Why would a technomancer rigger want to jump into a camera?, Especially since they have to hack it to get in Options

[Banaticus]

Ok, so a technomancer rigger (resonance 6) goes through submersion, raising his resonance attribute cap by 1 (13 karma), then raises his resonance to 7 (35 karma). He chooses the Immersion echo, which basically gives +1 dice to everything he does while jumped in. He then goes through submersion again (16 karma) then raises his resonance to 8 (40 karma) and chooses the advanced echo, Mind Over Machine which lets him "jump into" any wireless device, such as a camera, a commlink, etc., but he has to hack into it like normal first.

So, what's the point? If you're going to hack into something then you're in -- you can issue commands. Why would you care about "jumping into" a camera or commlink when you can just sit back and (having already hacked) issue commands?

[SpellBinder]

Think bigger, like vehicles that are not normally rigger adapted.

With Mind Over Machine, a TM can become like K.I.T.T. in any vehicle.

[Banaticus]

But if you hack the vehicle, can't you issue commands like that anyway?

[Udoshi]

Immersion is incredibly useful. Expensive, but useful, particularly if a TM has lost one point of essence for some augmentations.

Control Rigs add +2 to any Vehicle Test wile jumped in.

Immersion adds +1 to all tasks while jumped in, and you can take it twice. -all tasks-. Things that aren't vehicle tests. Its like another hotsim bonus.

They also stack.

[D2F]

Immersion is incredibly useful. Expensive, but useful, particularly if a TM has lost one point of essence for some augmentations.

Control Rigs add +2 to any Vehicle Test wile jumped in.

Immersion adds +1 to all tasks while jumped in, and you can take it twice. -all tasks-. Things that aren't vehicle tests. Its like another hotsim bonus.

They also stack.

Who says a TM cannot create "Control Rig" Comlex Form?

[Udoshi]

Who says a TM cannot create "Control Rig" Comlex Form?

.... I hadn't thought about that. If they can create Simrigs and Smartlinks, Control Rig isn't too far-fetched.

[SpellBinder]

Yes, once hacked you can issue commands, but the a vehicle is dumb compared to most drones (Pilot 1 or 2 for most vehicles; most drones are Pilot 3). Issue Command is a Simple Action, but then the vehicle must perform that action. It might be confused as well, especially if you try to tell a car to run someone over (would actually be against the programming of many vehicle Pilots). Remote Control can take care of that, but you're still running slower, and every action is a Complex Action.

While jumped in, the vehicle responds at your initiative and to your will. You are the car. If you want to run someone over, you just do it.

And Udoshi, if you've got a physical Control Rig, don't forget the Control Rig Booster nanoware system. It adds its rating (max 3) to the character's Pilot skills while jumped in. Get a cyberhand (capacity 4) and install a nanohive (takes 2 capacity) to maintain the nanites, and you've spent only 0.75 essence with the Control Rig.

[rumanchu]

But if you hack the vehicle, can't you issue commands like that anyway?

Once you've hacked into a vehicle, there are three ways to get it to (for example) take shots at the car full of bad guys:

1) using a Simple action, issue a command to the Pilot of the vehicle. When the Pilot's action comes up in the initiative order, it will roll Pilot+Targeting for weapon attacks

2) using a Complex action, remote control the vehicle to do *one* task, rolling either Command+Gunnery (for shooting) or Command+Vehicle (for vehicle tests)

3) *if* you can jump-in, you can shoot the gun using Sensor+Gunnery; since a Technomancer is in hot-sim, he gets to add 2 to his pool for this test, and 2 ranks in Immersion will add an additional 2 to the pool

The key thing to remember about the Mind Over Machine echo is that it lets you jump into *any* wireless device -- which would include devices that don't have Pilots in them. Another thing to remember is that a jumped-in rigger automatically overrides any other form of control of the device, which can be *super powerful*. Jump into someone's triggerless smartgun, and they can't shoot it anymore. Jump-in to their commlink, and they can't call for help. Jump-in to their accounting node and they can't run payroll. Sure, with proper rights you could control any of these things, but you can do this with just basic access...AUTOMATICALLY.

[otakusensei]

The key thing to remember about the Mind Over Machine echo is that it lets you jump into *any* wireless device -- which would include devices that don't have Pilots in them. Another thing to remember is that a jumped-in rigger automatically overrides any other form of control of the device, which can be *super powerful*. Jump into someone's triggerless smartgun, and they can't shoot it anymore. Jump-in to their commlink, and they can't call for help. Jump-in to their accounting node and they can't run payroll. Sure, with proper rights you could control any of these things, but you can do this with just basic access...AUTOMATICALLY.

Plus for normal nexi and commlinks it's automatic SuperAdmin status, and there can be only one. Per the Electronics Warfare section of SR4A, the device is protected against hacking and spoofing while you are logged in.

[Udoshi]

And Udoshi, if you've got a physical Control Rig, don't forget the Control Rig Booster nanoware system. It adds its rating (max 3) to the character's Pilot skills while jumped in. Get a cyberhand (capacity 4) and install a nanohive (takes 2 capacity) to maintain the nanites, and you've spent only 0.75 essence with the Control Rig.

Control rig Boosters are -ass-. they add to your -one skill-. Not your dice pool for everything you do. If you look at the 'common rigger rolls' the only thing it helps with is Maneuvering.

[Yerameyahu]

They add to exactly what he said: Piloting.

[Ryu]

And here I thought Gunnery was a Vehicle Skill...

[Dumori]

It is but control rig boosters only effect you piolt skill not vehicle ones.

[Udoshi]

They add to exactly what he said: Piloting.

Yes. Yes they do. However, they also block you from taking Simsense boosters, which are much much better for a rigger.

[rumanchu]

And here I thought Gunnery was a Vehicle Skill...

That's actually a good point; the rules for Control Rig (SR4A, 338) state that it adds +2 to all "Vehicle skill tests". Since Gunnery is listed as a Vehicle skill ("Vehicle skills are used for driving and vehicle combat", SR4A 128), the Control Rig bonus should apply. (This is further supported by the Being the Machine sidebar on SR4A 245: "For this, a control rig is far more efficient, reflected in the +2 bonus a rigger receives for doing just about anything while jumped into a device.") (emphasis mine).

EDIT: I just double-checked the control rig boosters rules, and they do specifically call out the Piloting skill as being all that gets the bonus

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, it'd be more helpful if you'd said Control Rig Boosters are ass _compared to simsense boosters_. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ryu]

That's actually a good point; the rules for Control Rig (SR4A, 338) state that it adds +2 to all "Vehicle skill tests". Since Gunnery is listed as a Vehicle skill ("Vehicle skills are used for driving and vehicle combat", SR4A 128), the Control Rig bonus should apply. (This is further supported by the Being the Machine sidebar on SR4A 245: "For this, a control rig is far more efficient, reflected in the +2 bonus a rigger receives for doing just about anything while jumped into a device.") (emphasis mine).

EDIT: I just double-checked the control rig boosters rules, and they do specifically call out the Piloting skill as being all that gets the bonus

The "boosters" part didn´t manage to enter my brain, so my previous post is unintentionally misleading. Sorry.

[SpellBinder]

Yes. Yes they do. However, they also block you from taking Simsense boosters, which are much much better for a rigger.

And hurt you if you're a TM. Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking echos net better; +1 Response and +1 Initiative Passes each, and no essence loss.

But for those non-TM riggers, there's still the Simsense Accelerator that does the same thing as the Simsense Booster (Unwired, page 198), is built into the commlink instead, and has no explicit conflict with the Control Rig Booster. If you opt to take both, they stack for a hot-sim VR speed of 5 Initiative Passes.

[Dumori]

Or in the errata planed they'll become combinable. Still the day the release all these erratas that have been mentioned in posts will be away away yet.

[Valashar]

.... I hadn't thought about that. If they can create Simrigs and Smartlinks, Control Rig isn't too far-fetched.

Both of the ones mentioned, Smartlink and Simrig, still require the hardware that the software of the CF interacts with. For smartlink, it's the weapon with a smartlink mod or attachment. For the simrig, it's less 'hardware' and more the implied hot-rigged sim module of the bio-node. So while yes, you could make a CF of the software side of a control rig, you'd still need its specific hardware.

[D2F]

Both of the ones mentioned, Smartlink and Simrig, still require the hardware that the software of the CF interacts with. For smartlink, it's the weapon with a smartlink mod or attachment. For the simrig, it's less 'hardware' and more the implied hot-rigged sim module of the bio-node. So while yes, you could make a CF of the software side of a control rig, you'd still need its specific hardware.

Which would be the Rigger Adaption. Thank you.

[SpellBinder]

As I understand it, Smartlink just requires a TM to have a gun with a SmartGun mod to it. Their ability to naturally perceive ARO's, along with the Smartlink complex form, lets it all work without invasive cyberware or bulky/vulnerable eye wear.

The Simrig complex form allows a TM to create simsense files that can be saved, so all that's necessary is a wireless device with the memory capacity to hold the files. Those files can then be played back via normal simsense modules.

Personally I think that Immersion is supposed to be a TM's version of a Control Rig. I know that RAW there's no conflict between the two, but they're nearly identical.

Concerning the cost versus the benefits of Immersion, I could see pitching that echo entirely for a Complex Form that does the same as a Control Rig; Rating 1 gives you a +1 bonus to all Vehicle tests, Rating 2 (max) gives you a +2 bonus to all Vehicle tests. 2 BP at character creation, or 4 Karma as opposed to the minimum 18 karma you'd spend for in Submersion grades later on; it still costs the same as getting the Control Rig for 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) at character creation.

[Daddy's Litt...]

So, what's the point?

To see what develops? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Sengir]

.... I hadn't thought about that. If they can create Simrigs and Smartlinks, Control Rig isn't too far-fetched.

They sure could, but would not get any bonusses from it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A control rig is a coprocessor for the motor cortex, simulating a coprocessor in software does of course not make the original processor (in this case the brain) any faster. I'm sure many still remember the days of games in software mode and 3D accelerator cards, same concept.

[D2F]

They sure could, but would not get any bonusses from it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A control rig is a coprocessor for the motor cortex, simulating a coprocessor in software does of course not make the original processor (in this case the brain) any faster. I'm sure many still remember the days of games in software mode and 3D accelerator cards, same concept.

That argument was valid until "overclocking".