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> Enhanced Articulartion, not usable on *some* physical tests?
wind_in_the_ston...
post Apr 22 2010, 05:02 AM
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Enhanced articulation: +1 dice pool on any test involving physical skills that are linked to physical attributes.

I'm going to assume that this "physical skills" phrase is a general one, not referring to the "physical active skills" category. Otherwise it wouldn't apply to combat skills, and that's just dumb. Escape Artist is okay, but Dodge isn't?

Which brings us to the next issue... You can use it on a full dodge, because Dodge is a physical skill linked to a physical attribute. But you can't on a standard dodge against firearms, since that's not a skill test.

Does anybody see a reason to disallow EA on a dodge?
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Banaticus
post Apr 22 2010, 05:31 AM
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Cheese?
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 22 2010, 05:59 AM
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+1 to everything is good enough. It's not a skill test, so yes, no dice.

Fluff it as pure reflexes, no skill involved, when it's only Reaction.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 22 2010, 06:03 AM
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If it really bothers you, just change it so that it gives a bonus on Agility and Reaction tests. Or just make it a flat bonus to both of those attributes with the addenum "stacks with everything." Then you can let the augmented maximum rules keep it in check.

I don't see why it would affect your actual skill, personally. That's what Reflex Recorders and the like are for.
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Glyph
post Apr 22 2010, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Apr 21 2010, 10:02 PM) *
Does anybody see a reason to disallow EA on a dodge?

For the reason that your initial assumption is wrong. If they were not referring to Physical skills as a category, they would not have capitalized "Physical". Just dumb? Sure, but lots of SR4 rules are kind of dumb.

So the real question becomes, if you are going to house rule it to work on combat skills, will it work on dodge, too? I would say - why not? If you're going to let it work on combat skills, dodge shouldn't be treated any differently. I think if you house rule it to work on combat skills, though, it will go back to being the no-brainer must-have that is was in SR3. Which is fine, if you don't see any problems with that.
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Bull
post Apr 22 2010, 06:16 AM
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We've always rules that it works on any test that involves dexterity, mobility, or flexibility. So pretty much most Reaction or Agility based tests, and a few Strength tests.

Bull
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Nyost Akasuke
post Apr 22 2010, 06:34 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 21 2010, 11:16 PM) *
We've always rules that it works on any test that involves dexterity, mobility, or flexibility. So pretty much most Reaction or Agility based tests, and a few Strength tests.

Bull


That's what I thought it did (before I actually read the entry).

If I was a GM, I'd follow this logic. =)
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ClemulusRex
post Apr 22 2010, 08:40 AM
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Oh, wow. I had been making the same assumption by not reading it closely enough. I guess I'm too used to older editions where it added to all Physical, Combat, Technical and B/R skills. I realize why they cut Technical skills from the list (as well as removing the reaction bonus) for 4th ed., but I agree that for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40k, you should also get the bonus to Combat skills and maybe non-rigged Vehicle tests. Hell, it really does make sense for any skills tied to Physical stats. Infiltration, palming, etc.
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D2F
post Apr 22 2010, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Apr 22 2010, 06:02 AM) *
Enhanced articulation: +1 dice pool on any test involving physical skills that are linked to physical attributes.

I'm going to assume that this "physical skills" phrase is a general one, not referring to the "physical active skills" category. Otherwise it wouldn't apply to combat skills, and that's just dumb. Escape Artist is okay, but Dodge isn't?

Which brings us to the next issue... You can use it on a full dodge, because Dodge is a physical skill linked to a physical attribute. But you can't on a standard dodge against firearms, since that's not a skill test.

Does anybody see a reason to disallow EA on a dodge?

By the RAW, it works on physical active skills only. Earlier editions had them as a global modifier, and they were too good back then. Consider it a balancing issue.
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DWC
post Apr 22 2010, 02:41 PM
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I saw the change in SR4 and wrote it off as a deliberate change to reduce the effectiveness of Enhanced Articulation. If EA applied to every skill linked to a physical attribute, then it would be a superior to the much more invasive and rare suprathyroid.
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SpellBinder
post Apr 22 2010, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Apr 21 2010, 10:02 PM) *
Does anybody see a reason to disallow EA on a dodge?

Not at all, especially if it's a Gymnastics Dodge (SR4a, page 160).
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Banaticus
post Apr 22 2010, 05:12 PM
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Combat skills *are* physical skills that are linked to a physical attribute. SR4A p120, Gunnery, Pistols, Palming, Diving, Pilot Vehicles, Climbing, Running, Unarmed Combat, etc. So, this does add to all of those and it specifically stacks with everything. The description doesn't say "any physical skill test", it's any test (which involves a physical skill linked to a physical attribute). Combat has dice pools, it is a test and that test involves a physical skill (pistols, for instance, or unarmed combat) linked to a physical attribute (agility). So, yeah, this adds to regular dodge, full dodge, combat tests, as well as all the fun stuff that's not normally part of combat.
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DWC
post Apr 22 2010, 05:16 PM
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Combat Active Skills and Physical Active Skills are two completely separate categories. The text capitalizes Physical skills because it is referring to this specific category of skills.
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ClemulusRex
post Apr 22 2010, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Apr 22 2010, 03:41 PM) *
I saw the change in SR4 and wrote it off as a deliberate change to reduce the effectiveness of Enhanced Articulation. If EA applied to every skill linked to a physical attribute, then it would be a superior to the much more invasive and rare suprathyroid.


Hmmm. I don't *entirely* agree. It would certainly make it more bang for your buck (in terms of Essence), but the suprathyroid actually increases the stats themselves rather than adding dice. That means an extra die for damage resistance, an extra point of Initiative, an extra passive defense die, and potentially more melee damage. Barring Availability restrictions, I would probably eat the .4 Essence and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5k difference and spring for the suprathyroid.

Actually, I'd just get both.

I do have to put my foot in my mouth a little bit from my earlier post, though. I forgot that the Stealth group skills actually are Physical skills, thus rendering part of my complaint moot.

That said, I could see the Enhanced Articulation not effecting, say, Firearms skills, but why not the "gross motor" Combat skills like the Close Combat group, Throw, and Dodge? If an augmentation adding to my limberness and fluidity of motion is going to help me run, jump, swim and climb better, then why isn't it helping me punch, kick, throw, duck and dive as well? If melee combat is as underpowered as people say, then why not throw it a bone?

This post has been edited by ClemulusRex: Apr 22 2010, 08:43 PM
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 22 2010, 08:30 PM
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Yes, the benefits of a Suprathyroid Gland is superior since it would affect Body rolls, too, and applies equally to all tests (Damage Resistance included), not just skill tests. Enhanced Articulation wouldn't do the same by a long shot, even if modified in the way a few people have mentioned in this thread (turning it into a flat bonus to Reaction and Agility only, and maybe a few Strength tests in some situations; I personally disagree with that part). There's also the point that they would still be able to stack with each other.
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Kerenshara
post Apr 22 2010, 09:19 PM
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You know, I've always read it as only affecting the Physical Skills group. The 2nd Ed version gave a stat-mod IIRC, which was pretty powerful. The way the description reads of the 'ware, it sounds like it's only for more gross "physical" tasks like running and jumping and swimming, as opposed to the kind of jerky reactionary actions that happen in combat or when driving. By the same token, I mentally lumped it in with the Adept Power: Nimble Fingers which gives a bonus to palming but not to shooting or using/throwing a knife which arguably could benefit from supernatural fingertip dexterity... Or other more adult-oriented skills, not that I think about it.

Hey, if you were going to come up with an "X-Rated" active skill (Seduction is a specialization of Bluff), that would be the [lesser of AGIlity or BODy] and under the Physical Active group, right? It's would therefore benefit from Enhanced Articulation... I wonder if you could add Nimble Fingers too?

*grin*

Hey, it's been a [multiple colorful metaphors deleted] day, so I'm entitled to a little silliness answering a good question.
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Apr 23 2010, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (ClemulusRex @ Apr 22 2010, 03:40 AM) *
Oh, wow. I had been making the same assumption by not reading it closely enough.


Just hang around Dumpshock a while longer, and you'll get the hang of reading every last detail into the wording of a rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Personally, I like Bull's answer the best...
QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 22 2010, 01:16 AM) *
We've always rules that it works on any test that involves dexterity, mobility, or flexibility. So pretty much most Reaction or Agility based tests, and a few Strength tests.

If I wanted to try for some game balance by way of "not every last physical skill," I would exclude firearms and projectile skills.

Play by RAW if you want, but it doesn't really make any sense to me.

Thanks, folks!
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KCKitsune
post Apr 23 2010, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Apr 22 2010, 11:22 PM) *
If I wanted to try for some game balance by way of "not every last physical skill," I would exclude firearms and projectile skills.

Why not? I mean let's face it, to get that one die you have to spend 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and .3 Essence. EA is nice, but not over powered.

You can get Muscle Toner 2 as alpha ware and save 8000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but cost 0.02 Essence more. This gives you two dice for every skill that requires Agility. Another option is to get Muscle Toner 1 and Synthacardium 1. This combo gives you +1 Agility and +1 die to all Athletics tests. So you can get that Gymnastics dodge bonus AND save 22,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Apr 23 2010, 04:25 AM
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Well, I did say "if". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That would be my bargaining chip if my co-players wanted to argue the stricter view.

Good point, though. Thanks.
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Udoshi
post Apr 23 2010, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 22 2010, 09:14 PM) *
Why not? I mean let's face it, to get that one die you have to spend 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and .3 Essence. EA is nice, but not over powered.

You can get Muscle Toner 2 as alpha ware and save 8000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but cost 0.02 Essence more. This gives you two dice for every skill that requires Agility. Another option is to get Muscle Toner 1 and Synthacardium 1. This combo gives you +1 Agility and +1 die to all Athletics tests. So you can get that Gymnastics dodge bonus AND save 22,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)


That doesn't work, unfortunately.

Agility adds to Gymnastics, but not to Gymnastics Dodge. For Full defense, which you need to gymdodge, you roll Reaction, not Agility. (If you had a bonus to agility-linked skills, it would apply, but not the base stat in this case.)

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KCKitsune
post Apr 23 2010, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 23 2010, 12:33 AM) *
That doesn't work, unfortunately.

Agility adds to Gymnastics, but not to Gymnastics Dodge. For Full defense, which you need to gymdodge, you roll Reaction, not Agility. (If you had a bonus to agility-linked skills, it would apply, but not the base stat in this case.)

But syntacardium would add +1 to gymdodge because it is an Athletics test, so you get the bonus of EA, but MUCH damn cheaper.
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SpellBinder
post Apr 23 2010, 04:49 AM
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Synthacardium & Enhanced Articulation? Yeah, I can see that working together on a Gymnastics Dodge.

Even on its own, a rating 3 Synthacardium is just as invasive on the body & just as easily available as EA, is cheaper than EA by 10k, and gives a +3 to the Athletics skills where EA only gives a +1.

At least EA gives a bonus to a few skills beyond the Athletics group. If you've got the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) & essence to burn, you can get both and they stack.
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Kronk2
post Apr 23 2010, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Apr 22 2010, 01:16 AM) *
We've always rules that it works on any test that involves dexterity, mobility, or flexibility. So pretty much most Reaction or Agility based tests, and a few Strength tests.

Bull

Can we go with that being the intent of the rule, if not the letter of it?
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wind_in_the_ston...
post Apr 25 2010, 06:37 PM
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Kronk, yes, you can do that if you want. I'm going to.

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 22 2010, 11:33 PM) *
That doesn't work, unfortunately.

Agility adds to Gymnastics, but not to Gymnastics Dodge. For Full defense, which you need to gymdodge, you roll Reaction, not Agility. (If you had a bonus to agility-linked skills, it would apply, but not the base stat in this case.)



I think his point was that a couple of pieces of 'ware, for a similar cost (or less), affect a similar number (or more) of different tests.
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