CGL Speculation #7 Options

[Fuchs]

That is a statement that is totally incorrect. His communications with the other owners have been completely the opposite, in fact.

Is there anything that would support the assumption that Coleman is telling the truth? Something that does not rely on trusting his word?

[SirBedevere]

There is a lot of hatred for Coleman here and I'm not at all surprised. The game we all love, which is about - in the main - shadowrunners screwing over corporate suits, is being screwed over by a corporate suit, eg Coleman. If this were the 6th World and the denizens of Dumpshock were shadowrunners I wouldn't be in his shoes for all the BTLs in HongKong!

[augmentin]

A quick point on "co-mingling of funds." While it is definitely bad and definitely something you shouldn't do, it is not the same thing as improperly taking money out of the company (i.e. embezzlement).

I have a friend who is a doctor. He owns his own practice. He was routinely using the practice's accounts to pay his wife's credit card bills and other personal expenses. This is a clear case of co-mingling funds, and it is a terrible practice for a whole host of reasons, but my friend was not taking money out of the practice that he was not entitled to, since it was all his money anyway. If you were to look at the accounts, you would see a series of draws for all sorts of stuff, which he made as opposed to doing what he should have done, which is to pay himself one lump sum from the business as profit at the end of the month or quarter or whatever.

I'm not saying that the two situations are the same---if you are one of multiple owners, you are obviously not entitled to unlimited draws. My point is only that co-mingling of funds plus draws of x amount does not necessarily equal x dollars in money improperly taken from the company if those draws were made in lieu of taking profits as an owner. You cannot simply look at the chart of draws and conclude "well, he owes the company that amount."

Hi. Please take this just as a statement of fact and not an attack. If your doctor friend's business is organized as a sole proprietorship, you are absolutely correct provided he accounts for it on his tax return. If your doctor friend's business is organized as a corporation of any sort: C-corp, S-corp, or LLC, than it is not money he is entitled to without filing it with the IRS as a loan to shareholder, 941 income, or dividend. Co-mingling in the context of a corporation is a form of tax evasion. Co-mingling in the context of a multi-shareholder corporation is a form of tax evasion and a form of embezzlement. If a majority of the other shareholders are okay with it, does that make it okay? I don't know. That's a legal question. Is it still a form of tax evasion? You betcha. People smarter than me (most notably, Mind&Pen) have posted on the myriad ways of fixing it. Co-mingling is a very fixable situation provided you either catch it before the IRS does or fall on your face before the IRS, beg mercy, and then stick to their corrective plan. Hopefully CGL/IMR is taking the necessary corrective steps. Short of a ketjack posting ,we'lll never know definitively if they are or not.

[Endroren]

I am arguing against Fuchs's contention that "the letter does not succeed in increasing trust and confidence where it needed to." The fact that most of the CGL freelancers are still working for the company lends me to believe that the letter did succeed.

I think you're probably both wrong (or both only partially right). Nothing in a situation like this is that black and white. There are many, many reasons that a freelancer might choose to "stay or go" at this point in time. Depending on the freelancer, the letter may have had everything, nothing, or something-in-between to do with their decision.

[ClemulusRex]

I guess we could rule out Gary Gygax then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Low blow, Kid. Low blow. May you dissolve slowly within the confines of a gelatinous cube while the wails of a thousand shriekers heralds your passing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, Cardul did specify still alive in her original post.

[Prime Mover]

I have a Speculation. These threads will go on inanely forever.

[Bull]

50 years from now, the game will have changed hands a dozen more times, and yet we'll have "CGL Speculation #897" currently going. People will talk in hushed tones about how their parents or grandparents were there for that first thread, the original argument lost in time and the first big Matrix Crash. Rumor will have it that the thread was abou8t a Unicorn Cop witha Belly Button Ring, but no one will know for certain...

Bull

[Ryu]

50 years from now, the game will have changed hands a dozen more times, and yet we'll have "CGL Speculation #897" currently going. People will talk in hushed tones about how their parents or grandparents were there for that first thread, the original argument lost in time and the first big Matrix Crash. Rumor will have it that the thread was abou8t a Unicorn Cop witha Belly Button Ring, but no one will know for certain...

Bull

And on the day one of those threads gets longer than the holy thread, the last grand dropping will commence.

[shark_sandwich]

If your doctor friend's business is organized as a corporation of any sort: C-corp, S-corp, or LLC, than it is not money he is entitled to without filing it with the IRS as a loan to shareholder, 941 income, or dividend. Co-mingling in the context of a corporation is a form of tax evasion.

Absolutely. There are serious tax consequences to co-mingling funds, and any unauthorized draws could be embezzlement. But, that is a separate question from how much money is owed back to the company as a result of the draws. As you correctly point out, you can improperly take money out of a corporation, and be subject to criminal liability for that taking, even if you were eligible to receive the money if only you took it out properly. But from a civil-only accounting perspective, you are only liable to repay to the corporation the amount that is beyond what you would have received if you had done everything properly.

My point in raising the doctor example is to show that you cannot simply look at the total amount of draws and conclude that this is the amount that Coleman owes IMR. It would be the amount of the draws minus whatever he would have received without the shenanigans (which could be zero, or could be impossible to figure out if the accounts are in chaos). To return to my original point, without knowing this real number, I think it is hard to criticize the business decisions of people like Bills in trying to keep the company afloat.

[Dixie Flatline]

That is a statement that is totally incorrect. His communications with the other owners have been completely the opposite, in fact.

Talk is cheap.

I'll judge the man by his actions.

So far we have: "co-mingling of 700k", failure to pay for freelancers for extended periods of time, failure to pay for the translations of foreign language books, failure to pay Topps royalties, failure to pay royalties for Cthulhutech, failure to pay royalties for Eclipse Phase, misrepresenting sales, misrepresenting remaining stock for CT and EP, and an assurance that he'll make good on everything.

Forgive me if I don't trust the guy farther than I could throw him.

[Dixie Flatline]

I'm not trying to argue that Coleman's some kind of saint with this, but how do we know that hasn't begun to happen? What I mean is, it's unlikely that there would be press releases discussing that. And if assets, like a home, were trying to be liquidated, that does typically take some degree of time to accomplish? How would anyone, outside of those directly involved in the situation, know definitely whether or not assets are in the process of being liquidated? Unless something else leaks, how would the community here know whether or not he is currently "trying to retain his ill-gotten profit before doing what's right?"

That point has been brought up a few times, and I'm just curious, because some of the posters seem convinced this isn't happening at all. Unless I missed something, I'm just not sure how that would be clear one way or the other until more time has passed and/or more information is released.

Considering how many leaks there are, I think we would have heard something from someone.

[Cardul]

Considering how many leaks there are, I think we would have heard something from someone.

Because the Leaks are, apparently, trying to destroy CGL, and so if Coleman were getting a loan on
his home, or taking other measures to get the money back, they would NOT report that, since that
goes against their agenda.

It would be nice if there was a leak on the other side, but I doubt we are going to see that.

[Dread Moores]

So far we have: "co-mingling of 700k", failure to pay for freelancers for extended periods of time, failure to pay for the translations of foreign language books, failure to pay Topps royalties, failure to pay royalties for Cthulhutech, failure to pay royalties for Eclipse Phase, misrepresenting sales, misrepresenting remaining stock for CT and EP, and an assurance that he'll make good on everything.

Were the "failure to pay for the translations of foreign language books" and "misrepresenting remaining stock for CT and EP" confirmed? I missed those two somewhere along the line.

[kzt]

IIRC, the allegation about the foreign sales was not paying Topps their royalties due on foreign sales. IIRC, I've also seen postings from authors who have copies of books in a foreign language who have never seen any of the money that FASA was supposed to be pay them from a foreign edition, so that is apparently a long and dishonorable tradition in SR publishers.

[Cthulhudreams]

Were the "failure to pay for the translations of foreign language books" and "misrepresenting remaining stock for CT and EP" confirmed? I missed those two somewhere along the line.

It is probable that the second part is the debt that the publishers of Cthulhutech are trying to claim from IMR.

[otakusensei]

Because the Leaks are, apparently, trying to destroy CGL, and so if Coleman were getting a loan on
his home, or taking other measures to get the money back, they would NOT report that, since that
goes against their agenda.

It would be nice if there was a leak on the other side, but I doubt we are going to see that.

I think what you're referring to is a statement from CGL. We've had those, they tend to be very guarded and weak on specifics for reasons that Jason has stated clearly; and that I don't accept because they are as substantial as a fart and equally welcome.

Frank definitely started this off with an agenda. Plenty of folks, myself included, have soured to IMR since the leaks began. But I see no reason to believe that the information being leaked is selective. There might be a twist or spin on some of it, particularly in Franks interpretations, but the facts have been paramount. You are free to take those as you will and fight on the details, but I have yet to see a rep from IMR out and out say that larger issues are entirely false. I've seen some attempts at mitigating damage, stating that numbers aren't as bad without giving a counter example, but most of what has been leaked has been substantiated by multiple sources. Up to and including pertinent persons and business partners parting ways with IMR and in some cases seeking legal action.

So you are free to speculate on this however you like, but please keep in mind that facts can't have an agenda. They are what they are. If you don't have all the facts it's because IMR isn't talking, not because someone is keeping them from you to reach some specific end.

However, I'll admit I may be wrong. But there are so many people involved at this point that you'd have to assume there was some sort of conspiracy against IMR. While it sounds interesting, I don't honesty think all the parties privy to the leaks are able to work together well enough on their own to perpetrate that type of operation. Hand info off to Frank to leak, sure, but past that it's all sort of gone pear shaped while people brought in reports from ground zero. You know, leaks and rumors getting substantiated as people find themselves in a position to speak out. If your nightmares are plagued by a shadowy Frank Trollman and his army of forum zombies though, you may find the conspiracy theory more attractive. I prefer never to dream about Frank.

[hermit]

I don't honesty think all the parties privy to the leaks are able to work together well enough on their own to perpetrate that type of operation. Hand info off to Frank to leak, sure, but past that it's all sort of gone pear shaped while people brought in reports from ground zero.

This is a classic shadowrun corp intrigue plot? I mean, come on, that is what this damn game is all about?

Frank is being used by a party or parties interested in bringing CGL down, I think. Those are not the only ones around with this agenda, but what makes you so sure that Frank was given both all relevant information and did indeed post all he was given, even that which may contradict the point he tried to make?

The first would assume the party pushing an agenda would not push their agenda, and the second ... well, I don't believe Frank would put truth above his interest in ranting, really. He is too fond of axe grinding for that.

I am not saying the stuff leaked was wrong; I am quite certain it was mostly accurate, if a bit slanted by Frank. I am just not in the least convinced that it's all there is to this matter. As much as Jason and LLC and Bills spin things the way they want them to be heared, the other party has an interest in leaking only information that benefits their end. Nothing dishonorable in that, it's how the world works.

Just, don'T think one of the parties involved has The Truth™ on this. This elusive thing can only be glimpsed if you look at all sides' information critically.

[LurkerOutThere]

I think what you're referring to is a statement from CGL. We've had those, they tend to be very guarded and weak on specifics for reasons that Jason has stated clearly; and that I don't accept because they are as substantial as a fart and equally welcome.

Frank definitely started this off with an agenda. Plenty of folks, myself included, have soured to IMR since the leaks began. But I see no reason to believe that the information being leaked is selective. There might be a twist or spin on some of it, particularly in Franks interpretations, but the facts have been paramount. You are free to take those as you will and fight on the details, but I have yet to see a rep from IMR out and out say that larger issues are entirely false. I've seen some attempts at mitigating damage, stating that numbers aren't as bad without giving a counter example, but most of what has been leaked has been substantiated by multiple sources. Up to and including pertinent persons and business partners parting ways with IMR and in some cases seeking legal action.

So you are free to speculate on this however you like, but please keep in mind that facts can't have an agenda. They are what they are. If you don't have all the facts it's because IMR isn't talking, not because someone is keeping them from you to reach some specific end.

Really you can't look at the facts presented, or that 700K figure that keeps getting brought up and see ANY selection bias? As Jason said, he is not in a position to comment on many financial matters nor does he feel it would be appropriate to do so, nor is it good business for them to open up their internal bookkeeping to fan review, yet nothign whatsoever has come out about these processes. Now there are some bening reasons the leaks are not covering this process the most obvious being those who are responsible for them are out of the company or participating in legal action, either would cut off their access or make them hesitant to leak documents.

[Warlordtheft]

Didn't some one some where mention that CGL was also being run out of the Colman's previous house? Could that have been part of the issue when he bought the new house?

Just asking-cause I thought I read something on it a few threads (not posts!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) back.

[Ancient History]

Really you can't look at the facts presented, or that 700K figure that keeps getting brought up and see ANY selection bias?

$726k, I think. Thereabouts. Which, t'be fair, we do have a very pretty chart affiliated with that number. Showing Loren making draws that add up to that region. Confirmed by one of the owners of the company. Of which everyone can draw their own conclusion.

As Jason said, he is not in a position to comment on many financial matters nor does he feel it would be appropriate to do so, nor is it good business for them to open up their internal bookkeeping to fan review, yet nothign whatsoever has come out about these processes. Now there are some bening reasons the leaks are not covering this process the most obvious being those who are responsible for them are out of the company or participating in legal action, either would cut off their access or make them hesitant to leak documents.

Sooo...I know you're trying to argue that the "leakers" are selectively releasing facts to make IMR look bad (despite the fact that most threads about the topic appear to be collecting any and all information/rumors/etc. good or bad), but the way you've phrased it you're basically kvetching that the leakers aren't leaking enough. Which is rather silly. Whenever IMR has anything remotely positive, they've been the first ones on the line to tell everybody about it. What's more likely to you: that there is no good news because IMR is deliberately suppressing it, that there is no good news because the leakers are deliberately not leaking it, or that at the moment there just is no good news (or bad news, or news of any kind for the last couple of days)?

[BeeRockxs]

What's more likely to you: that there is no good news because IMR is deliberately suppressing it, that there is no good news because the leakers are deliberately not leaking it, or that at the moment there just is no good news (or bad news, or news of any kind for the last couple of days)?

The second, because the leakers have shown a clear opinion that they'd like CGL to fail, and leaking good news for CGL would work against that purpose.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

No cookie for you. Next.

[JM Hardy]

$726k, I think. Thereabouts. Which, t'be fair, we do have a very pretty chart affiliated with that number. Showing Loren making draws that add up to that region. Confirmed by one of the owners of the company. Of which everyone can draw their own conclusion.


Sooo...I know you're trying to argue that the "leakers" are selectively releasing facts to make IMR look bad (despite the fact that most threads about the topic appear to be collecting any and all information/rumors/etc. good or bad), but the way you've phrased it you're basically kvetching that the leakers aren't leaking enough. Which is rather silly. Whenever IMR has anything remotely positive, they've been the first ones on the line to tell everybody about it. What's more likely to you: that there is no good news because IMR is deliberately suppressing it, that there is no good news because the leakers are deliberately not leaking it, or that at the moment there just is no good news (or bad news, or news of any kind for the last couple of days)?

There are good news rumors that I have not repeated for a couple of reasons, mainly that they either are not yet fully confirmed or because there are pieces of information I'm not at liberty to share for a variety of reasons. So yes, there is good news that I am deliberately not leaking.

Jason H.

[Catadmin]

There are good news rumors that I have not repeated for a couple of reasons, mainly that they either are not yet fully confirmed or because there are pieces of information I'm not at liberty to share for a variety of reasons. So yes, there is good news that I am deliberately not leaking.

Jason H.

But *I* will tell you that I've seen Jason talking to dragons.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Yes, I'm being silly. But it's that kind of Monday.

[Cthulhudreams]

$726k, I think. Thereabouts. Which, t'be fair, we do have a very pretty chart affiliated with that number. Showing Loren making draws that add up to that region. Confirmed by one of the owners of the company. Of which everyone can draw their own conclusion.


Sooo...I know you're trying to argue that the "leakers" are selectively releasing facts to make IMR look bad (despite the fact that most threads about the topic appear to be collecting any and all information/rumors/etc. good or bad), but the way you've phrased it you're basically kvetching that the leakers aren't leaking enough. Which is rather silly. Whenever IMR has anything remotely positive, they've been the first ones on the line to tell everybody about it. What's more likely to you: that there is no good news because IMR is deliberately suppressing it, that there is no good news because the leakers are deliberately not leaking it, or that at the moment there just is no good news (or bad news, or news of any kind for the last couple of days)?

The biggest problem is IMR is refusing to engage on the finacial topic, which is the only topic of substance in this entire debate. I understand why IMR doesn't want to do that, but that is the issue.