[SR4A] Bows for the unaugmented human don't kill? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

As of SR4A the maximum damage a bow, or correctly the arrow fired from a bow, can inflict is Rating *1.5. With Rating 6 (maximum for norms and elves without attack penalty) only 9P can be inflicted with such a weapon. With a bow for average humans it gets even more ridiculous. The maximum damage is 3*1.5= 4.5; the Bow however does a minimum of 6P.

The rules don't even specify if custom arrows (from Arsenal) or Called shots can surpass this limit.

Did someone go too far in trying to make troll bows more reasonable? I think this attempt failed, 18P(maximum for a STR 12 Bow, needs 4 net hits) should put a dent in most targets.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, can light and medium pistols kill?

[Dakka Dakka]

A skilled shooter can kill with them.

IIRC there are no medium pistols in SR4

[Yerameyahu]

Heh, I meant 4P and 5P pistols, because of his '4.5P' example. But right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

As of SR4A the maximum damage a bow, or correctly the arrow fired from a bow, can inflict is Rating *1.5. With Rating 6 (maximum for norms and elves without attack penalty) only 9P can be inflicted with such a weapon. With a bow for average humans it gets even more ridiculous. The maximum damage is 3*1.5= 4.5; the Bow however does a minimum of 6P.

The rules don't even specify if custom arrows (from Arsenal) or Called shots can surpass this limit.

Did someone go too far in trying to make troll bows more reasonable? I think this attempt failed, 18P(maximum for a STR 12 Bow, needs 4 net hits) should put a dent in most targets.

I didn't even notice this rule. If Max damage would be something around 15P it would be reasonable, but this is insane.

I prefer my own fix (bows have damage Str/2+3, 5P average user (almost a bit too high), 9P for strong trolls (modified by net hits of course with no real cap).

[Shinobi Killfist]

If the max damage was purely for the purpose of shooting through barriers I could buy it, but an arrow through your head is an arrow through your head. Some things in 4A seems like we know a problem exists, we will "fix" it with another problem. I like FriendoftheDork's solution since it makes bows consistent with other muscle powered weapons. As you pointed out what adds to the idiocy of this rule is with someone with a 6 strength there base damage is 9, because they can only get the benefit of one net hit. In fact they whether they hit or miss they do 9P or nothing.

[Dumori]

I've not read the trollbow "fixing" rules as I dont see the need to fix something with to be fair has one never really come up as a problem.

[Dahrken]

Which page are those rules ? I looked for them but the only thing I found was the limit to a Strength of 8 in the "Gear" section.

[Dakka Dakka]

STR 8? It's twelve.

Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 12. The maximum Damage Value an arrow fired from the bow can inflict is equal to the bow’s rating x1.5.

[Tyro]

I too would love to see a better fix. FriendOfTheDork's fix might work, but does anyone else have other suggestions?

[Emeraldknite]

Does any one know where this rule is? The one about the damage cap? I can find nothing in my book about it. I only see the one on SR4A p 316

[Karoline]

I'd just remove the 1.5*rating cap on a bow. That's silly, there is no built in cap on how much damage a pistol can do. I don't have the book, so can't look up if the rule is actually in there or not, but if it is, it sounds like a knee jerk reaction to the troll bow that did more damage than an assault cannon.

Personally I've always though this direct comparison of strength to damage is a bit silly. Modern compound bows make draw strength a much lower requirement than something like a long bow anyway, so I don't see that someone stronger is going to be able to draw a bow that much more powerful. Heck, to be perfectly honest, with all the tech available in SR, there isn't any reason the pulleys could turn themselves and basically draw the bow for you, making strength of the user utterly irrelevant.

I do like FotD's solution. Brings it in line with other strength based weapons. Means a troll isn't god with a bow, and a human can still do something useful with it. Leave the strength cap at 8, so the best bow does about the damage of an assault rifle, and a low pull bow is somewhere in line with a holdout.

[Tyro]

Yeah, I think FotD is right. I'm going to adopt his fix into my houserules document. YOINK!

[Mantis]

Some of you are referencing the SR4a PDF and some the actual print book. Bows are different in each source. Yay! More inconsistency. One of my players pointed this out recently and he only has the PDF. I checked my PDF and he is right about the arrow cap, but then I checked my hardcover and it is different. No cap on max damage other than the fact a bow has a max strength of 8. Therefore Max base damage is 8P with no limit on number of hits you can get. Hardcover rules trump PDF rules (unless all you got is the PDF).

[Muspellsheimr]

I prefer my own fix (bows have damage Str/2+3, 5P average user (almost a bit too high), 9P for strong trolls (modified by net hits of course with no real cap).

Your fix?

LOL

This ruling has been used by many more people than you, for longer than you. The only other point you have ever brought this up is claiming you liked it from another's list of House Rules.

I have been posting/promoting this rule for well over a year (possibly two), and have been using it nearly as long as you, potentially even longer (you having used it for slightly over two years at the most).



I don't have a problem with you sharing ideas for House Rules.
I do have a problem with you claiming they are "yours", when they so very clearly are not.


Edit: As others have mentioned, the maximum of bows, Rules as Written, is Rating 8, with no other limits.
For those of you thinking the PDF & Print books are different - wrong. You are using out of date PDFs - they where corrected long before the hardcover was printed.

[Medicineman]

STR 8? It's twelve.

I'm sorry ,but its 8 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
it used to be 12 ,but the Rules have been Errattaed (in the German BBB pg 361)
together with the x1,5 "Issue"

the newest Rules simply say
Damage = MinSTR+2 for Bows (capped at STR8 /Dam 10P)

with the newest german Dance
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

While this nerfs troll bows even more, at least it isn't as stupid for normal bows.

[Medicineman]

I Agree (even though 2 of my Chars are Troll Archers) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hough!
Medicineman

[Karoline]

You know, if it says it like that, I don't know that they mean the cap on damage capable of being delt is 10P, but instead that the cap is on the base damage of a bow.

Personally I still think 10P damage is ridiculous, given that is as much as an assault cannon.

Also, Mu, no reason to blow up at FotD like that. He likely meant 'my fix' as in 'the fix that I use'. Kind of like how I use the term 'my car' as in 'the car that I use' even though the bank technically still owns it till I've finished paying it off, and I certainly don't mean to claim that I designed and built my car from scratch.

[D2F]

I'm sorry ,but its 8 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
it used to be 12 ,but the Rules have been Errattaed (in the German BBB pg 361)
together with the x1,5 "Issue"

the newest Rules simply say
Damage = MinSTR+2 for Bows (capped at STR8 /Dam 10P)

with the newest german Dance
Medicineman

That's not just in the german version =) The early SR4A pdf version has it wrong,t hough. They left the original rules text, but changed the table stats.

[Dumori]

If you think troll bow do too much damage you haven't seen some of the unarmed combat biuld on the forums they do 13-16P with there fists.

[Karoline]

If you think troll bow do too much damage you haven't seen some of the unarmed combat biuld on the forums they do 13-16P with there fists.

Which if I recall includes things like being an adept and taking 20BP of martial arts qualities and being in melee range and burning a large number of your power points towards that.

Compare that to: Pick up a bow.

Yeah, sure, you can get crazy high unarmed damage, but it is a heck of alot harder than being a troll and picking up a bow.

That's not to say I'm, you know, super happy with the idea of a person punching harder than an assault cannon, but given the magic involved and excessive amount of effort and investment, I certainly don't mind it as much.

[FriendoftheDork]

Your fix?

LOL

This ruling has been used by many more people than you, for longer than you. The only other point you have ever brought this up is claiming you liked it from another's list of House Rules.

I have been posting/promoting this rule for well over a year (possibly two), and have been using it nearly as long as you, potentially even longer (you having used it for slightly over two years at the most).



I don't have a problem with you sharing ideas for House Rules.
I do have a problem with you claiming they are "yours", when they so very clearly are not.


Edit: As others have mentioned, the maximum of bows, Rules as Written, is Rating 8, with no other limits.
For those of you thinking the PDF & Print books are different - wrong. You are using out of date PDFs - they where corrected long before the hardcover was printed.

Easy man, I'm not intentionally claiming credit for other people's rules. This is my fix, and I honestly can't remember yoinking them from anyone else, although it may be inspired from Synner's old ones, can't remember. In any case changing Str to Str/2 doesn't take much imagination anyway so a pararell development isn't that far fetched, is it?

Although if bows are capped at rating 8 it's not that much point anymore since 10P would be the max. At least that's not better than the Assault cannon.

[Karoline]

Although if bows are capped at rating 8 it's not that much point anymore since 10P would be the max. At least that's not better than the Assault cannon.

Not better than, but the idea that an arrow can be as strong as an Assault cannon?

There is a reason you don't see bows on the battlefield, and haven't for a few centuries; they aren't nearly as effective as a gun. Even back when guns sucked they were preferred over bows unless you were comparing an unskilled musketeer to a highly skilled archer.

[D2F]

Not better than, but the idea that an arrow can be as strong as an Assault cannon?

There is a reason you don't see bows on the battlefield, and haven't for a few centuries; they aren't nearly as effective as a gun. Even back when guns sucked they were preferred over bows unless you were comparing an unskilled musketeer to a highly skilled archer.

The advent of gunpoweder weapons came not withtheir indivdual effectives, but with the ease of training soldiers with them. You could take arecruit, slap a few moths of training on them and they'd be good to go with a gunpowder weapons. You needed years of training for efficient archers. Also, you could carry more bullets and powder than you could carry fletched arrows. And the ammunition was faster to produce.

I agree that a 10P bow is ludicrous, but it would also require 8 Strength to pull it. No living human would even come close to puling a bow with that kind of punch. The sheer mass of arrows fired with such a monster would be considerably more than regular bullet and the potential trauma would be devastating. Not to mentiont hat it would be highly effective against your average bulletproof vest.

STR8 would be what? A 300-400 lbs bow? If you just think of the nescessary mass of an arrow with enough structural integrity not to shatter the moment you release the bowstring and what it would do hitting you...

Yeah, 10P might be a bit over board, but I could definitely see an 8P code justified.