Vehicle speed and combat turns, which combat turn? Options

[Penta]

Okay, quick question. Simple question. That I cannot figure out the answer to.

A vehicle's speed attribute...Is that measured over 1-minute chase combat turns, or 3-second tactical combat turns?

[DireRadiant]

The numbers are Walking/Running and the single value Speed

p. 168 Tactical Combat
"In standard tactical combat, a vehicle is treated as an extension of the
driver. Initiative is resolved as normal."

In Tactical Combat, the 3 second one, use the same procedures as a character p. 149 SR4A for Walking and Running tests.


In Chase Combat Mode the Walking and Running speeds don't matter as much, but the Speed does. Speed is the vehicle speed. This greatly affects the step in the Chase Combat which determines what range the vehicles are engaged in.

The range then determines if the vehicle is in ramming range, which does use the Walking/Running numbers.

If the Ramming is successful, then you do need to know the relative speed of the vehicles for the chart. This will depend on the situation as it has evolved.

[Karoline]

Speed is per combat turn. Just do the math. Dodge scoot has a speed of 60. If that is meters per combat turn, it translates into 45 mph, which sounds entirely reasonable.

[DireRadiant]

Oops, sorry, Karoline got it.

P. 168 SR4A "Speed is expressed in meters per Combat Turn."

[Cain]

Speed is per combat turn. Just do the math. Dodge scoot has a speed of 60. If that is meters per combat turn, it translates into 45 mph, which sounds entirely reasonable.

Yeah, but there's two combat turn lengths possible. Which is why Penta asked, and why it's a problem.

[Karoline]

Yeah, but there's two combat turn lengths possible. Which is why Penta asked, and why it's a problem.

Sorry, do the math at SPEED meters/3s (The 'combat turn' that is used 99.9% of the time) and you come out to 45mph. Obviously if you do that SPEED meters/minute, it comes out to something like 2.25mph, which seems a tad on the slow side, even for a dodge scoot.

Edit: Also, there is only one kind of combat turn, and that is the one that lasts 3seconds. The other thing you're thinking of is called a Chase Turn.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, but there's two combat turn lengths possible. Which is why Penta asked, and why it's a problem.

Why exactly is it a problem?

Having played the new edition since it has been out... I have never been in tactical combat with a vehicle... as such, the chase rules were always used...

the reason for this is simple... Vehicular Movement is not conducinve to tactical movement... once vehicles are involved, we have automatically switched to Chase combat... we have never had any issues in doing so...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Sorry, do the math at SPEED meters/3s (The 'combat turn' that is used 99.9% of the time) and you come out to 45mph. Obviously if you do that SPEED meters/minute, it comes out to something like 2.25mph, which seems a tad on the slow side, even for a dodge scoot.

Edit: Also, there is only one kind of combat turn, and that is the one that lasts 3seconds. The other thing you're thinking of is called a Chase Turn.

*cough* There is only one kind of combat turn.

[Cain]

Why exactly is it a problem?

Having played the new edition since it has been out... I have never been in tactical combat with a vehicle... as such, the chase rules were always used...

the reason for this is simple... Vehicular Movement is not conducinve to tactical movement... once vehicles are involved, we have automatically switched to Chase combat... we have never had any issues in doing so...

The problem is, if you intend to follow the rules, you have an incredible mess on your hands. Since Chase combat runs on 1min turns, and regular combat runs on 3sec turns, things get mighty wonky real fast. Not to mention the ridiculousness that occurs when you have vehicles of wildly differing speed and ability. If you have a Dodge scoot chasing a helicopter, and the scoot has a higher dice pool, the helicopter will simply be unable to escape without massive handwavium.

Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.) My mage called in her bound Force 10 spirit, and had it use the Movement power on our vehicle.

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Under 4.0, the others would not have suffered a speed penalty. If anything, *we* would have been the ones suffering a massive penalty. We would still be facing the same opposed tests, and they'd still be winning. Under 4.5, we'd both be suffering from a speed penalty, so the net could be the same. Even if we did manage to push their dice pool to 0, and they didn't Longshot, it would take a minimum of five minutes to escape. That's one turn going from Short to Medium, another to go from Medium to Long, and then three turns doing Break Off tests. And even assuming it was an Easy test to begin with, we'd have a minimum Threshold of 12 each turn to Break Off. It might take a lot longer, even though we're outpacing fighter aircraft and they're only on motorcycles.

See how silly this gets? And that's just one example. But the fact is, unless you like handwaving combat, the rules do not work as advertised.

[DireRadiant]

It seems entirely reasonable for it to take 5 minutes for one vehicle to completely remove itself from the potential engagement range of another during Chase Combat.

[The Monk]

The problem is, if you intend to follow the rules, you have an incredible mess on your hands. Since Chase combat runs on 1min turns, and regular combat runs on 3sec turns, things get mighty wonky real fast. Not to mention the ridiculousness that occurs when you have vehicles of wildly differing speed and ability. If you have a Dodge scoot chasing a helicopter, and the scoot has a higher dice pool, the helicopter will simply be unable to escape without massive handwavium.

Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.) My mage called in her bound Force 10 spirit, and had it use the Movement power on our vehicle.

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Under 4.0, the others would not have suffered a speed penalty. If anything, *we* would have been the ones suffering a massive penalty. We would still be facing the same opposed tests, and they'd still be winning. Under 4.5, we'd both be suffering from a speed penalty, so the net could be the same. Even if we did manage to push their dice pool to 0, and they didn't Longshot, it would take a minimum of five minutes to escape. That's one turn going from Short to Medium, another to go from Medium to Long, and then three turns doing Break Off tests. And even assuming it was an Easy test to begin with, we'd have a minimum Threshold of 12 each turn to Break Off. It might take a lot longer, even though we're outpacing fighter aircraft and they're only on motorcycles.

See how silly this gets? And that's just one example. But the fact is, unless you like handwaving combat, the rules do not work as advertised.

Were you guys having this chase on open salt flats or on streets with traffic and turns and stuff.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.)

Your GM should have used one roll for the group. Either that, or as soon as one biker loses, he's out of the chase. The one or two that made enough successes on one test, likely wouldn't make it again on the next.

On the other hand, he could have made it a teamwork test. A whole bunch of bikers should have had a decent chance to keep an eye on you, regardless of top speed, especially if it was unlikely you could reach it on crowded urban freeways.

[Falconer]

Obviously if you do that SPEED meters/minute, it comes out to something like 2.25mph, which seems a tad on the slow side, even for a dodge scoot.

What?! You didn't get the memo about the big troll on a small scoot tooling down main street.

[Cain]

Your GM should have used one roll for the group. Either that, or as soon as one biker loses, he's out of the chase. The one or two that made enough successes on one test, likely wouldn't make it again on the next.

On the other hand, he could have made it a teamwork test. A whole bunch of bikers should have had a decent chance to keep an eye on you, regardless of top speed, especially if it was unlikely you could reach it on crowded urban freeways.

Yes, but that wouldn't have been canon. You're suggesting we ignore the rules to have fun. Which isn't a bad idea, I'll grant, but we are discussing RAW.

It seems entirely reasonable for it to take 5 minutes for one vehicle to completely remove itself from the potential engagement range of another during Chase Combat.

When one group is going about 90 mph, and the other is going Mach 3.8?! Dude, in five minutes we'll have traveled more than they could go in an hour!

[DireRadiant]

Yes, but that wouldn't have been canon. You're suggesting we ignore the rules to have fun. Which isn't a bad idea, I'll grant, but we are discussing RAW.


When one group is going about 90 mph, and the other is going Mach 3.8?! Dude, in five minutes we'll have traveled more than they could go in an hour!

At 3.8 mach your bonus dice for the engagement range roll makes further rolls moot in any case. There are always cases where it's obvious the dice roll and mechanical steps don't matter and you do Hand Wavium. You can do this for any situation where you might have a die roll. There's a thread about nuclear explosion damage resistance tests for example. Not everything needs to be resolved by a die roll and the mechanics simply because the die roll mechanic exists. There are situations that render the die roll essentially meaningless. Rendering the die roll meaningless through en extreme example does not invalidate the original fundamental die mechanic which works in most situations.

The core mechanics are for resolving common situations, I can break all of them with extreme examples, because that's what extreme examples do. They break things. This doesn't make the common resolutions method broken. When things get to extremes, that where people come in and make decisions that help them have fun.

[Drats]

When one group is going about 90 mph, and the other is going Mach 3.8?! Dude, in five minutes we'll have traveled more than they could go in an hour!

Theoretically, yes. But part of the reason that the vehicle rules are abstracted is to handle things like traffic and situational hazards, which are typically going to keep you from reaching 90mph OR Mach 3.8 unless you happen to have a good deal of hardened vehicle armor and a markedly cavalier attitude regarding collateral damage. As The Monk said before me, most chases don't take place through salt flats.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem is, if you intend to follow the rules, you have an incredible mess on your hands. Since Chase combat runs on 1min turns, and regular combat runs on 3sec turns, things get mighty wonky real fast. Not to mention the ridiculousness that occurs when you have vehicles of wildly differing speed and ability. If you have a Dodge scoot chasing a helicopter, and the scoot has a higher dice pool, the helicopter will simply be unable to escape without massive handwavium.

Here's a true story for you. This was under the 4.0 rules, but I'll be sure to discuss the differences. We were in a souped-up racecar, with a Speed of 300. We were being chased by a go-gang, on various motorcycles; let's assume a top speed of 120. Neither of us had a rigger, so it came down to opposed rolls. Even though we beat most of the gangers, one or two of them would roll enough successes to beat our total, keeping them in Close range even though we were going twice as fast as they would. (SR4.5 grants a DP penalty to the slower vehicles, but the fact that they were making 12 rolls to our 1 still shifts the odds in their favor.) My mage called in her bound Force 10 spirit, and had it use the Movement power on our vehicle.

3000 meters/turn = 3600 KPH = Mach 3.8. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Now, the GM quite correctly decided to use handwavium, and simply declared that we escaped. But what would have happened if we had used the rules?

Under 4.0, the others would not have suffered a speed penalty. If anything, *we* would have been the ones suffering a massive penalty. We would still be facing the same opposed tests, and they'd still be winning. Under 4.5, we'd both be suffering from a speed penalty, so the net could be the same. Even if we did manage to push their dice pool to 0, and they didn't Longshot, it would take a minimum of five minutes to escape. That's one turn going from Short to Medium, another to go from Medium to Long, and then three turns doing Break Off tests. And even assuming it was an Easy test to begin with, we'd have a minimum Threshold of 12 each turn to Break Off. It might take a lot longer, even though we're outpacing fighter aircraft and they're only on motorcycles.

See how silly this gets? And that's just one example. But the fact is, unless you like handwaving combat, the rules do not work as advertised.

Sorry... We have never experienced situations like you have described... It just has never happened... not even in 4th Edition before the anniversary edition...

There are several things in that scenario that I have issues with, but that is not for this particular discussion, and have been covered in previous threads before... No need to bring back old arguments that are already done... And others have addressed some of them above, so it would really not be in anyone's interest to start a fight about it...

Keep the Faith

[Cain]

At 3.8 mach your bonus dice for the engagement range roll makes further rolls moot in any case. There are always cases where it's obvious the dice roll and mechanical steps don't matter and you do Hand Wavium. You can do this for any situation where you might have a die roll. There's a thread about nuclear explosion damage resistance tests for example. Not everything needs to be resolved by a die roll and the mechanics simply because the die roll mechanic exists. There are situations that render the die roll essentially meaningless. Rendering the die roll meaningless through en extreme example does not invalidate the original fundamental die mechanic which works in most situations.

The core mechanics are for resolving common situations, I can break all of them with extreme examples, because that's what extreme examples do. They break things. This doesn't make the common resolutions method broken. When things get to extremes, that where people come in and make decisions that help them have fun.

The movement power is common. Facing down a go-gang of 12 is common. Combining the two may not be as common, but it can happen.

The point of my exaggerated example is to highlight a problem at lower levels. You need to resort to handwavium an awful lot, even under normal circumstances. For example, if a rigger on a Scoot is trying to follow an ordinary pilot in a Lone Star Helicopter, the rigger can stay within 5 meters of the chopper, even though it's twenty stories up.

Theoretically, yes. But part of the reason that the vehicle rules are abstracted is to handle things like traffic and situational hazards, which are typically going to keep you from reaching 90mph OR Mach 3.8 unless you happen to have a good deal of hardened vehicle armor and a markedly cavalier attitude regarding collateral damage. As The Monk said before me, most chases don't take place through salt flats.

And then we have to take the Movement power into account, which really is magic. Admittedly, the GM did apply a huge penalty for us to come to a stop. I really should have burned another service to make the car decelerate, but I didn't think of it at the time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The movement power is common. Facing down a go-gang of 12 is common. Combining the two may not be as common, but it can happen.

The point of my exaggerated example is to highlight a problem at lower levels. You need to resort to handwavium an awful lot, even under normal circumstances. For example, if a rigger on a Scoot is trying to follow an ordinary pilot in a Lone Star Helicopter, the rigger can stay within 5 meters of the chopper, even though it's twenty stories up.

Not unless he is travelling in a straight line like the Helicopter is...

Keep the Faith