SR Nuclear Weapons, An Exploration of Nukes in SR Options

[Godwyn]

I got waylaid into this subject by another thread that brought it up, and a longstanding interest in nuclear weapons.

Really, it would depend on the size of the nuke. SR actually has a very simple in game method to do it. As an example, and gratuitous use of wikipedia and answers.com, the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima, which was actually quite small as nukes go, was equivalent to 15 kilotons of TNT. Or, 15000 metric tons.
Which is 15000000 kilograms.
Taking the square root gives 3872 X rating of the explosives.
Using an explosives rating of 3, which is where other conventional ones begin in the Core Book gives 11616 as the damage code for a nuclear bomb.

This actually makes the strength of the bomb more powerful. The base blast radius for Little Boy was 1.6 kilometers, at -2 per meter that gives a remaining strength of 8416. The shrapnel and severe fire extended for about another 1.6 km leaving a strength of 5216 after 3.2 km.

Is what I have calculated up so far. Even though Little Boy was detonated a full .5 km above ground, the damage code is still excessive of where it should be. Not that it should really come up in a game but. . .

Of course, any sufficiently large explosion using the SR rules is going to encounter the same problems, but at those kilogram ranges, the nuke is having double the effect it should.

[Dumori]

The Demo rules are such at low amount you don't blow up enoughs but with big amount you do way more that you would IRL

[hobgoblin]

linear scaling vs diminishing returns?

[Method]

Couldn't the blast attenuate at a rate greater than -2 per meters of radius? Also those rules assume small (sane?) explosions. The attenuation IRL is probably not linear. When you're dealling with relatively short ranges (grenades, rockets, etc) a linear function gives a rough approximation but when you start talking about blast radii measured in KM you probably need a log function or something (I suck at math so I'll let somebody smarter take it from here).

Otherwise I got two words for you: radioactive orichalcum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Otherwise I got two words for you: radioactive orichalcum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

winternight?

[Banaticus]

I think you'd have to start using the destroy a barrier rules with air as the barrier. Probably something like the "shoot through a barrier" rule. If we say that every meter of air has an armor value of 1, then one kilometer would be 1000 armor. So, after 3.2 km, instead of 5200 DV, it'd only be about 2000 DV. Still enough to shred everything in its path, but I think that brings it more in line with reality.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I think you'd have to start using the destroy a barrier rules with air as the barrier. Probably something like the "shoot through a barrier" rule. If we say that every meter of air has an armor value of 1, then one kilometer would be 1000 armor. So, after 3.2 km, instead of 5200 DV, it'd only be about 2000 DV. Still enough to shred everything in its path, but I think that brings it more in line with reality.

Emphasis mine. Really, now I've seen everything there is to see in dumpshock. Circular discussions, stick and shock discussions, drop bears, zombie apocalypse and now, how to calculate the damage caused by a nuclear device and how the damage diminishes along the blast radius.

[Megu]

Speaking of nukes, who all has them in the Sixth World, anyways? I mean, I know there's been some weird stuff going on where they don't work quite the same anymore (TBH, been ignoring that in my campaign). But is there a list of nuclear powers?

My best guesses:
We know Ares does, as far as the megas go. Others, I don't see how it would be profitable for them.
UCAS, France, Russia, Israel and Britain probably all still have them.
I recall something in Shadows of Asia where China's lost most of its stockpile, but I imagine the four main successor states would be working hard to get some of their own.
India probably still does, although Pakistan it sounds like, got most of theirs confiscated by CC operatives after Kashmir.
And I'd really be surprised if Aztlan didn't.
I could see Amazonia not having them, and instead investing in some other kind of WMD (Awakened high magic, bio weapons, who knows?).
Japan? Culturally taboo, so maybe not. Or maybe, since they're the big shots now. Might be that a Japanacorp has the nuclear umbrella? Or it's possible that post Korea-2, they picked up where NK left off.
It strikes me that a lot of the nation-states with their backs against the wall for whatever reason (Sioux, Asamundo) might be trying, at least.
Aside from Sioux, CAS and Pueblo strike me as the most likely North American successor states to have them.
I could see the Tirs pursuing it, as well, considering how much smaller in population they are in comparison to hostile powers like the UCAS.
Azania seems unlikely, but possible, as South Africa had them at one point. They really don't have neighbors strong enough to threaten them, unless the Angolans have them more worried than I think.

What do you guys think? Am I leaving out anything or anyone important?

[The Canterbury T...]

One question, do nukes actually work in Shadowrun? I seem to recall every nuke fired since the start of the sixth world has either disappeared or failed to detonate for various reasons. I seem to recall reading a theory somewhere that nukes simply don't operate in the sixth world anymore.

Doh, Cermac. Never mind.

Oh and as for who has them, Lofwyr through Saeder Krupp, and also Mitsuhama.

[Nal0n]

One question, do nukes actually work in Shadowrun? I seem to recall every nuke fired since the start of the sixth world has either disappeared or failed to detonate for various reasons. I seem to recall reading a theory somewhere that nukes simply don't operate in the sixth world anymore.

Can't be ... they used nukes to kill off all the insect spirits in Chicago, didn't they? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hobgoblin]

cermac was a mess, it was a tac nuke inside a high rating physical barrier during a large scale ritual.

end result is a theory that the blast got somehow channeled onto the astral, at least partially.

the big, city busting nukes have all failed in some way or other.

[Draco18s]

I think you'd have to start using the destroy a barrier rules with air as the barrier. Probably something like the "shoot through a barrier" rule. If we say that every meter of air has an armor value of 1, then one kilometer would be 1000 armor. So, after 3.2 km, instead of 5200 DV, it'd only be about 2000 DV. Still enough to shred everything in its path, but I think that brings it more in line with reality.

1 Armor != -1 DV

[hobgoblin]

and heck, its basically saying the same as the blast drops by 1 pr meter, rather then the "normal" 2 (except if your blast generated fragments).

[Draco18s]

and heck, its basically saying the same as the blast drops by 1 pr meter, rather then the "normal" 2 (except if your blast generated fragments).

And that too. Instead of -2 you're doing -3.

Realistically you'd be doing -1 per distance squared.

-1 per (m*m/3,000) gives us a reasonable value at 3.2 km: 1786 DV. A 5200 DV blast dissipates completely after 3949.6 meters.

[Banaticus]

Doesn't the armor rating of the barrier decrease the DV of the attack? And I'm saying that the air's barrier rating should be used in addition to normal blast attenuation rules (which are for small things where air pressure just doesn't matter as much).

[Draco18s]

Doesn't the armor rating of the barrier decrease the DV of the attack?

No. It adds armor. Which is rolled. Subsequent layers get all the previous layer's armor as an armor bonus.

And that's still linear.

[kjones]

Given the fact that they want to own South American, you know that Aztech has gotta have 'em...

[outlawpoet]

There is a theory that they aren't as powerful as they used to be, and there have been hints that nuclear reactions interact with mana in some way, the Bug City Cermak Blast should have shredded that part of Chicago, but only toasted the hive there.

Dunkelzahn's Secrets includes a drop in about funding a thesis on the relationship between mana and nuclear energy.

Aztlan contains drop in discussion between Big D and some unidentified IEs that Lofwyr controlling nukes is somehow ironic. This may be a reference to his activities in the Fourth World, or could be indicative of their belief that nukes aren't final sanction weapons the way they are portrayed anymore.

The Winternight storyline implies nukes can be moderated via magic, but provides no details. In System Failure, there is the question of how effective nukes would be as final sanctions against the Winternight site. In the aftermath, there is some discussion of whether the yield of the weapons is as expected.

[Method]

I'm going to state the obvious here: accurately calculating the DV of a nuke is totally beyond the scope of any SR game I can imagine. And I would would like to point out that to do so would require the GM to determine the total armor and structure ratings for every building, car, landscape feature, etc between the epicenter and a target. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

Also, TNT is a rating 4 explosive according to Arsenal, so the original proposed DV is conservative.

[Doc Byte]

Who'd use nukes anyhow if Thor shots will do the job just as well without the fallout stuff?

[Method]

Lots of little factions that don't have the space infrastructure to support thor shots, perhaps? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DVSman]

Nukes should just go into the 'Deus Ex Machina' territory as a GM'ing tool. Is some PC / player / rules lawyer going to actually try to argue that they have enough armor or barriers or xyz to be able to survive it? That goes against 2 rules of GMing to begin with.

1) You only nuke from orbit ... just to be sure.
2) You don't argue with the GM

[Minchandre]

Regarding the ability to use nukes, isn't Israel implied/stated to have used nukes in the Jihad?

[Demonseed Elite]

Yes, they nuked Libya. Pre-Awakening.