CGL Speculation #7 Options

[otakusensei]

Yup, ordered through CGL almost 14 months ago. Yeesh.

It's shiny. I'm not taking it out of the shrink wrap for now. Probably bust it open for Gen Con.

Bull

Now that I've got it I feel the same way. Bent corner sucks, but it's mine.

[Dread Moores]

Which isn't exactly true. But since I can't even register on that lousy forum, I can't really refute it there. He's also inaccurate about Ghost Cartels being an attempt to use SoLA material without paying the SoLA writers.

So wait, I'm not clear on your point. Are you trying to say that people can misinterpret information or come to inaccurate conclusions? Because we all clearly know that's not true, sir. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Somehow, I'm not feeling surprise, like I thought I would, when I realized that these comments were left to lie unanswered.

[knasser]

I tend to blame Fanpro for a lot of the YOTC and Do6W garbage I hate so much although I've been told after the fact that much of that was in the works before the hand over. I like the storyline direction things have gone under CGL and would like to see the trend of street and corporate/international espionage over immortal elves continue.

The problem is that the main people responsible for all the great material from CGL have gone and have such a damaged relationship with any company under Loren Coleman that they're not coming back. And that's my biggest issue. Ultimately I care about the game. And I attribute responsibility for it primarily to the creative team that wrote it, not the company that facilitated them to do so. Given the lag between development and release, we were still seeing the efforts of Peter Taylor (Synner) being put out long after he left. As I've said before, I'd sooner see a temporary hiatus in releases than the hypothetical "Lone Star Cop on the Unicorn". Once a YotC has been released, we're stuck with it.

And it's supposing that there is a long hiatus. CGL have a pretty poor record of releasing products in a timely fashion. It would be in the interests of a new company to get the ball rolling quickly and we know that there's ready to roll material in the background, e.g. all the 6WA stuff that AH did. If CGL don't release this material, then presumably the writers are free to sell it to the new people.

Anyway, that second paragraph is guess work. There could well be a pause if there were a change in licencee, I don't know. But I would strongly prefer to have to wait a few months before the presses started rolling again, before I saw whatever the next "changelings" were or Leonardo created technomancers plot-twist or whatever. I suspect you'd actually feel the same if you considered this risk to be a likely outcome?

K.

[knasser]

Which isn't exactly true. But since I can't even register on that lousy forum, I can't really refute it there. He's also inaccurate about Ghost Cartels being an attempt to use SoLA material without paying the SoLA writers.

I'll take your word over Frank's in this case.

[hermit]

I think I see where the questions are going and I happily report that we are not affiliated with any "televangelist" churches that I know of. We're proud of our roots as a church, but I have to admit we look a lot like a business these days.

I never meant to throw you in with the nutjobs. Other, less nutty churches have a very strict and time honored organisational blueprint too - think of the Catholics, Anglicans, and the older Baptist paishes (and from yourt comment, I take it your organisation has an Anglican background?). A startup company set up from a hobby group by people coming from a subculture not exactly known for their business savy - unlike people who have an American church background, which, as you say, requires at least some idea of how to manage a business - do not have this at all, and thus are far more prone for making mistakes a business owner should avoid at all costs.

No, but as has been previously stated co-mingling funds is a form of tax evasion. In effect it's stealing from all citizens.

That entirely depends on where you're from. A Swiss might consider it a human right (that is a strong notion in switzerland, and tax evasion is a crime on one height with parking tickets there - it's what their economy is built upon after all). Competition and all that. Competition is never wrong, now is it? Everybody knows everything's better with competition (and Dikote).

He's also inaccurate about Ghost Cartels being an attempt to use SoLA material without paying the SoLA writers.

FWIW, I found one sidebar about the Aztlaner warrior orders that looks a lot like SoLA. Everything else South America relevant seems to build more on Runner Havens' Caracas entry.

[Furluge]

No, but as has been previously stated co-mingling funds is a form of tax evasion. In effect it's stealing from all citizens. The official PR release says that it was accidental and steps are being taken to fix it. Hopefully that's true.

::paddles cyberzombie unicorn with belly-button jewel just a little more::

*snort* Yeah, because you totally earned that tax money. I mean that money needs to be forcibly extracted and sent to to Washington so it can be hidden away in private funds and doled out as kickbacks and favors to the politicians' wealthy campaign contributers while they feed every else lies that it's "for the people". It's the 'merican way!

(Again, not saying co-mingling of funds was good, because it's definitely not. I just couldn't get by the "Oh noes he stolez from evrybodiez!" line.)

That entirely depends on where you're from. A Swiss might consider it a human right (that is a strong notion in switzerland, and tax evasion is a crime on one height with parking tickets there - it's what their economy is built upon after all). Competition and all that. Competition is never wrong, now is it? Everybody knows everything's better with competition (and Dikote).

Wait.. that statement was a tad confusing. Are you saying tax evasion in Switzerland is an offense of equal magnitude to parking tickets in Switzerland? And if so, are parking tickets a major offense there? ;p Or are you saying that a large part of Switzerland's income comes from parking tickets? (I wonder if they're the country employing those tire-tread detecting cameras)

This post has been edited by Furluge: May 6 2010, 08:20 AM

[Cardul]

Wait.. that statement was a tad confusing. Are you saying tax evasion in Switzerland is an offense of equal magnitude to parking tickets in Switzerland? And if so, are parking tickets a major offense there? ;p Or are you saying that a large part of Switzerland's income comes from parking tickets? (I wonder if they're the country employing those tire-tread detecting cameras)

No..he is saying a large part of Switzerlands income comes from their anonymous banks that take the money
rich americans put there to avoid taxes. You pay alot for the anonymity. Probably as much as you would pay
in taxes in the U.S....fortunately, US treaties made in the last few years have managed to get Switzerland
to be able(as in...Forced to) to disclose the info to the US IRS

[hermit]

Rich Europeans and drug lords for the most part. A swiss secretary (finances, I think) once said he considers putting money anonymously and away from prying statres' eyes into swiss coffers a basic human right.

Probably as much as you would pay in taxes in the U.S....

No, about half. They call it tax competition. You see, the US could just slash taxes in half and would be able to compete on the taxes market again!

Swiss law differs between tax evasion (hardly an offence, let alone a crime) and tax swimdle, which involves willful fabrication of false papers and all other needless stuff, which is a crime like tax evasion is in non-tax-haven countries.

The US made some harsh threats, and so did many European states. Switzerland fumed and raged, but ultimatlyx cowed, because they took a look at a map, I guess.

[Kid Chameleon]

Which isn't exactly true. But since I can't even register on that lousy forum, I can't really refute it there. He's also inaccurate about Ghost Cartels being an attempt to use SoLA material without paying the SoLA writers.

There's a lot of inaccuracies over there. Luckily the thread got locked for now. I wonder where all that Dumpshock hate will be vented to....

[Eldritch Parciva...]

No..he is saying a large part of Switzerlands income comes from their anonymous banks that take the money
rich americans put there to avoid taxes. You pay alot for the anonymity. Probably as much as you would pay
in taxes in the U.S....fortunately, US treaties made in the last few years have managed to get Switzerland
to be able(as in...Forced to) to disclose the info to the US IRS

Okay, as a Swiss citizen, I seriously take offense with that statement.
First off, before throwing stones, you should take a look at the tax evasion opportunities Delaware, Florida and Nevada offer.
Secondly, the possibility to obtain information on bank accounts in Switzerland existed long before the recent negotiations; however, information exchange requires the submission of proof that there is, in fact, foul play involved, in which case the is the "Amtshilfeverfahren".
Lastly, the treaties regarding the ceding of information on UBS accounts to the IRS is not yet ratified by the Swiss National Council and faces stiff opposition. Why? Because some parties adamantly want to defend the right of Swiss banks to aid and abet tax evasion and tax fraud, but also because to some, there is a desire to take the UBS in particular and manager boni excesses on a very short leash, which - as is customary in Swiss politics - is done by judicious horse trading ("We agree to the information ceding while you will back us on legislation against boni excesses and for stronger oversight in 'too big to fail' banks).

[hermit]

Secondly, the possibility to obtain information on bank accounts in Switzerland existed long before the recent negotiations; however, information exchange requires the submission of proof that there is, in fact, foul play involved, in which case the is the "Amtshilfeverfahren".

Only if you could prove up front that there wasn't just a case of evasion but of willfull swindling [Steuerbetrug], usually tied to fabrication of wrong papers. Tax evasion [Steuerhinterziehung] wasn't usually persecuted, and asking for proof up front when the proof is likely in the banks' records is awfully convenient for a country whose financial industry depends on foreign monies, too.

It might offend you as a swiss, but your country was for a very long time thoroughly unhelpful, and gleeful comments by government members about how tax evasion is a human right sure didn't help.

As for the horse trading, with your weird perpetual government of national unity, that is kind of to be expected? I wonder why you bother with national votes at all. Like it would make much difference? Well, apart from the elections being an excellent opportunity for the SVP to embarass the entire country again.

There's a lot of inaccuracies over there. Luckily the thread got locked for now. I wonder where all that Dumpshock hate will be vented to....

Doesn't Frank have a blog?

[LurkerOutThere]

Anyway, that second paragraph is guess work. There could well be a pause if there were a change in licencee, I don't know. But I would strongly prefer to have to wait a few months before the presses started rolling again, before I saw whatever the next "changelings" were or Leonardo created technomancers plot-twist or whatever. I suspect you'd actually feel the same if you considered this risk to be a likely outcome?

Yes, I guess you could say I favor a known but changed quantity over a complete unknown. Further Jason has made statements that he doesn't see himself making major earth shattering changes under his watch. I do think if CGL comes through this they will be stronger for it as more financial oversite and better operational procedures benefit all companies.

Personal Anecdote One: As a side affect of becoming more active on DS as opposed to just lurking and have started to become more aware of who is responsible and put names to books/persona's. This has been both a good and a bad thing because even amongst the current crop of stuff there have been stuff I just didn't care for or couldn't get the rational. Whereas previously I would have merely chalked it up to differences of flavor and preferances now everything is a tad more personal. So in short while the talent departure is concerning there has been no spate of SR writing, going all the way back to first or second, that I've found completely perfect. Hopefully good talent will return, and if not, more good talent will work it's way in.

Anecdote Two:
It's not to say I don't want to see any changes occur in Shadowrun, I just want those changes to fall more squarely on sixth world actors and actions and less reliance on immortal elves, dragons and assorted earthdawn baggage. All the immortal elves dieing in a bio-engineered plague would not go amiss in my book. I want to see some national power conflict and megacorp wars.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Luckily the thread got locked for now.

Yay for inaccuracies: This one has, this one hasn't.

[Eldritch Parciva...]

Only if you could prove up front that there wasn't just a case of evasion but of willfull swindling [Steuerbetrug], usually tied to fabrication of wrong papers. Tax evasion [Steuerhinterziehung] wasn't usually persecuted, and asking for proof up front when the proof is likely in the banks' records is awfully convenient for a country whose financial industry depends on foreign monies, too.

It might offend you as a swiss, but your country was for a very long time thoroughly unhelpful, and gleeful comments by government members about how tax evasion is a human right sure didn't help.

I'd love to see an actual quote saying just that.

As for the horse trading, with your weird perpetual government of national unity, that is kind of to be expected? I wonder why you bother with national votes at all. Like it would make much difference? Well, apart from the elections being an excellent opportunity for the SVP to embarass the entire country again.

See, when your government has to get popular approval on just about any legislation (yay for the Referendum!), a government of national unity is a lot more efficient that getting slapped down by popular decision every time (and even so, the government has lately shown a remarkable tendency to still get slapped). Also, and I am assuming that you are neither Swiss nor residing in Switzerland, the fact that each party with a seat in the councils participates in drafting legislation merely camouflages the fact that there are several different majorities depending on the item at hand. For instance, military spending regularly gets voted down by the so-called 'unholy alliance' of SP and SVP, while immigration policies usually find their majority withing SVP, FDP and CVP. And while this system generally makes it very, very hard to introduce any new piece of legislation that is not overly popular, it is also extremely stable, in the sense that you need not to worry that every policy installed by the current government will be overturned by the next.

[Demonseed Elite]

FWIW, I found one sidebar about the Aztlaner warrior orders that looks a lot like SoLA. Everything else South America relevant seems to build more on Runner Havens' Caracas entry.

Exactly. That sidebar is from my SoLA writing and I was the one who put it in Ghost Cartels. And since I was paid for Ghost Cartels, you could say I was paid for that SoLA writing.

[augmentin]

*snort* Yeah, because you totally earned that tax money. I mean that money needs to be forcibly extracted and sent to to Washington so it can be hidden away in private funds and doled out as kickbacks and favors to the politicians' wealthy campaign contributers while they feed every else lies that it's "for the people". It's the 'merican way!

(Again, not saying co-mingling of funds was good, because it's definitely not. I just couldn't get by the "Oh noes he stolez from evrybodiez!" line.)

::Checks the TOS before responding::

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

Sadly, or fortunately depending on your point of view, the TOS prevent me from responding as I would like. Sticking to the facts, our government provides services in a state of market failure. These services are paid for primarily by a progressive income tax system where as one earns more, one incurs a larger proportion of the tax burden.

For example, According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50% of income earners pay approximately 4% of income taxes. The top 25% of income earners pay nearly 83% of the income tax burden, and the top 10% pay 65%. The top 1% of income earners pay almost 35% of all income taxes. To personalize this, if you earn more than $70k (as likely many dumpshockers do) you are in the top 25% of income earners.

Whether or not this arrangement is "fair" or if the disproportionately high use of government provided services by those paying the least taxes is "earned" is a subject for debate on another forum. Perhaps we can all agree that despite the roles we play in the game we enjoy, not paying taxes is bad, stealing is bad, lying is bad, not paying employees, contractors, vendors, or licensors for services provided is bad, CGL/IMR has promised to clean up their act, and we have no idea if they actually are or not.

Now, where's that cyberzombie unicorn again?

[Method]

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

Thanks for posting this, augmentin. Makes my job easier.

Please take the real world political debate elsewhere. A comment here or there is one thing, but this thread is not about the legalities of tax-sheltering in Switzerland.

Thanks!

[hermit]

[ Spoiler ]

Hallo!

Da es den terms and services auf Dumpshock widerspricht, ich Ihnen dies hier aber nicht vorenthalten wollte, überreiche ich es Ihnen auf diesem Weg.

Gut, hier also eine kleine Sammlung in kurzem Zeitaufwand ergoogleter Zitate zu der Gewichtung von Steuerhinterziehung und Steuerbetrug in der Schweiz. Erst einmal Zitate aus Artikeln, die deutlich größer sind:

Für die Mehrheit der eidgenössischen Bevölkerung ist diese Blickrichtung nicht nachvollziehbar. Für viele ist das Bankgeheimnis ein Bankkundengeheimnis, bei dem der Schutz der Privatsphäre höchste Priorität genießt. "Man muss sich vor einem falsch gebauten Fiskalsystem in Sicherheit bringen dürfen, ohne physisch auszuwandern", sagte der Schweizer Privatbankier Konrad Hummler vor zwei Jahren in der "Weltwoche". "Das erfordert einen Bruch mit der Legalität." Deutlicher kann man es nicht ausdrücken.

Anders als in Deutschland gibt es in der Schweiz einen Unterschied zwischen echtem Steuerbetrug und dem mehr oder weniger lässlichen Delikt der Steuerhinterziehung. Wer beim Ausfüllen seiner Steuerrechnung lediglich "vergisst", alle Einnahmen zu deklarieren, dem droht wegen Steuerhinterziehung nur eine geringe Geldbuße. Man muss schon Dokumente fälschen, damit die Schweiz den Straftatbestand des Steuerbetrugs anerkennt und einem ausländischen Staat Amtshilfe leistet.

Quelle

Der glühendste Verfechter sitzt in der Chefetage der ältesten Privatbank des Landes. Für Konrad Hummler, Teilhaber von Wegelin & Co., ist die Steuerhinterziehung der Deutschen legitime Notwehr von Bürgern, die versuchen, "sich dem aktuellen Zugriff der Verwalter eines sozialstaatlichen und finanzpolitischen Desasters teilweise zu entziehen".

Das "Sparen außerhalb des Systems nach Schweizer Art" stehe nicht nur den Reichen, sondern auch und vor allem dem produktiven Mittelstand offen. "Diese Leute gilt es zu schützen", fordert Hummler.

Das Schweizer Bankgeheimnis als humanitärer Akt? Tatsächlich ist es in erster Linie ein sehr gutes Geschäft. Es gilt als umstrittenstes Erfolgsmodell in der Geschichte der globalen Hochfinanz. Wie ein Magnet zog das gesetzlich verankerte Schweigen in den vergangenen Jahrzehnten Billionen Euro an und verschaffte der Finanzindustrie des kleinen Alpenstaats einen kometenhaften Aufstieg.

Aus einst unbedeutenden Bonsai-Banken wurden Giganten des Geldgewerbes. UBS, Credit Suisse & Co. gelten heute - trotz rekordverdächtiger Verluste mit US-Ramschhypotheken - immer noch als die ersten Adressen unter den Vermögensverwaltern. Die ganze Branche sorgt für 15 Prozent des helvetischen Bruttosozialprodukts

Quelle

Ein ganzer Artikel: Wieder von SPON.

Und hier noch einer vom manager magazin.

http://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2008-12/a...echtsstaat.html.

Und zum Schluss: etwas 'Vaterlandsverrat'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Das ist das was ich aus dem Kopf gegriffen gefunden habe. Ich bin mir relativ sicher, dass sich ein Politiker der SVP dazu hingerissen hat, dem Herrn Hummler zur Seite zu springen und seine Argumente aufzugreifen, aber bedauerlicherweise finde ich dieses Interview nicht mehr. Vielleich fällt es Ihnen ja ein?

mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Dirk Loechel

This was meant to go to Eldritch Parcival McR'lyeh by PM, but it seems he is too new to receive PM. I apologise for violating TOS and take my warning in stride, but as I researched this I am kind of unwilling to not let him have a look at it.

/switzerland discussion; if you could somehow release your PM function, Eldritch Parcival McR'lyeh, we can well continue this via PMs if you are interested to.

[Method]

So Frank has mentioned on other boards that IMR released a summary of their internal audit to employees and freelancers. Can anyone in those groups confirm or deny within the bounds of there respective NDAs?

[Ancient History]

I know they're conducting an audit, and they've sent e-mails to most of the current and former freelancers asking for their own records.

[JM Hardy]

What's happening is that each contractor will be getting a list of the contracts issued for them and CGL's records of what has been paid. We'll ask them to verify that we have everything right, or correct what is not accurate, so that we have everything nice and organized. The first step is making sure we have current contact info, which is what is happening currently.

Jason H.

[Dread Moores]

What's happening is that each contractor will be getting a list of the contracts issued for them and CGL's records of what has been paid. We'll ask them to verify that we have everything right, or correct what is not accurate, so that we have everything nice and organized. The first step is making sure we have current contact info, which is what is happening currently.

Jason H.

That last line isn't so reassuring in terms of CGL not having some very serious prior data management issues.

[LurkerOutThere]

Welcome to four weeks ago, such things were frankly admitted, it's cute to see folks go AHA to old news.

[Patrick Goodman]

That last line isn't so reassuring in terms of CGL not having some very serious prior data management issues.

People move, email addys change...and I don't know about you, but I'm oftem pretty bad about remembering everyone who has my email address and might need an update, especially if I'm not working for them anymore. This is not to say that CGL does not, or at least dd not, have some data management issues, but it's probably not all their fault in this case.

[JM Hardy]

That last line isn't so reassuring in terms of CGL not having some very serious prior data management issues.

People move, change addresses, etc. Some people have not worked with Catalyst since I became line developer, so I don't have a lot of contact information for them. So I'll gather it, we'll compare it to what the offices have, and correct where necessary. Updating databases is something that has to happen on occasion, and it's happening now.

Jason H.