Question about enchantment, and radicals Options

[simonw2000]

Is orichalcum a radical material? I was just reading MITS's Enchanting Section when the idea hit me. If it is a radical, could using three (3) units create a -7 karma cost modifier when enchanting? Given enough time, it could lead to power foci that are cheap to bond. Modifiers applied are -4 for three materials used in enchantment, and -3 for the three units of orichalcum.

[John Campbell]

Orichalcum is its own thing, I think. It's not a radical, so it doesn't count towards those bonuses. On the other hand, it's got its own better bonuses, and the bonuses stack for every unit of orichalcum, and there's no limit to the amount of it you can use.

[Jason Farlander]

[simonw2000]

Does that mean the modfiers apply after all?

[Lilt]

Not quite. Orichalcum is not a radical, thus having 3 units of it won't give you the -4, but you can buy 3 units of radicals for as little as 440 nuyen (Tin, Lead, and Iron) so you can get that -7 modifier at only a little more cost.

[Jason Farlander]

It also means that with 3 units of radicals and 10 units of orichalcum, you could get a -14.

[Lilt]

Yes, that is the power of orichalcum, however. If you look at the price for orichalcum (88k per unit) it makes it possible to make foci quickly, and cheaply karma-wise, but those 10 uinits of orichalc are worth 880k so you're not going to be making a profit nuyen-wise any time soon...

Of-course you could just initiate your magic rating up to 8 and make orichalcum with a TN2 test, using Centering to center for successes, and make about 8 units in a month. These units, whilst nice for enchanting something yourself, bear your astral signature (as anything affected by your magical skills does) with all the nasty implications that can have for selling them ETC...

This post has been edited by Lilt: Feb 18 2004, 11:47 AM

[simonw2000]

No-one told me you could center while enchanting!

[Entropy Kid]

It's not Centering while Enchanting exactly; it's Centering for successes on the Enchanting test.

[Lilt]

Cenetring can be used with any Magical Skill except Astral Projection as it says on P73 of MitS. Of-course, if your centering skill is particularily active (dancing, for example) then an evil GM might have you make fatigue tests or take stun damage...

I think that centering through arcaine languages fits well (you write on the focus whilst chanting) as do things that can be performed at rest (resting meditation ETC). I have a character right now planning on some-day using the Aura Reading skill as a linked skill for Centering.

[Gordon]

[Lilt]

Well:

[Gordon]

Hmmm...

Yes, I noted that rule as well.

Bear with me a second, I'm going to reason this out loud, see if I'm on the right track...

Any character can use Talismongering (not just Awakened), so any use of that Magical skill doesn't result in an aura...by this logic, I would say that creation of Fetishes using Talismongering don't register the Talismonger's aura.

Alchemy and Artificing do require the character to be Awakened...and creating a radical does indicate that the net result is 'more magical' than the base element (I'm paraphrasing from MiTS).

Creation of Orichalcum (under Alchemy) is dependent on the Magic Rating of the Alchemist (TN: 10 - Magic rating, IIRC).

So by these last two points, Orichalcum and other radicals created through Alchemy may have the Awakened's astral imprint on them for a period of time...

However, what would this time be? Neither radicals nor Orichalcum have Force ratings...so by this logic they shouldn't have the developer's imprint, either.

Interesting.

[Lilt]

I would suggest that they are magical items and thus items that keep the caster's magic signature indefinately.

Consider these statements:
Foci are created using Enchanting and keep their signatures indefinately (although the signature changes if they are re-bonded).
Radicals and Orichalcum are created using Enchanting and keep their signatures indefinately (although the signature changes if they are used in foci).

It's not exactly canon, but it's not explicitly stated anywhere and this fits well.
Does anyone have previous edition's rules (2nd ed?) for creating things like orichalcum and could say wether they keep the magician's astral signature?

[Gordon]

Perhaps, but if creating radicals or orichalcum results in permanent astral imprints, the question becomes why a Talismonger -- who could be commissioned to create a Focus, given that somebody else ponies up the Karma and hence bonds it to themselves -- would be inclined to make any kind of radicals either to order or for inventory purposes..

But there are prices for radicals at the end of MiTS, and quite low ones as well. If my Dog Shaman were to go into the Talismongering biz, he'd be charging a lot more for radicals if I thought they could be used as a material focus against him... :eek:

The Orichalcum prices are still quite high, (88k :nuyen: / unit, IIRC, and I think blackmarket prices are at least 2x that) which could partly reflect a higher concern that their clientele tries something of that nature.

Soo...I'm thinking that radicals probably don't. But the possibility that Orichalcum might still exists...

I don't recall either 1e or 2e addressing astral signatures and any products of Enchanting (except foci)...so that probably doesn't help.... :(

[Lilt]

I've said it before but most legal citizens don't care what their astral signature goes on. Legal talismongers sell foci, without asking for them to be bonded before they leave the shop, and even sell bonded anchoring foci. There is a huge difference between someone who does someting legally, with a SIN, and no serious enemies and a runner who makes enemies every day, yet manages to live-on by people not knowing it was him.

[simonw2000]

[Lilt]

OK: It does count as a radical, but it's only 1 material (giving a -1) and the -4 you are applying there is from 3 different materials.

[Corywn]

[Lilt]

Hmm. In the book where it talks about materials, it talks about One, Two, and Three materials bonuses... I'd expect it to say different classes of materials if it did actually mean classes of material such-as Herbal, Mineral, and Metal radicals...

I like that interpretation though, I might use it next time I run a game.

[spotlite]

Back to the astral signature thing (fwiw though, I consider orichalcum a radical and a metal one at that, and that you have to use three different classes to get the bonus):

I'd say (without quote to back me up, just me feeling for how the system works), that things you have enchanted retain your signature for a length of time as stated. BUT anything you've spent karma on retains your signature until either concealed by metaplane quest or rebonded by someone else. Thus, a foci which has undergone its initial bonding but nothing else would be linkable and traceable to the enchanter who made it. Once they've sold it and its been bonded though, it wouldn't, though perhaps a reeeeeally good assense or a mediocre psychometry test might lend clues as to the original maker.

I think it comes down to a karma thing. If you've spent karma on it and its a magically active object (not *active*, active, just magical.. oh, you know what I mean. Stop quibbling), then it bears the signature of the person who bonded it until it is rebonded or concealed in some manner: Orichalcum hot off the presses would be imprinted with its creators pattern, but it would fade over time; Expendable foci would retain the pattern indefinately, as they don't need to be rebonded to a new user; A power foci or something of that nature will only bear the creators signature to the point of first bonding at the end of the enchanting process because at that point the person who will actually be using it needs to be present to pay some or all of the karma cost. Unless the enchanter bonds it to themselves, it will therefore lose their signature because it is actually bonded to someone else even though they may not have paid all of the karma cost.

I'm pretty sure that's how its supposed to work, even if its not necessarily brilliantly explained.