed for the hacker, with the usual penalties. Taking extra time to probe the system beforehand gives the hacker bonus dice in proportion to the time he took. Hot Sim adds its usual bonus. Multiply all hardware costs by a factor that makes you comfortable, to compensate for the fact hackers don't need to pay for software anymore.

Technomancers use Resonance + Skill instead, and can use Threading to get additional bonuses here, in place of the hacker's fixed Response bonus. They always get the Hot Sim bonus.

[tete]

My proposed solution would be a system where programs don't matter at all for the rules.

This would make too much sense as decking and spellcasting have always had similar rules in the past (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think Eclipse Phase's hacking system should just be ported to dice pools. Which would go with your programs don't matter to some extent.

[Teulisch]

i like the no programs idea, but have an idea for an interesting modification:

all hackers get programs equal to their linked skills for free. now, this excludes a few programs with no linked skill (stealth being the most important), but goes a long way to simplifying the bookkeeping. and if they want an optimized high rating program then its still possible, just harder to get. and this helps open up the options for hackers, to afford more cool stuff (be it way better programs, or just more cyber and guns).

with the gear in unwired, hacking has moved back to being more hardware-focused again. you get upgrades for +initiative, +IP, dedicated systems for running browse, and optimization to get that extra die on your most important program.

What i think we need are kit/shop/facility grades for computers. the commlink is the kit, simple and mobile. The shop is big, expensive, and hard to move, the kind of stuff you could run a shadownet on from a basement or run an A or B corp. the facility size is a corporate AA or AAA mainframe that costs tens of millions existing mainly as a high-end target. If I were to describe the zurich-orbital system as a response 8 system running reality filters to operate at system 9, with rating 18 (optimization 9) black IC, then thats something to bloody well FEAR.

[Ascalaphus]

On the one hand, I like the idea of buying programs from shady people in dark back-alleys. On the other hand that's '80s charm, not really plausible anymore.

In Neuromancer, one of the nifty lesser plot items was the chinese military virus. It's an interesting example of how a special program can stand out, while abstraction is applied towards the other programs.

I'm considering making programs an "item", not necessarily always rated, that enables certain Matrix operations. The power of an operation depends mostly on the hacker however; high ratings tend to enable more features.

Programs would have an Availability; but unlike most other gear, if your Logic + Data Search >= Availability, you can download the program for free without any fuss or even dice rolls. Most normal hacking programs would fall in this category.

[Walpurgisborn]

What about capping a program's dice pool bonus at the user's Logic?

[Draco18s]

What about capping a program's dice pool bonus at the user's Logic?

That solves a problem with the Rules As Written, which is that logic isn't involved in the equation. What this thread is scrapping the Rules As Written and starting over.

[Bira]

In Neuromancer, one of the nifty lesser plot items was the chinese military virus. It's an interesting example of how a special program can stand out, while abstraction is applied towards the other programs.

I actually want to stay away from Gibson here, because he didn't know a computer from his left foot when he wrote Neuromancer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . I also really want to stay away from having to keep track of program ratings and such, because that's completely unnecessary once you make programs unessential to the hacking rules. That said, I like the idea that sometimes you need a specific McGuffin (tailor-made icebreaker, cryptographic keys, whatever) to be able to hack a certain system, but I wouldn't want to generalize that into an integral part of the rules, because then we're right back to square 1 as far as I'm concerned.

[Bira]

What i think we need are kit/shop/facility grades for computers. the commlink is the kit, simple and mobile. The shop is big, expensive, and hard to move, the kind of stuff you could run a shadownet on from a basement or run an A or B corp. the facility size is a corporate AA or AAA mainframe that costs tens of millions existing mainly as a high-end target. If I were to describe the zurich-orbital system as a response 8 system running reality filters to operate at system 9, with rating 18 (optimization 9) black IC, then thats something to bloody well FEAR.

They have something like that on Unwired. It's called a "Nexus", and it's basically a large server that allows lots of users to log in and work at once. They have several models, and most stay within the 1-6 range on ratings, but there's no reason why you couldn't have higher ratings on really sensitive networks.

[Synner667]

Jumping into what could end up being interesting, for any RPG...
...I think several things need to be used for the baseline.

How powerful are computers [Neuromancer has AIs providing firewalls and security, and other AIs providing bypass programs] ??
What's the state of networks, firewalls, encryption, cost/ease of access after 50 years of tech advances, privacy, 2 global network meltdowns, corporate control of the net ??
The level of detail/rules.

My own Decking rules use a 4 point, vague method :-
Find a network/device to access
Bypass security
Manipulate software/hardware
Leave

System access is rolled by system and Decker.
Whoever generates more successes reduces the opponent by the difference, and that reduces their ability for sensing/attacking/manipulation/etc
Separate rolls for each action in the system, modified by the degree of success

[Bira]

I didn't actually change anything about the setting for my proposed system - just trimmed it down to a single opposed roll and eliminated programs from the equation. This was inspired by the rules in GURPS Action, which are what I actually use when playing. I didn't really feel the need to challenge or rewrite the standard setting's premises, just slim down the rules to the point where any perceived "unrealistic" mechanics ceased to matter.

[Ol' Scratch]

Logic + Computers + System roll vs. appropriate roll depending on the opposition. Then continue on with the real game.

(In other words, we rarely if ever do anything advanced with the Matrix. It's one of our least favorite aspects of the game, so we dismiss it for the most part. And there's just one skill dedicated to it, as mentioned above. If something comes up that requires access to it, that's how we handle it. Otherwise it's just a roleplaying tool for us.)

[WeaverMount]

Programs would have an Availability; but unlike most other gear, if your Logic + Data Search >= Availability, you can download the program for free without any fuss or even dice rolls. Most normal hacking programs would fall in this category.

I like this and would add the option to search for bonus that degrade over time. That way you can give players a super sexy rating 7 stealth program but it quickly degrades to less than what they can find trivially. What this means is that bad-ass runners always have good gear, and still have to make a heavy investment to get high rating equipment.

[Mongoose]

Simple solution? Have the hacker tell the GM what he wants to do. GM sets difficulty of job as with any complex task. Defending system starts running its own defensive task(s), trowing problems at the hacker as it accomplishes its tasks. Inordinantly good / bad rolls on either side lead to unexpected benefits / problems for that side.

The specifics of the systems you are hacking (and the tools you are using) aren't really that important, when it comes down to it. What maters is, can you get done what you wanted to get done, and how much pain do you run into along the way? If you can determine that fairly simply, why bother with the rest? In such a system, bonuses would likely come more from having good intel and skills, than from spending a lot of cash on hardware.

[The Monk]

I've been rolling this over in my head, haven't written anything down so forgive me if this doesn't seem that coherent.

First of all, dice pools would consist of Attribute+Skill+Program Rating. However, a commlink (or device) can only run one program with a rating equal to it's System, two programs with a rating equal to System -2, and so on, with the exception of running as many rating one programs as you want.

For example, a commlink with a System of 6 can run one program at rating 6, two programs at rating 4, three programs at rating 2 and any number of rating one programs.

At this point your thinking: what the hell? And it is probably a crazy idea, but my thoughts on this is that this makes hackers choose what method they are going to use to break into a device. You want to be stealthy, then Stealth is going to be your highest program. If you want to just crush anything you come across, then Attack is going to take the top slot. Defending a device is going to be the same. You want to get in and out as fast as you can, then Exploit.

Okay, now stick with me. Agents are like the Pilot program of your vehicle, they "use" the device in your absence, however, they must take a "slot" in your commlink. For example, a commlink with a rating 5 can have an Agent which is rating 5 or 3 or 1. Just as you and the Pilot program cannot be driving your car at the same time, you and your agent cannot be using the commlink at the same time. Agents add their rating X2 to the dice pool (+ program rating of course).

Now here is where I get really funky. IC is part of the firewall of a device. Its rating is limited by the device's Firewall rating and it may run its own programs using the same formula as above. For example a rating 6 IC can run one program at rating 6, two at rating 4, and so on. IC does not count as a program so do not take any "slots" in the device it is operating. However, it cannot venture out of the node of that device.

So there is the beginning of my (mostly disjointed) thoughts. Is it even worth presenting to my players?

[hobgoblin]

i dreamed up a framework back when SR4 first launched, mostly as a reaction to the complaints about software pricing and such.

basically it went something like this:

you get a point pool of response squared, that you can allocate towards various "programs", with a limitation set by system.

tests are stat+skill, limited in hits by relevant "programs".

[Draco18s]

However, a commlink (or device) can only run one program with a rating equal to it's System, two programs with a rating equal to System -2, and so on, with the exception of running as many rating one programs as you want.

For example, a commlink with a System of 6 can run one program at rating 6, two programs at rating 4, three programs at rating 2 and any number of rating one programs.

Just makes the program limits rule more harsh. And no one would do anything but put stealth in the top spot. Without Stealth of win, you lose.

eg:
System detected your hack (before bypassing firewall). Result: "Door is jammed." (That is, you will not get access)
System detects your hack as you move around in the node. Result: Painful, potentially lethal, cybercombat subgame.
System detects you doing something you shouldn't be. Result: You've been traced.* Now they have a lock on your meat body and Lone Star is on route.

*You didn't bother putting Spoof in your top 2 did you?

[The Monk]

Just makes the program limits rule more harsh. And no one would do anything but put stealth in the top spot. Without Stealth of win, you lose.

eg:
System detected your hack (before bypassing firewall). Result: "Door is jammed." (That is, you will not get access)
System detects your hack as you move around in the node. Result: Painful, potentially lethal, cybercombat subgame.
System detects you doing something you shouldn't be. Result: You've been traced.* Now they have a lock on your meat body and Lone Star is on route.

*You didn't bother putting Spoof in your top 2 did you?

Depending on Stealth to get the job done is a little iffy unless you are Probing the Target or you are a Technomancer with Stealth of 10+.

I mean what is a Stealth of 6 if you are Hacking on the Fly? Let's say the device you are hacking into has a Firewall of 4, and you are trying for a security access. The device is rolling 8 dice to find you (since it's probably running an Analyze at 4 as well), and you need 7 successes to get in. The device will find you in two rolls three if you are lucky.

Which means that you need to get 7 successes on the first try at Exploit, if you want to be sure. Which means you need a dice pool of 21! And this is a rather easy device. What if the firewall is 5 and you need an admin account?

Besides, how does the door get jammed even if the system detects an intrusion? Couldn't you continue with your hack and open that door anyways? Once you're in you are a Matrix Perception away from opening that door.

[Wandering One]

The biggest problem with the Matrix, in general, is the 'separate dungeon' issue. This is all well and good if your players are a team of hackers (actually was incredibly fun in the old SR2 rules), but the biggest issue, and non-congruity, is that only the hacker is in his dungeon... noone else is.

This core failure is the design flaw. The complication, or lack thereof, of the rules is secondary. So, starting from this core premise, instead of treating him as a separate combatant, he needs to become the 'thief' of the group, the specialized guy that you need RIGHT THERE but isn't going to be abusing orcs. Yes, I'm already sorry for the reference to 'the other game', but it's part of the issue.

So, keeping the wireless component of the matrix is useful but you have to wallpaper every room to destroy connections or they open up the front door and travel by mind through the rest.

To this, if I were to rebuild the system, I'd start (sadly) with throwing programs out the window, like mentioned above. You're a professional data thief, you've got whatever software it is you're going to need. Instead, build out a separate set of Matrix Skills completely (Matrix Stealth, Login Exploitation, DataSearch (hey, wait, we've got that one!!), CodeCombat), and some of the software would go directly to hardware to keep the hackers in league with the sammies that they're cash driven (biofeedback filter, armor, etc). Square or Cube the prices to keep it in league with the Sammies. Now attach skills to attribute so they don't 'break' the game with a dump stat that makes no sense.

Now alter the intent and effect of attempting to hack the system. You don't hack the 'nexus', you hack unique locations. IE: Hack the maglock, or use a sequencer. Hack the automated turrets or blow them apart. Log into the computer with the data and find your treasure. Hack into the floor and override the pressure detection system or use ziplines. Assume the primary control point has 6^6 Data Bombs on the ports and Black Ice with Analyze 12(optimization 6) sitting in each system waiting for your happy ass. These are AAA corporations with budgets the size of second world countries. They can program up one of these and distribute a copy to EVERY damned computer on their network if they wanted, treat it rationally. But, it takes up processor space that locks and subsystems don't have and you don't want lagged down by it.

End result: Change the hacker into a team player rather then a tagalong with his own dungeon. It's the only way to bring the Matrix into the game regularly and intelligently.

Side note: I love hackers, and I adore the old SR2 rules which apparently are unloved, and I know why. I enjoy the complexity and the utterly different world it brings. It's also utterly useless in a game of 8 players where a GM has to design two entire adventures at once, continuously. The only way to 'fix' hacking is remove the dungeon that noone else interacts with.

[Draco18s]

The biggest problem with the Matrix, in general, is the 'separate dungeon' issue.

Now alter the intent and effect of attempting to hack the system. You don't hack the 'nexus', you hack unique locations. IE: Hack the maglock, or use a sequencer. Hack the automated turrets or blow them apart. Log into the computer with the data and find your treasure. Hack into the floor and override the pressure detection system or use ziplines.

End result: Change the hacker into a team player rather then a tagalong with his own dungeon. It's the only way to bring the Matrix into the game regularly and intelligently.

This. Thisthisthisthis.

[hobgoblin]

that can be done today, with spoof, AR and a security node that the hacker is idling in.

doing searches on the node will tell what hardware is hooked to it, that the hacker can disable while the team is passing by.

even if everything is wired, a initial stealth job on a camera or similar to install a splice and a radio is all it takes. Heck, unwired have a microdrone specifically for the task.

[Wandering One]

that can be done today, with spoof, AR and a security node that the hacker is idling in.

This is part of the failure point. Separate dungeon to run through, fight through, and explore separately. It needs to be same time, real time, same space. A complete rewrite of the rules and the methodology.

[hobgoblin]

This is part of the failure point. Separate dungeon to run through, fight through, and explore separately. It needs to be same time, real time, same space. A complete rewrite of the rules and the methodology.

huh? so he will need to physically sweep the room for traps before hacking them?

if thats the case, just toss the comlink and go with electronics skill...

or maybe you should check out cpv3, where the hacker is the summoner of nanodust monsters...

[Wandering One]

huh? so he will need to physically sweep the room for traps before hacking them?

if thats the case, just toss the comlink and go with electronics skill...

or maybe you should check out cpv3, where the hacker is the summoner of nanodust monsters...

Nanodust monsters... twitch. Besides, that's the rigger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway, I wasn't thinking quite *that* extreme to sweep the room, but I guess taken to the logical endpoint it could reach that level without further description. I'm thinking more along the lines of a mage in a room, just an electronic one. IE: The wireless parts (or at least wireless connectivity) would still be useful, you just wouldn't be hacking into the primary tangle of the system, just the independent external nodes. Which, yes, you could do with enough electronics skill, but that would take more time. The asset the hacker/techno/whateverish brings to the team is alternative options, speed, and a lack of evidence of tampering.

For some examples: Re-wiring a turret to shutdown is obvious tampering. Hacking it to add the runners to its don't detect/don't shoot list is much less invasive. Breaking a lock off and swapping wires takes time whereas a hacker hopping in and switching it to open doesn't leave fingerprints.

Our new, improved, team-friendly hacker would be more magish in abilities. "Auto-Turret! Duck! Hey, Hacker?" "One sec, logging in... okay, I've added our comms to its friendly list, we're good to move." Move another room/hallway in... "Camera!" "One sec... login... crap, failed." "Okay, mage, invis us?" "Trying again... okay, I've aimed it at the ceiling and looped an image to the feed for the guards, we're good."

It's kinda the same way that mages will look around and deal with watchers or spirits in the astral, especially inside wards. They're probably not doing it from afar (though they'll probably have ran an astral recon from their ward/lodge) as they're already there providing support. They can detect them for the others, and choose how to deal with them. The key here is that it's not in a different dungeon. If there's a way to do the whole 'central node' breakin and enemies and the like without doing a different dungeon that's unique from everyone else, I'm for it, but I don't see how to get there. It's practically a requirement for that method of play.

[Draco18s]

I think I'll make a slightly different analogy here.

The mage is closest to the Medic in Team Fortress 2: He buffs, heals, and augments the rest of the party, but could be configured to be a "Battle Medic." *

The hacker is the Spy: He disables turrets and causes confusion in the enemy ranks.** But can only do so at close range.^

*Which are terrible in TF2, because that's not their primary function.
**No, an SR hacker shouldn't be expected to backstab for instakills.
^There's a mod that gives all classes some neat abilities, the one for the spy that's relevant here is the long-range sapper, allowing a spy to disable devices in an area from medium range, for a short period of time. SR hackers are like this.

[Saint Sithney]

I like using programs in the same way as an autopicker, except that, in both the case of programs and the autopicker, if you're not using it to substitute for a skill that you don't have, you don't get the full bonus, you just get a teamwork bonus. But, I make matrix biz a logic + skill deal with the programs as a bonus. I also make hacking on the fly much easier.