Giving the massive kill-machine a job Options

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, you have to consider that being accurate about perceived threats is often a lot less important than avoiding bad consequences at all costs when it comes to life and death stakes. Take prey animals like deer or rabbits as an example. If you want to judge a rabbit's decision making by holding false positives against them, then the only conclusion you can come to is that such animals are wrong more often than they are right about whether things around them are threats. But for such animals fleeing at little provocation is still a better strategy than trying to avoid more false positives-- being too bold can very well get them killed immediately. And combat, obviously, is a situation where it's often a matter of life and death, so a lot of player paranoia about sheeting can come into play. A Face might be able to back down at the bargaining table if he can't get everyone to see things his way, but when it comes to drawing guns you're usually either good enough to win or you're dead, and players may chargen accordingly.

Interesting analysis.


I suppose one way to challenge the other players in combat is to spread attacks around; some enemies engage the combat guy and keep him busy, while the rest of the enemies work on the other PCs. When they manage to handle that, they'll have their own sense of accomplishment.

[Cardul]

See, I always break down the level of Security response into multiple layers.

Layer 1: Patrols and Watchmen. When they encounter the players, they are going to
check credentials. If the players do not pass, one of these guys sends a silent signal,
and his/her partner does their best to delay until Layer 2 arrives. If these guys get
shot at, they get to cover, send out an alarm, give as much info as possible about the
runners, and, oh yeah, elevators and specific doors lock down.
Equipment: Armour Jackets, Commlinks, Biomonitors, Heavy Pistols.

Layer 2: On Site Threat Response. When these guys are called onto duty, first thing they
do is evaluate the situation based on the reports from the patrols, and, if necessary, try
to get the patrols out of the area. They will use cover, target key threats. If the situation
is dire(like, say, professional Shadowrunners, and not the run of the mill amatuers), they
begin sending direct combat footage to the Layer 3, and do whatever is within their capability
to tie the Runners down.
Equipment: Security Armour, SMGs and Assault Rifles, likely with some Stick n Shock or
EX-EX ammo, Probably Wired Reflexes 1, smartlink contacts or glasses, commlink with
biomonitor

Layer 3: High Threat Response Team. Expect a mage in this group, expect a Counter/Combat
Hacker to team up with the buildings Spider. These guys have one job, and one job only:
Kill the Runners with extreme prejudice. They will use grenades, they will use heavy weapons,
and if you are in the kill zone and are not the Onsite Response team getting the hell out of
their way, they WILL kill YOU.
Equipment: Best armour available, biggest guns available, Initiative boosting implants or
spells/powers, smartlink implants, possibly even cybereyes, minimum.

A good Runner Team does NOT want to get caught by Layer 1, if they are still there when Layer 3
comes in...time for plan D(D for Demolition).

Combat Only characters invariable get Layer 3 involved....

[Kagetenshi]

That wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that when the streets resound with automatic fire and people die, security and police responses are fast and violent.

Has the setting really changed that much?

~J

[Wandering One]

One dimensional characters are maxed to the hilt, the mins are glaring. A properly min-maxed character is god in a box and puts up a good fight outside of it.

Can't resist being evil...

When all you have is a hammer.

[Wandering One]

Has the setting really changed that much?

~J

Well, always depended on how you played in the first place, I guess. The setting hasn't changed that much, but the interpretation of the genre is different between diff folks.

[Triggvi]

See, I always break down the level of Security response into multiple layers.

Layer 1: Patrols and Watchmen. When they encounter the players, they are going to
check credentials. If the players do not pass, one of these guys sends a silent signal,
and his/her partner does their best to delay until Layer 2 arrives. If these guys get
shot at, they get to cover, send out an alarm, give as much info as possible about the
runners, and, oh yeah, elevators and specific doors lock down.
Equipment: Armour Jackets, Commlinks, Biomonitors, Heavy Pistols.

Layer 2: On Site Threat Response. When these guys are called onto duty, first thing they
do is evaluate the situation based on the reports from the patrols, and, if necessary, try
to get the patrols out of the area. They will use cover, target key threats. If the situation
is dire(like, say, professional Shadowrunners, and not the run of the mill amatuers), they
begin sending direct combat footage to the Layer 3, and do whatever is within their capability
to tie the Runners down.
Equipment: Security Armour, SMGs and Assault Rifles, likely with some Stick n Shock or
EX-EX ammo, Probably Wired Reflexes 1, smartlink contacts or glasses, commlink with
biomonitor

Layer 3: High Threat Response Team. Expect a mage in this group, expect a Counter/Combat
Hacker to team up with the buildings Spider. These guys have one job, and one job only:
Kill the Runners with extreme prejudice. They will use grenades, they will use heavy weapons,
and if you are in the kill zone and are not the Onsite Response team getting the hell out of
their way, they WILL kill YOU.
Equipment: Best armour available, biggest guns available, Initiative boosting implants or
spells/powers, smartlink implants, possibly even cybereyes, minimum.

A good Runner Team does NOT want to get caught by Layer 1, if they are still there when Layer 3
comes in...time for plan D(D for Demolition).

Combat Only characters invariable get Layer 3 involved....

That is a little over kill. The response from law enforcement would depend on where and the security level. To have that level of security everywhere would bankrupt a security corp let alone a local Goverment. With that kind of response there would be no gangs or petty theft.

What happens when the party defeats Layer3? Orbital Strike? The last (layer 3) guys put there comic book power rings together and summon a Dragon or the power rangers or even the big bad beetle borgs?

There are better ways of challenging a combat monster than escalation like that. Combat monsters have weaknesses, use them.

[Smokeskin]

Overkill? Even today, someone barricading themselves in a house with a pistol could easily see a SWAT team response, a bunch of guys who take their training very seriously, packing body armor, assault rifles, sniper rifles, teargas and flash bangs - some places even have them riding around in APCs. Reputedly the world got more violent by 2070, and they have to handle mages, cyberware, and trolls - a SWAT team anno 2070 won't be packing less firepower, on the contrary.

[Wandering One]

Overkill? Even today, someone barricading themselves in a house with a pistol could easily see a SWAT team response, a bunch of guys who take their training very seriously, packing body armor, assault rifles, sniper rifles, teargas and flash bangs - some places even have them riding around in APCs. Reputedly the world got more violent by 2070, and they have to handle mages, cyberware, and trolls - a SWAT team anno 2070 won't be packing less firepower, on the contrary.

I have to agree with this, and for AA/AAA security this isn't unreasonable. Mom'n'Pop shops probably won't have an HRT on call, but they're still hiring their security from a security company of some kind (usually) as a contract if they have any, so Tier 2 isn't unreasonable.

A standard AA/AAA patrol unit for me is actually a lot worse, nevermind the response teams. Average patrol for a AAA: Around 10 4-6 man teams, 1 dog each, 1 level 1 spirit each to watch and alert for astral threats and to get a force 5 counterspelling spirit that's on standby for the location if spells are thrown to cover the team. The team is trained to spread out to wards/mirrored guard booths if they can for cover during defensive actions and not bunch up, as well to place their hands on a dead-mans alert trigger on their comm when investigating possible issues, such as a stranger at the gate or a shadow on the wall they thought moved.

Magic makes people paranoid. Paranoid security people, at least the people in charge, usually have enough of a brain to setup some kind of intelligent response. The people on the ground realize the sense of most of it and do it. Of course you get the guard who's tired of entering in his dead-mans code for every squirrel eventually and has a sense of bravado, but most are more worried about not doing it and losing their job then doing it and setting off a false alarm. One gets them fired, the other merely annoys their boss.

Now, that's for dealing with the subtle threats. The overt ones are going to get a lot more intense, really quickly. Public backlash to grenading a man hauling out an LMG and shooting up a building is going to be non-existant.

[Angelone]

It's been said before but I'll say it as well. The same thing could be said about any character, hackers and technos most of all, what exactly do they do in a wifi inhibeted setting or dead zone? I don't have a problem with combat specialists, heck it's what I play most of the time. Personally, I like to make characters that will survive until I'm able to branch out. So while at the beginning my focus is combat after awhile I can do some of everything.

My current character started out as a combat monkey, but is growing into a rigger/mechanic role, atleast skillwise. With the caps the combat monster has to branch out eventually.

[Wandering One]

It's been said before but I'll say it as well. The same thing could be said about any character, hackers and technos most of all, what exactly do they do in a wifi inhibeted setting or dead zone? I don't have a problem with combat specialists, heck it's what I play most of the time. Personally, I like to make characters that will survive until I'm able to branch out. So while at the beginning my focus is combat after awhile I can do some of everything.

I'd agree, but a bored hacker doesn't bring the police down (usually), a bored monster with an LMG and katana leaves some very pretty splatter stains. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

I'd agree, but a bored hacker doesn't bring the police down (usually), a bored monster with an LMG and katana leaves some very pretty splatter stains. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your bored hackers are doing something wrong (they should be hacking nearby networks "to see if they can" and get some threat response they didn't expect).

Though to be fair, my (favorite) one got bored while playing chess against the next smarest character, took apart his comlink, solved the New York Times crossword puzzle, put the comlink back together, and then declared (when the face took his move) that he (the hacker) won 10 moves in the future, and there was nothing the face could do about it.

His Logic was on par with the average dragon (SR3 stats).

(I should note that the entire scene was written by the face's player)

[Triggvi]

Overkill? Even today, someone barricading themselves in a house with a pistol could easily see a SWAT team response, a bunch of guys who take their training very seriously, packing body armor, assault rifles, sniper rifles, teargas and flash bangs - some places even have them riding around in APCs. Reputedly the world got more violent by 2070, and they have to handle mages, cyberware, and trolls - a SWAT team anno 2070 won't be packing less firepower, on the contrary.

not every area of a city can have super security. Having 20 teams of super swat of call 24/7 is costly. We are not talking block patrols we are talking mega cities. 20 minutes response time would mean the patrolmen is dead and the runners are long gone.

And how many gangs are there is Seattle alone. Are you saying that gangs areas get super swat response? Poor neighborhoods get top notch security? They aren't paying for it so the answer is no. If they don't pay for security they don't get it. Welcome the to shadowrun.

[Manunancy]

A standard AA/AAA patrol unit for me is actually a lot worse, nevermind the response teams. Average patrol for a AAA: Around 10 4-6 man teams, 1 dog each, 1 level 1 spirit each to watch and alert for astral threats and to get a force 5 counterspelling spirit that's on standby for the location if spells are thrown to cover the team. The team is trained to spread out to wards/mirrored guard booths if they can for cover during defensive actions and not bunch up, as well to place their hands on a dead-mans alert trigger on their comm when investigating possible issues, such as a stranger at the gate or a shadow on the wall they thought moved.

You will find that sort of security only for a LARGE installation - if you want 24/7 security, the level of security involves something like 150 peoples on the payroll, probably 200 including their support. Financing that level of security means at a minimum a 2000+ peoples installation, or some very proftable activity. Which isn'tthat common even for a AAA corporation.

Security is a money sink - sure it can prevent you from losing money, but it sure won't earn any. Unless you're a security company and make your money by providing it to third parties.

[Wandering One]

You will find that sort of security only for a LARGE installation - if you want 24/7 security, the level of security involves something like 150 peoples on the payroll, probably 200 including their support. Financing that level of security means at a minimum a 2000+ peoples installation, or some very proftable activity. Which isn'tthat common even for a AAA corporation.

Security is a money sink - sure it can prevent you from losing money, but it sure won't earn any. Unless you're a security company and make your money by providing it to third parties.

True enough, this isn't Stuffer Shack security. But considering the number of general runs that go against an arcology, or a secret site, or a massively important Macguffin, this *would* be expected. No, your local plumbers union aren't carrying this kind of protection, but a AA making a multi-million nuyen prototype (eventually) or a AAA standard R&D lab? Absolutely, especially with the commonality of runners as presented in the world.

I feel those are more common to the world because that's where the runners go. That the 'unsecured' buildings, comparitively, are more common, they also hold stuff noone's willing to risk life and limb over.

[Triggvi]

My point is that security is relevant to where you are at the time. There are places you can't pass silent gas without a sensor going off. Using escalation to make things harder of the combat monster is a bad idea. There is more to roleplaying than guns and ammo. a character can be so much more and combat monsters will develop if they are put in more of a roleplaying climate.

[Whipstitch]

not every area of a city can have super security. Having 20 teams of super swat of call 24/7 is costly.

Why would you need 20 teams of super SWAT? Between long haul, sleep regulators, unmanned combat drones, riggers, Spirits w/ Movement and Magicians there's all sorts of force multipliers available that can let a relatively small team provide threat response over a pretty big area pretty quickly. Plus, you have to consider zoning and the fact that businesses don't just select their locations willy-nilly. One garage full of aerial drones in Snohomish can let a rigger based in Bellevue ruin your day if that garage happened to be put within a mile or two of several corp facilities.

And how many gangs are there is Seattle alone. Are you saying that gangs areas get super swat response? Poor neighborhoods get top notch security? They aren't paying for it so the answer is no. If they don't pay for security they don't get it. Welcome the to shadowrun.

Of course not. The fluff says poor neighborhoods get the shaft. But we're talking about AA-AAA facilities, so it's irrelevant. A Triple-A is not the local McDonald's. They're not your local Wal-Mart. They're not even the Wal-Mart corporate offices. They are the United Fruit Company circa the 1920s except now they have orbital weapons and answer mostly to a council that they happen to have a seat on. If you're running against a smaller shell company or one of their other subsidiaries, yeah, you'll likely face a lower threat level, which is fine and entirely appropriate; players probably shouldn't be hitting the grid expecting to crash S-K Prime. Go after one of their shell subsidiaries instead or go pick on some gangers.

[Triggvi]

Why would you need 20 teams of super SWAT? Between long haul, sleep regulators, unmanned combat drones, riggers, Spirits w/ Movement and Magicians there's all sorts of force multipliers available that can let a relatively small team provide threat response over a pretty big area pretty quickly. Plus, you have to consider zoning and the fact that businesses don't just select their locations willy-nilly. One garage full of aerial drones in Snohomish can let a rigger based in Bellevue ruin your day if that garage happened to be put within a mile or two of several corp facilities.



Of course not. The fluff says poor neighborhoods get the shaft. But we're talking about AA-AAA facilities, so it's irrelevant. A Triple-A is not the local McDonald's. They're not your local Wal-Mart. They're not even the Wal-Mart corporate offices. They are the United Fruit Company circa the 1920s except now they have orbital weapons and answer mostly to a council that they happen to have a seat on. If you're running against a smaller shell company or one of their other subsidiaries, yeah, you'll likely face a lower threat level, which is fine and entirely appropriate; players probably shouldn't be hitting the grid expecting to crash S-K Prime. Go after one of their shell subsidiaries instead or go pick on some gangers.

They were talking about the patrolman on the street. That means everywhere. The level of security is relevant to where you are!!!!(I said That) If you are in a high security Zone I would expect strong response, but as you get further from the further from high security zones you will get less of a response.

What I was talking about escalating the respond to be punitive on a combat monster. There are other ways of challenging him.

[Whipstitch]

They were talking about the patrolman on the street. That means everywhere.

That wasn't the impression I got at all. Wandering One explicitly mentioned AA-AAA and Cardul was talking about security response procedures.

[Triggvi]

That wasn't the impression I got at all. Wandering One explicitly mentioned AA-AAA and Cardul was talking about security response procedures.

He was quoting my post when he made that statement

[Demon_Bob]

The Corps responce to shadowrunners should be baised upon the bottom line.

Is it worth it to make an example of the runners to discourage future raids?
How much is the stolen property/data worth or to recover or keep away from the competition.
What kind of test subjects would the runners make: for the new droid targeting system; for insect spirit study; new RFID tag tracking system; experimental bio/cyberware?
A corp might just hire a group of runners to test their security in order to get an important contract.
A runner group with a reputation for getting the job done violently might start finding the only jobs they can get require greater violence, in increasingly dangerous remote locations.

Is the players actions taking away from the enjoyment of the other players? Is this players actions starting to take the game somewhere you don't want it to go?
Or is it becoming difficult to create a enjoyable and challenging game for all the players.

Do the PCs feel that the GunBunnies actions are threatening their lives or livelihood? As most shadowrunners are criminals that have banded together for a common goal. It might not just be a coincidence that Aztec found future test subject 103b7; that the local troll gang found out about various inflamitory remarks he made about them as well as his address; that his door happened to be left unlocked and open when he went on a long run; that incriminating evidence as been uncovered. What happens if there is a reward for the capture of the mass murderer of Saeder-Krupp Building G10?

[Triggvi]

The Corps responce to shadowrunners should be baised upon the bottom line.

Is it worth it to make an example of the runners to discourage future raids?
How much is the stolen property/data worth or to recover or keep away from the competition.
What kind of test subjects would the runners make: for the new droid targeting system; for insect spirit study; new RFID tag tracking system; experimental bio/cyberware?
A corp might just hire a group of runners to test their security in order to get an important contract.
A runner group with a reputation for getting the job done violently might start finding the only jobs they can get require greater violence, in increasingly dangerous remote locations.

Is the players actions taking away from the enjoyment of the other players? Is this players actions starting to take the game somewhere you don't want it to go?
Or is it becoming difficult to create a enjoyable and challenging game for all the players.

Do the PCs feel that the GunBunnies actions are threatening their lives or livelihood? As most shadowrunners are criminals that have banded together for a common goal. It might not just be a coincidence that Aztec found future test subject 103b7; that the local troll gang found out about various inflamitory remarks he made about them as well as his address; that his door happened to be left unlocked and open when he went on a long run; that incriminating evidence as been uncovered. What happens if there is a reward for the capture of the mass murderer of Saeder-Krupp Building G10?

There are a lot of ways to make things challenging for them. I agree that just pushing the lethality level to insane heights just the challenge unidimensional min/max is not good for anyone

[Smokeskin]

not every area of a city can have super security. Having 20 teams of super swat of call 24/7 is costly. We are not talking block patrols we are talking mega cities. 20 minutes response time would mean the patrolmen is dead and the runners are long gone.

If kill a few patrolmen, LS or KE will come after you with the big guns. The place you hit might not warrant a SWAT response, but kill their personnel, you've called down the wrath of someone with vast resources. It won't be 20 minutes before the first spirit/mage appears to track you (or maybe even kill you there and then), and that's just the beginning. Geek a cop, even if it is a corporation running the cops, your window of escape is small.

[Angelone]

This arguement pops up every once in awhile and I feel most peoples vision of this is unrealistic in the shadowrun setting. Say your team kills a beat cop who knows too much or a sec. guard at McHughs or hell Renraku*. How (besides gm fiat) does the respective company know it was them? Cybereyes with cameras? Drones recording the whole thing? Ok so if you haven't disguised your appearence they got a face. Then what? They just "magically" know everything there is to know about a SINless criminal and extract their vengence?

It's not feasible and is basically the gm being unrealistic, having watched too many movies where police materialize out of no owhere. Say the runners pop Billy Beat cop and nip on over into the barrens. Is LS, KE, random LE company_01 going to go charging in to get them. Unless he was related to someone important no, even then it's doubtful because as I mentioned before they aren't omnipetent.

Note I'm not talking about AA or AAA areas just average/below average city streets. Even in those AAA or AA area's though, I feel the team has a good chance of getting away if they don't decide to fight to the death and start getting out of there within the first few rounds of combat.

*Remember Renraku can't chase them into the city. Once the runner's get out there the corps sec. guards can't overtly touch them.

I'm not advocating running in and shooting everybody in the face and then Fred Astaireing your way out. Even though a singing, dancing SR team would be awesome x infinity. I'm saying alot of people's responses seem overkill. If security and police response are that good there would be no crime what so ever.

[Smokeskin]

Even in those AAA or AA area's though, I feel the team has a good chance of getting away if they don't decide to fight to the death and start getting out of there within the first few rounds of combat.

I totally agree with you, especially this part. If you make your escape quickly and don't leave clues behind, that should work. But sticking around and thinking you can handle a protracted battle, that just won't work no matter what your stats are.

[Draco18s]

Even in those AAA or AA area's though, I feel the team has a good chance of getting away if they don't decide to fight to the death and start getting out of there within the first few rounds of combat.

I totally agree with you, especially this part. If you make your escape quickly and don't leave clues behind, that should work. But sticking around and thinking you can handle a protracted battle, that just won't work no matter what your stats are.

This.
This is how I like my ShadowRun. Just the right blend of Pink Mohawk and Black Trenchcoat.