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> Using an SMG to blow through a door, Not just a door, but well, you'll see
Banaticus
post Apr 24 2010, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Triggvi @ Apr 22 2010, 11:51 AM) *
SMG are not very good for opening locked doors.

Well, let's examine this. Let's look at two doors, a "regular" door with armor/structure 2 and a reinforced security door with armor 8 and structure 9. The rules say... make an attack test, add hits to DV. Barriers get to reduce DV with a pool of (armor * 2), then any remaining hits reduce structure. Each increment in structure makes a one square meter hole. You ignore the normal DV of the weapon and use the special barrier DV. For a firearm, the DV is 2 per bullet.

Spazzo (basically a spaz) -- poor illiterate street thug
Agility 2, SMG 2
HK MP-5 TX (which is cool 'cause it appeared on the trid sim Combat Mage: TNG and so everyone knows it's frakking awesome)*

Spazzare (Italian for "sweep up") -- Spazzo's older brother who joined the Army and trained in close quarters urban assault. Now, he draws a military pension and for extra spending cash he runs in the shadows.
Agility 4, SMG with specialization Ingram Smartgun 4(6)
Ingram Smartgun X**
Spazzare has a smartlink and he's installed the following modifications:
Pistol grip to hang onto it better (1 slot, -1 recoil
Electric Firing, fires from his smartlink, no need to pull the trigger manually -- keeps his finger from getting tired (1 slot, -1 recoil)
Upgraded gas vent 2 to gas vent 3 (2 total slots, -3 recoil)
Kept the foldable stock (1 slot, -1 recoil)
Kept the smartgun system (1 slot, +2 bonus)
Got rid of the sound supressor -- it can't be used with the gas vents and he has a super silenced ceramic pistol in a concealed shoulder holster just in case.

Spazzo's chasing some gonk who just ran into a normal house and locked the door. Spazzo's going to blow the door away with his SMG. He could get -3 recoil, but he's only going to use -2 recoil 'cause only gonks use that shoulder thing and Spazzo ain't no gonk. He'll fire a single narrow full burst at the door.
Attribute + Skill - recoil
2 + 2 - (2 + -2) = 4 and he happens to get 1 success.
The door also rolls 4 dice and gets 1 success, so those successes cancel out -- no bonus DV for Spazzo.
3 bullets, so the attack against a barrier has a DV of 6. Spazzo murtilated the door.

Spazzare is on a run and the technomancer (the choob) just got himself knocked flat by some IC. He got Spazzare in, but there's one more reinforced security door between Spazzare and the McGuffin and Spazzare's only lockpick is his Ingram. Spazzare's going to fire full auto, a long narrow burst, at the door cause time's a wasting and he needs to get in there, grab the McGuffin, grab the choob then get out of there.
Attribute + Skill - recoil + mods
4 + 6 - (5 + -5) +2 = 12 dice and he gets 4 successes.
The door's rolling 16 dice and gets 5 successes, so -1 to the DV.
6 bullets, so the attack against a barrier has a DV of 12-1=11. Spazzare murtilated the reinforced security door.

Spazzare then finds that a reinforced concrete/metal wall has dropped from the ceiling, blocking his escape and trapping him. No problem. He sets the choob down back away from the wall, whips off the pistol grip (it's actually on a powered slide mount) and mounts his Ingram on the collapsible little tripod that he normally straps inside his coat. He sets it up one foot from the wall and backs up, back where he dropped the choob. He then lays down and pulls the choob's body on top of his to provide a little extra protection from any shrapnel. Then he fires a suppressive blast with his smartlinked electronic trigger.
Attribute + Skill - recoil + mods
4 + 6 - (-9 + 10, since the stock isn't braced so it doesn't count and he doesn't have the pistol grip anymore but he is using the tripod for 6 recoil, but he can't have more recoil compensation than his recoil, so only 9) + 2 for 12 dice, with 4 successes.
The wall's rolling 48 dice, so 16 successes, so -12 to the DV.
20 bullets, so the attack against a barrier has a DV of 40-12=28. Spazzare murtilates the wall (blowing a 1 meter square hole -- if he'd hit 30, it would have been a 2 meter square hole), rolls the choob's body off, breaks down the tripod and tucks it in his coat, slots the pistol grip back on, grabs the choob's body again and makes for the choob's car, laying down more suppressive fire at the guards who came running when they heard the horrendously loud noise. Hopefully, Spazzare can figure out how to take the parking brake off.

Note: Spazzare isn't even maxed out. He could have had +2 agility, +2 skill, some nice cyberware -- actually almost anyone could be Spazzare as I've presented him.

*This is the second best SMG in the Shadowrun world. Seriously, why would someone buy an AK-97 when it's "reliability" is only fluff? The HK MP-5 is far more reliable mechanically (the gas vents give -2 recoil, which keeps your dice pool up and helps reduce the probability of a glitch) which means that fluff-wise a truly experienced gun mechanic should know that the AK-97 is not deserving of that reputation. Also, not only does it tie with the best recoil modifiers off the shelf, it's the cheapest and most easily available model. Anyone can buy it.

**This is the best SMG in the Shadowrun world, bar none. And it's one of the cheaper ones too.
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D2F
post Apr 24 2010, 06:25 PM
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I solved the problem, by taking the table literal and issuing each bullet a DV of 2 that is resisted individually by the barrier.
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hobgoblin
post Apr 24 2010, 06:33 PM
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another issue is that DV 2 do not exceed the armor rating of the normal door, never mind the security door, and so do stun. Only that a object do not take stun damage...
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Andinel
post Apr 24 2010, 08:32 PM
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Just as a note, there isn't an SMG skill - it's an Automatics skill, and you can specialize in SMGs.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 24 2010, 08:59 PM
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Doesn't sound like a solution, D2F, but a new problem.
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MikeKozar
post Apr 25 2010, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 24 2010, 10:25 AM) *
I solved the problem, by taking the table literal and issuing each bullet a DV of 2 that is resisted individually by the barrier.



Hmm...what if we factor in AP, and then consider the power of the hit versus the barrier's ability to bounce low-power attacks? Remember that extra rounds fired in a burst don't add to the armor penetration, so if the first round bounces, the next 9 will too. On the other hand, the initial attack is just to add net hits, and the door doesn't get a dodge. The basic Armor 2 door in the example would not resist the DV 2 attack if the attacker got a net hit (that is, any successes at all), or if he loads up ammo with a DV/AP modifier like Explosive rounds. If he does neither, then it would bounce.

On the other hand, the security door should have an Armor of 8. In the example, the merc got 4 successes, so he's at a base DV of 6. That's not enough to get through the door. On the other hand, if he loaded up EX-Explosive or APDS, he would have succeeded.

Not perfect, but maybe less broken?
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2010, 09:59 PM) *
Doesn't sound like a solution, D2F, but a new problem.

It works in our group and it keeps players from trying to use automatic weapons to get through barriers.
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Apr 25 2010, 03:36 AM) *
Not perfect, but maybe less broken?

I let them use AP modifiers already. A bullet fired from a Barret is not the same as a bullet fired from a streetline special.
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kzt
post Apr 25 2010, 03:52 AM
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Yeah, the example in the rules of a guy blowing a hole big enough to walk through in a door with a pistol is insane. Guns make holes in doors about the diameter of the bullet. It takes a lot of 5.45mm or 10mm holes to produce an opening you crawl through, let alone walk through.
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Faraday
post Apr 25 2010, 03:56 AM
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This is a big advantage of having a high strength sam with a good melee weapon. A combat axe doing a base of 10 DV with 16+ dice is gonna go through a lot. No need to break out the explosives for the small stuff like security doors, plascrete, or metal beams.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 04:13 AM
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Automatic weapons should be able to get through barriers. It's cinematic. It just shouldn't be too easy. So, fixing the OP's demonstration of overpowered-ness by nerfing to nothing is a new problem. The real fix would be in the middle.
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kzt
post Apr 25 2010, 04:33 AM
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Sure they can. Shoot out the hinges and/or lock. But blow a hole in a metal fire door? No, even if you turn it into Swiss cheese it's razor sharp steel Swiss cheese. If you want that bring a grenade launcher with impact fuzed rounds.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 04:37 AM
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Exactly, but do the rules have lock/hinge shooting? That's the exactly kind of middle-ground tweak I'm talking about. After all, the Shock-Lock rounds, by the rules, also make big holes in doors and walls. :/
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 05:13 AM) *
Automatic weapons should be able to get through barriers. It's cinematic. It just shouldn't be too easy. So, fixing the OP's demonstration of overpowered-ness by nerfing to nothing is a new problem. The real fix would be in the middle.

They can still fire through barriers. They just have a really hard time destroying them. And no, a SMG destroying a security door is not cinematic. It's just retarded.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 04:42 AM
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Nope, cinematic.
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jimbo
post Apr 25 2010, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 24 2010, 11:33 PM) *
Sure they can. Shoot out the hinges and/or lock. But blow a hole in a metal fire door? No, even if you turn it into Swiss cheese it's razor sharp steel Swiss cheese. If you want that bring a grenade launcher with impact fuzed rounds.


"Let me try mine."
Terminator, T2 to John Connor
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 04:42 AM) *
Nope, cinematic.

Then name me a movie in which a SMG blows a 2m hole into a security door.
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Falconer
post Apr 25 2010, 03:19 PM
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If it bothers you that much, just modify the rules reading slightly.

Rather than 2DV per bullet... stage it up like normal... 2DV +1 per additional bullet.

IMO: the problem is that stretch of the rules is slightly ambiguous... technically SMG firing stock ammo is 5DV per bullet... but the burst fire rules modify it so that you fire 3 round burst you don't do 15DV... you do 5+1+1. Nothing in the section says it supercedes the BF rules, but the chart's wording leans heavily towards that reading.


As far as things like Shak-tak rounds for SG's go... even they're a bit imprecise... so is it change the shak round from 8DV barrier-half. Or just 2DV like normal, then half. I like the former as SG's could use a little love. And keeps them competitive w/ automatic weapons for breaching.


In the spirit of shak rounds (which are specialized Explosive rounds... treated as Ex rounds for all other purposes). Maybe change bullets... bullets are 1DV per... unless they're explosive, maybe even give a penalty to APDS (it's designed to punch small neat holes and keep going to the meaty bits hiding behind... not waste energy blowing away material).


Anyone else reminded of the old carnival game where they had the full auto BB-gun on an air compressor. They'd give you a sleeve of like 200BB's then you had to fully shoot out the red star or similar from a paper target to win the prize?
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 04:02 PM
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I think I made it very clear that my point is not 2m holes, but a middle ground *between* 2m holes and no effect at all.
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 04:02 PM) *
I think I made it very clear that my point is not 2m holes, but a middle ground *between* 2m holes and no effect at all.

You said the annihilated door was cinematic. Show me a movie with a SMG-annihilated Security door. If you can't then I stand by my opinion that a SMG annihilating a security door is retarded!
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 05:36 PM
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While I think it's probably quite possible to find such a movie (the borked science of films is legendary), I didn't say that. I said 'get through'.
And it's not 'retarded', it's cinematic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 25 2010, 05:36 PM) *
While I think it's probably quite possible to find such a movie (the borked science of films is legendary), I didn't say that. I said 'get through'.
And it's not 'retarded', it's cinematic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree that getting through a security door with a SMG is anything BUT retarded. Security doors are designed to stop bullets!
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Triggvi
post Apr 25 2010, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 25 2010, 06:55 PM) *
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree that getting through a security door with a SMG is anything BUT retarded. Security doors are designed to stop bullets!

getting through door is what the shock-lock rounds for shotguns are for. You blow the lock out and as if by magic the door opens.
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kzt
post Apr 25 2010, 06:24 PM
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Most security doors won't stop bullets. They are two sheets of 1.7 or 2.3mm sheet steel with bracing between. They will make a guy with a ram, prybar or sledge hammer work to get through them.

See http://www.naamm.org/landing_pages/HMMA_862-03.pdf
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D2F
post Apr 25 2010, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 25 2010, 06:24 PM) *
Most security doors won't stop bullets. They are two sheets of 1.7 or 2.3mm sheet steel with bracing between. They will make a guy with a ram, prybar or sledge hammer work to get through them.

See http://www.naamm.org/landing_pages/HMMA_862-03.pdf

Point taken. But you won't be able to create 2m hole with a SMG, either.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2010, 07:59 PM
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But, you might be able to shoot out the lock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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