Control of drones questions Options

[FenrisWolf]

New GM here and I'm having a tough time understanding how control of drones work. I don't have my book today and I was hoping someone could help me out. My group had our first couple of sessions and this topic came up. I kind of winged it during the session to keep the momentum going but would rather find out what the hell I did right and what I totally fubared. Specifically:

1) How does a person take control of another person's drone
2) How do they maintain control of it
3) How does a person keep someone else from taking control of their drones

Thanks in advance chummers.

[Eratosthenes]

1) How does a person take control of another person's drone

Via Hacking, either Spoofing commands from an authorized user, or Hacking in as if it were any other node.

2) How do they maintain control of it

If they have admin rights, erase other users, encrypt the node. If you want to permanently take over the drone, you'll have to do more work to erase all the RFID's, and spoof it's access ID so it can't be tracked, and possibly even install a new system/firewall. Arsenal has some information on stealing cars that might be applicable.

3) How does a person keep someone else from taking control of their drones

IC, strong Firewall, Anti-Theft modifications, or being jumped in (as a rigger).

[FenrisWolf]

Thanks for the help. For the life of me, I have the hardest time getting my head around the matrix/rigging rules. I had a player take control of a corp doberman drone and she used it to gun down some of the opposition. She decided that she wanted to keep the drone and loaded it up on the back of a stolen truck. Then she told me that she logged off of the drone, leaving it alone with only one character in the back of the truck with it. We ended the session on that cue and suffice to say, it was a point of discussion.

Our next session is tomorrow night and I just wanted to make sure I had a better grasp on the rules to prepare myself when the drone comes back online with a target in sight. The player will definitely try to gain control of it again to fix her mistake before it unloads it's AK-97 in her teammate.

[Karoline]

Thanks for the help. For the life of me, I have the hardest time getting my head around the matrix/rigging rules. I had a player take control of a corp doberman drone and she used it to gun down some of the opposition. She decided that she wanted to keep the drone and loaded it up on the back of a stolen truck. Then she told me that she logged off of the drone, leaving it alone with only one character in the back of the truck with it. We ended the session on that cue and suffice to say, it was a point of discussion.

Our next session is tomorrow night and I just wanted to make sure I had a better grasp on the rules to prepare myself when the drone comes back online with a target in sight. The player will definitely try to gain control of it again to fix her mistake before it unloads it's AK-97 in her teammate.

At that point the drone wakes up with the corp's security rigger in control, and starts gunning down anyone it sees. The rigger also takes a moment to check the access logs to see who was controlling the drone, and then sends the corp's hacker after them (Won't actually know who, but could likely find which commlink, which is enough for the hacker to try and locate the commlink from).

Remember, a drone being rigged can't be hacked or interfered with in general except through the use of jammers.

[Falconer]

Don't forget a data bomb!

I don't fully understand the matrix rules yet, (not enough play experience). But I keep reading that the SR4a changes now make data bombs a viable defense in their own right on a drone.


Other ways to 'steal' drones... Jam them, and disable them. See the special electricity rules. (a Med drone like a doberman maxes out at 3bod, 9 armor... so it works out make opposed attack test. Get net hits if it hits, instead of the normal add net hits to damage and soak, roll those 12 dice and if the attack wins... the drone shuts down.

Basically doesn't work well on large vehicles w/ lots of body and armor, but works well on smaller drones.

[Eratosthenes]

Remember, a drone being rigged can't be hacked or interfered with in general except through the use of jammers.

A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.

[Karoline]

A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.

Not if it is slaved to the rigger, which should be an automatic process while a drone is being rigged.

[FenrisWolf]

A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.

That very thing is going to be an issue for me tomorrow. I can't find a reference in the SR4A that says whether a person can exploit their way into a VR controlled drone.

[Karoline]

That very thing is going to be an issue for me tomorrow. I can't find a reference in the SR4A that says whether a person can exploit their way into a VR controlled drone.

Do you have unwired? If not, just say that any time a rigger is rigging a drone, it automatically goes into slave mode. What this means is that it is impossible to hack remotely. The only way to hack it is to directly connect to the node via a fiberoptic cable, and even then, the test is made against a +6 DP for the system or something like that.

[FenrisWolf]

Do you have unwired? If not, just say that any time a rigger is rigging a drone, it automatically goes into slave mode. What this means is that it is impossible to hack remotely. The only way to hack it is to directly connect to the node via a fiberoptic cable, and even then, the test is made against a +6 DP for the system or something like that.

I have Unwired but haven't had a chance to read through it. I started the game with only the SR4A rules with the hopes of adding additional rules as time/need permits.

[Falconer]

Not if it is slaved to the rigger, which should be an automatic process while a drone is being rigged.

In which case, it opens up another avenue of attack.


Spoofing a command from the riggers comm to disconnect all users hammering him w/ dumpshock.

Slaving is nowhere near as much of a defense as you're making it.



Also if the device is slaved, and disconnected by ECM... it's now a wide open as it can't connect to it's master.

Another potential is jamming it, then forging the masters address... then having the drone reconnect to you instead of him.


Also slaving devices can very quickly run you into subscription limit problsm.

[Karoline]

I have Unwired but haven't had a chance to read through it. I started the game with only the SR4A rules with the hopes of adding additional rules as time/need permits.

Well, this would be a good case to go look up slaved nodes. Just don't go crazy with it, because it can quickly bring up the question of why anything important is hackable.

[FenrisWolf]

Just to add some clarification. The runners are fleeing a corp facility with the stolen drone in the back of a boosted bread truck. The corp rigger isn't on-site and would be accessing the drone's node from a remote location. The runners tried to hack into the corp facility but alerted it. They then went in guns blazing so the place is definitely on alert. The corp rigger would access the remaining drone to access the situation and quickly realize that it wasn't in Kansas anymore.

[Karoline]

Just to add some clarification. The runners are fleeing a corp facility with the stolen drone in the back of a boosted bread truck. The corp rigger isn't on-site and would be accessing the drone's node from a remote location. The runners tried to hack into the corp facility but alerted it. They then went in guns blazing so the place is definitely on alert. The corp rigger would access the remaining drone to access the situation and quickly realize that it wasn't in Kansas anymore.

Yep, so what would happen, is as soon as the rigger beings to rig the drone (not just access its location or anything) it goes into slave mode, meaning that no one else can control it. Due to the nature of the matrix, his location and the drone's location don't really matter. Now, if he would open up the guns, or simply use it to spy on the runners (since they seem to think it is safe) is up to you, and would depend some on the corp. Also, keep in mind that the rigger can track the location of the drone, and as long as the runners have the drone with them, the corp can send a black ops type team after them. Note that even if the drone is shut off, it will have RFID tags that will track its location. They're basically going to need to dump the drone, or get it somewhere that it doesn't have wireless access. They could also run a tag eraser over it, but it is likely to have some tags that the eraser can't reach, or of the higher quality that the eraser can't erase. If they had the time and skill, a hacker could access the tags individually and shut them down, or a mechanic could physically pull the tags off or destroy them, but I'm guessing they'll have a helicopter with a special ops team breathing down their necks soon.

[FenrisWolf]

... simply use it to spy on the runners (since they seem to think it is safe) is up to you, and would depend some on the corp. Also, keep in mind that the rigger can track the location of the drone, and as long as the runners have the drone with them, the corp can send a black ops type team after them. ... but I'm guessing they'll have a helicopter with a special ops team breathing down their necks soon.

That my friend is a great idea and very SR-ish of you. Either way, their first run went off without a hitch but will definitely get more interesting as the night goes on.

[FenrisWolf]

Damn double tap post.

[Karoline]

That my friend is a great idea and very SR-ish of you. Either way, their first run went off without a hitch but will definitely get more interesting as the night goes on.

Thanks very much. I try.

[Sengir]

At that point the drone wakes up with the corp's security rigger in control, and starts gunning down anyone it sees. The rigger also takes a moment to check the access logs to see who was controlling the drone, and then sends the corp's hacker after them (Won't actually know who, but could likely find which commlink, which is enough for the hacker to try and locate the commlink from).

I guess the rigger will not wait outside the stolen drone and jump in again at the very moment the player logs off . But the drone still has a pilot program, which might open fire on the poor guy in the back of the truck, or decide that the situation is not covered by its programming and "phone home" for advice (GM decision, or roll a "common sense" test for the drone's pilot).


And the canonical example for all things related to hacking drones:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry804857

[darune]

The way i understand slaving it won't actually add much as to security.

If you wirelessly connect/exploit/whatever to the slaved device (this case the drone) you will merely be redirected (so to speak) to the master. Usually this improves security as the master will be more secure (eg. a camera slaved to security node).

It is fair to assume that the hacker/rigger spoofes his access id when it does not matter (does not need the old one anymore). Even then, a hacker could still search for active commlinks near the drone, but it may be easier to just for the runner hacker to try to log onto/exploit the drone (or slaved rigger) for control, then lie in wait (doing active Analyse to find the runner, then engage in cybercombat).

[Karoline]

Need to be a bit more clear there Darune. You talk about a runner hacking into a system so that he can lie in wait for the runner (presumably himself?). You also say the slaved rigger, but it is the drone that is slaved, not the rigger.

If you try and connect to the slaved device (the drone) you will not be redirected, you will simply fail to connect to it [ACCESS DENIED]. If the hacker wants to get to the master (the rigger in this case) they'll have to use a sniffer to figure out who is connecting to the drone, then they'll have to hack into that person's commlink, which for a corp rigger, is likely to be highly secure.

As for the hacker lying in wait for the rigger... well, we've already seen they're not doing that, but even if they were, as soon as the drone becomes slaved, it will cut all other connections, so all that will get the hacker is dumpshock.

[Doc Chaos]

If you try and connect to the slaved device (the drone) you will not be redirected, you will simply fail to connect to it [ACCESS DENIED].

Uhm, sure about that? Isn't the whole point of slaving (besides security) the automatic rerouting of connections?

[Eratosthenes]

Spoofing a command from the riggers comm to disconnect all users hammering him w/ dumpshock.

If the rigger is jumped in, you can't spoof it. All outside connections are ignored, effectively, if the rigger's jumped in.

[darune]

After reading my own post i see the confusion.

The scenario would be a corp rigger and a corp hacker working in concert. As you mentioned, when the drone starts up, the corp rigger will be jumped in AND the corp hacker will be "patrolling" looking for the runner to connect. If the corp rigger slaved the drone, then said corp hacker will be on the master.

[FenrisWolf]

If the rigger is jumped in, you can't spoof it. All outside connections are ignored, effectively, if the rigger's jumped in.

So would the PC hacker be able to attempt a hack on the fly and gain access to the corp rigger VR controlled drone? If so, what would the opposed test be?

[Eratosthenes]

So would the PC hacker be able to attempt a hack on the fly and gain access to the corp rigger VR controlled drone? If so, what would the opposed test be?

Yes, he can still hack in as normal (Hacking + Exploit vs. Firewall + Analyze). But he wouldn't be able to control the drone, until the rigger is dealt with.

I meant outside commands, not outside connections, sorry.