Rust-Colored Dreams, Fragments of What Might Have Been Options

[BlueMax]

Er, could someone please explain what exactly Desert Wars are? They're mentioned everywhere, but explanations seem scarce..

Corp Sponsored War ...teams... kinda like American Football ... with guns.

<silly>
So Corp A wants Corp B's facility in country Z. Instead of just kicking down the door and damaging the facility, they issue a
Batchall
Then the Corp B announces is the location and terms of combat.
After landing in the desert, the two Corp
Touman
follow the
Zellbrigen
With the winner taking the facility, or possibly a fee for failing to take the facility.

</silly>

Or was it that silly?
BlueMax

[Ancient History]

The Desert Wars started out as a set-piece confrontation between two corps who had failed every other way of resolving their particular business conflict, so they took a bunch of paramilitary forces out into the post-nuke Libyan desert and staged a battle to decide the event. This was televised, got good ratings, and was expanded into a regular series of events, which expanded on into other deserts around the world.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Beautiful, AH! I've got a mini-campaign coming up in a coupla months, and I think I know where it's going to take place.

[Stahlseele]

Bobby, did we tell you that you are awesome in the last couple of days?
If not, consider it done now. You have certainly earned it. Again. ^^

[Synner]

Does anybody know if any upcoming books, War!, Almanac, etc, might touch on the Desert Wars? It's been hit tangentally in a few books, merc relations with it, etc, but none of the books I have actually seem to define what the Desert Wars really are.

Desert Wars were to recieve a mini-introduction in Corporate Guide but since that material featured in Ancient History's draft I'm not sure if they'll be included in the rewritten drafts.

My plan was for Desert Wars (1 and 2, the SOX RadWars, and a new naval variant) to get their own chapter in a Military/Merc book tentatively called Dogs of War (you know, the Military/Merc book the fans have been demanding for ages). This, as part of my integrated approach to the Shadowrun line development, was to plug into a specific setting event/plotline (which CGL has since transformed into War!). Unfortunately, CGL has apparently tossed the format and idea behind Dogs of War and from what I've been able to gather War! is a significantly different animal (one which is unlikely to feature Desert Wars preeminently).

[outlawpoet]

My plan was for Desert Wars (1 and 2, the SOX RadWars, and a new naval variant) to get their own chapter in a Military/Merc book tentatively called Dogs of War (you know, the Military/Merc book the fans have been demanding for ages). This, as part of my integrated approach to the Shadowrun line development, was to plug into a specific setting event/plotline (which CGL has since transformed into War!). Unfortunately, CGL has apparently tossed the format and idea behind Dogs of War and from what I've been able to gather War! is a significantly different animal (one which is unlikely to feature Desert Wars preeminently).

Do you have an idea of what kind of mechanics you would use for the use of technology/magic/personnel on a military level? Is a modern SR4 military all strike forces? Indirect fire and standoff air support isn't really represented in the gear and combat rules I've seen, but at a larger unit level you'd expect it to be present, unless magic or higher unit speeds reduces it's effectiveness. There are canon tanks and long-range missiles, but I wouldn't know how to go about constructing force composition for maximum effectiveness.

[Synner]

Do you have an idea of what kind of mechanics you would use for the use of technology/magic/personnel on a military level? Is a modern SR4 military all strike forces? Indirect fire and standoff air support isn't really represented in the gear and combat rules I've seen, but at a larger unit level you'd expect it to be present, unless magic or higher unit speeds reduces it's effectiveness. There are canon tanks and long-range missiles, but I wouldn't know how to go about constructing force composition for maximum effectiveness.

There is a not-insignificant group of Shadowrun fans out there that would love to see a book that portrayed the military and merc organizations (large and small) of 207x in greater detail. There is also a large group of Shadowrun fans out there who would like a book with the high-end military gear, vehicles and weapons that you don't normally see on the streets (and hence weren't included in Arsenal). Additionally there is a portion of the fan-base who would like to see more hardcore Special Ops play as opposed to lowly deniable assets. There are also GMs out there that would like some ready made stats (Ghost Cartels style) for Contacts, vehicles and grunts. Finally, there are fans who would like a look at other aspects of the Sixth World and more content that transcends the perspective of those who live in the shadows/edge of society.

I originally concieved Dogs of War (working title) to answer to all those desires and then some. Think equal parts: Fields of Fire, SOTA63, Cyberpirates (the format rather than the content), Runners' Companion, and the Target... books, in sum, a non-core supplemental/companion book covering all things military (national and corporate) and mercenary. I can honestly say I had quite a complete vision of the "modern" battlefield and the consequences of bringing technology and magic to the mix both in terms of combat and simple military organization - a vision I might add that should please the military enthusiasts outthere who dislike the two-dimensional and ineffective portrayal the military have been saddled with in SR (though both those portrayals have their reasons for being).

Additionally, in line with my integrated approach to Shadowrun product development this release would have tied into the next big plot development, a storyline that would be playable (Ghost Cartels-style) as a traditional shadowrunner campaign or as military/merc campaign and would bring conflict to parts of South and North America (hence bringing into play all the nice toys and content from Dogs of War). The aftermath of this story arc would also set up/plug directly into the next such supplemental/companion book Spy Games (doing for the intelligence world what Dogs of War did for the military/mercs).

Unfortunately, from what last I saw of the product schedule, Catalyst (not, I hasten to add, Jason Hardy) had tranformed Dogs of War into a backup chapter of War!, transformed that into a location/storyline book and shifted the plot from the original idea. Spy Games has apparently been equally transformed and bears little resemblance to my original concept...

[Saint Sithney]

Gaaah! Put it all in a series of PDF-only web releases to be compiled into a yearly book!

All these sideline things would make perfect PDF releases! Embrace the new paradigm and make some monthly content happen!

[Fuchs]

There is a not-insignificant group of Shadowrun fans out there that would love to see a book that portrayed the military and merc organizations (large and small) of 207x in greater detail. There is also a large group of Shadowrun fans out there who would like a book with the high-end military gear, vehicles and weapons that you don't normally see on the streets (and hence weren't included in Arsenal). Additionally there is a portion of the fan-base who would like to see more hardcore Special Ops play as opposed to lowly deniable assets. There are also GMs out there that would like some ready made stats (Ghost Cartels style) for Contacts, vehicles and grunts. Finally, there are fans who would like a look at other aspects of the Sixth World and more content that transcends the perspective of those who live in the shadows/edge of society.

I originally concieved Dogs of War (working title) to answer to all those desires and then some. Think equal parts: Fields of Fire, SOTA63, Cyberpirates (the format rather than the content), Runners' Companion, and the Target... books, in sum, a non-core supplemental/companion book covering all things military (national and corporate) and mercenary. I can honestly say I had quite a complete vision of the "modern" battlefield and the consequences of bringing technology and magic to the mix both in terms of combat and simple military organization - a vision I might add that should please the military enthusiasts outthere who dislike the two-dimensional and ineffective portrayal the military have been saddled with in SR (though both those portrayals have their reasons for being).

Additionally, in line with my integrated approach to Shadowrun product development this release would have tied into the next big plot development, a storyline that would be playable (Ghost Cartels-style) as a traditional shadowrunner campaign or as military/merc campaign and would bring conflict to parts of South and North America (hence bringing into play all the nice toys and content from Dogs of War). The aftermath of this story arc would also set up/plug directly into the next such supplemental/companion book Spy Games (doing for the intelligence world what Dogs of War did for the military/mercs).

Unfortunately, from what last I saw of the product schedule, Catalyst (not, I hasten to add, Jason Hardy) had tranformed Dogs of War into a backup chapter of War!, transformed that into a location/storyline book and shifted the plot from the original idea. Spy Games has apparently been equally transformed and bears little resemblance to my original concept...

God, I want those books you planned. I want them really badly.

[SirBedevere]

Thank you AH and Synner for posting what you have here; it's much appreciated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If only . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Nal0n]

God, I want those books you planned. I want them really badly.

Signed, want them too!!!

[Dumori]

If War! ends up being like ghost cartels I'll be very sad. Seeing as something like Dog of War has been promised a few times admittedly those who promised said book no longer work for CGL but still.

[Synner]

From what I've been able to gather War! won't follow the Ghost Cartels format either, though Jason will probably be able to clarify further.

FYI -Had my original plan gone ahead the "War" campaign book(s) that would be released following Dogs of War would have used the Ghost Cartels sandbox/framework format (as opposed to Brainscan/Harlequin type episodic campaign format, or the old MobWar/Blood in the Boardroom campaign format), so if you didn't like that then you probably wouldn't have liked the campaign books.

[Dumori]

I'm not saying I didn't like ghost cartels I'm saying the War! being like that would be a disappointment due to what we've been told War! would cover in detail. As it was originally told to us with would be a source book. Now its a campaign/source-book hybrid. Something that likely won't cover every thing we where told it will.

[Werewindlefr]

Per individual, baseline minimums.

The damned thing is, I don't know when I wrote that article or why.

You know what would be really nice? A guideline for the pay for real shadowruns. The ones that are more than just "a simple task". The kind that are really adventures, not 30-minutes actions.
Well, the $20.000 for the extraction is actually a good base to start with. I mean, an extraction is always a full adventure; I guess it's a good standard unit for comparison.

[Stahlseele]

Run itself: 3W6+2=5-20k
Bonus: 2W6+3=1500-5000
Or anything like that.

[Ancient History]

The problem is, there's not a good baseline (really, any investigation of how much it takes to kill a person online will show you wildly different numbers). You have to take into account the consequences of the job (who you're targeting, how illegal the action is), the difficulty of the job (from both a technical and oh-fuck-they've-got-guns/hellhounds/tanks standpoint), the benefit to the employer (in nuyen), the reputation of the team, the amount of support they get, and the employer's means.

Which I suppose could be done with different tables and work up a formula. [Base cost for crime (years in prison x 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) * technical difficulty (1-7, based on average skill/device rating needed) ^ danger difficulty (1-5, depending on professional rating and other factors) + percentage (25% +/- up to 25% based on the runner's street cred) * of the benefit of the target (annual salary of an extracted employee, street cost of goods or info, etc.) - material support provided by the employer ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) )] * factor of the employer's means (0.5-3, depending on whether the employer took out a mortgage to pay for the run or is a megacorp)

[outlawpoet]

Unfortunately, from what last I saw of the product schedule, Catalyst (not, I hasten to add, Jason Hardy) had tranformed Dogs of War into a backup chapter of War!, transformed that into a location/storyline book and shifted the plot from the original idea. Spy Games has apparently been equally transformed and bears little resemblance to my original concept...

I can see business reasons why this sort of detail-oriented, mechanic heavy, high level meta work would get pushed behind more easy to integrate storylines and products, but I am really sad I won't get to see what you had in mind. At least not in that form.

When I strike it rich and buy Shadowrun from Topps, I'll come calling, though. So make some notes so you can recreate all this stuff.

[TW]

I can see business reasons why this sort of detail-oriented, mechanic heavy, high level meta work would get pushed behind more easy to integrate storylines and products, ...

Not neccessarily. Gearbooks usually outsell plotbooks, as the latter are bought mostly by the group's GM, while GM and players might buy books containing gear and crunch.

[Synner]

I can see business reasons why this sort of detail-oriented, mechanic heavy, high level meta work would get pushed behind more easy to integrate storylines and products, but I am really sad I won't get to see what you had in mind. At least not in that form.

Personally I don't agree, which is why I had scheduled the book in the first place. As Tobias mentioned above Gear/Crunch books almost always outsell setting books - there's just more of a base audience for rules/gear/crunch where as setting material is hit and miss depending on the group and style and play.

Rob and I agreed early on that the best course for SR4 would be to keep the core books to the Big Six (SR4 Core/SR4A, Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal, Unwired, Runners' Companion). This was both to fight rules bloat and to keep things focused on a core system. We also made a conscious decision to seperate rules from fluff in the books.

To be perfectly blunt though, it's in the interest of the publisher to put out crunch books simply because they sell better. Consequently, I devised a compromise: a series of entirely optional themed rules/crunch/setting supplementals (sandbox alternative "campaign rulebooks") that expand the scope of play within the Sixth World setting beyond traditional shadowrun (while at the same time plugging into the general developing metaplot of the rest of the line). I had planned a number of such "supplementals" (ie. Military/Mercs, Espionage, Media, Space, and Magic) and mapped out the plotline and setting books for the next few years to highlight those themes/content.

[otakusensei]

To be perfectly blunt though, it's in the interest of the publisher to put out crunch books simply because they sell better. Consequently, I devised a compromise: a series of entirely optional themed rules/crunch/setting supplementals (sandbox alternative "campaign rulebooks") that expand the scope of play within the Sixth World setting beyond traditional shadowrun (while at the same time plugging into the general developing metaplot of the rest of the line). I had planned a number of such "supplementals" (ie. Military/Mercs, Espionage, Media, Space, and Magic) and mapped out the plotline and setting books for the next few years to highlight those themes/content.

Damn, that sounds like exactly what I want.

Core Rule Book. New players pick it up, figure out what they want to do and get to know the game.

Source Books. New players pick up the ones that interest them, the Vet at the table picks them all put. GM uses them to enrich the setting and make things interesting.

Supplimentals. What do you do when you have the group that knows everything about everything? That lists off the stats for the Juggernaut before you're done with the flavor text? You send them up the gravity well and see how they deal with customs on a space platform. Or embed them with a merc outfit in some God forsaken desert and see how they like the taste of camel spider.

You have so many options just by looking at the setting from a different angle. I hope I get a chance to buy books like this one day.

[outlawpoet]

To be perfectly blunt though, it's in the interest of the publisher to put out crunch books simply because they sell better. Consequently, I devised a compromise: a series of entirely optional themed rules/crunch/setting supplementals (sandbox alternative "campaign rulebooks") that expand the scope of play within the Sixth World setting beyond traditional shadowrun (while at the same time plugging into the general developing metaplot of the rest of the line). I had planned a number of such "supplementals" (ie. Military/Mercs, Espionage, Media, Space, and Magic) and mapped out the plotline and setting books for the next few years to highlight those themes/content.

Let me pile on and say that I think that is a great idea. Military/Mercs and Magic are both expansions I would be incredibly interested in, even if it involved subjects far from the mainstream of usable shadows material.

[Ancient History]

I still have my notes for the advanced magic sourcebook.

[otakusensei]

I still have my notes for the advanced magic sourcebook.

It's comments like this that make it very hard for me to wait patiently...

[Ascalaphus]

I still have my notes for the advanced magic sourcebook.

You tease (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)