Why play an Adept when a Magician can do everything? Options

[Karoline]

Okay, so, some stuff that adepts can do that mages can't necessarily do very well.

Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
Temperature Tolerance
Three-Dimensional Memory
Improved Sense
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Voice Control:

So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.

[Udoshi]

Nice list.

Mystic adepts also don't need sustaining foci - heightened concentration(digital grimoire) can do that for them. Saves karma, and again, less things that can astrally traced back to you.

[Karoline]

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit anyone?
SCNR

So glad I'm not at work or anything while watching this.

"We could do that... or I could just summon a hoard of angels to sort it all out."

[Samoth]

Many of the below can be replaced with qualities or spells, or cyber/bio which is mroe efficient than spending power points sometimes:

Okay, so, some stuff that adepts can do that mages can't necessarily do very well.

Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Quality

Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Quality and martial arts (and cyber/bio)

Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
I guess there's no equivalent, but why would you want to be Berserk?

Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Photographic Memory quality; some nano/geneware helps with memory

Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Quality

Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Oxygenate spell

Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Linguistics Quality is better than the adept power (2 karma to have any skill at rating 3 effectively)

Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Nutrition (? or is it sustenance) spell

Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Very low use power, but true

Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
There are lots of spells that can blow holes in things

Temperature Tolerance
Aren't there spirit abilities that protect against elements?

Three-Dimensional Memory
Not sure about this one

Improved Sense
Cyber beats these powers hands down, mage or not

Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Dodge/Gymnastics skills is better

Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Damage compensators cheaper and better

Voice Control:
Cyber can do this better, but no specific spells I can think of


So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.

[Dakka Dakka]

Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell. Oxygenate lets you breathe under water. I can't imagine why it wouldn't work in toxic/non-breathable gases
Improved Sense Easily done with a custom detection spell. IIRC there is even one for Thermographic vision in Street Magic. Not such a stretch to invent Ultrasonic hearing.
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit. Deflection and Combat sense work better IIRC
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand. There is.

[Draco18s]

I am looking for things that adepts can do that mages can't. I really can't think of many.

Adept powers are on all the time and don't have a sustaining penalty, nor do they require an expensive focus.

Analytics and other minor powers that aren't directly duplicatable (and you can get for just having magic, no need to spend 3 BP on a circumstantial spell or get 'ware).

[Karoline]

Many of the below can be replaced with qualities or spells, or cyber/bio which is mroe efficient than spending power points sometimes:

Well, now we're getting into a different discussion, and also keep in mind that you could always have both the quality/cyber/bio and the power in most cases. Also keep in mind that there is a limit on qualities/cyber/bio, while power points are theoretically virtually unlimited.

Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell. Oxygenate lets you breathe under water. I can't imagine why it wouldn't work in toxic/non-breathable gases

Yeah, was thinking about that, but thought it did something slightly different for some reason

Improved Sense Easily done with a custom detection spell. IIRC there is even one for Thermographic vision in Street Magic. Not such a stretch to invent Ultrasonic hearing.

A spell seems somewhat expensive compared to .25 power points though.

Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit. Deflection and Combat sense work better IIRC

Maybe, though the effect is somewhat different, as catching the item could be useful.

Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand. There is.

Oh? Weird, thought there wasn't. Ah well.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hermit's question of why play a hacker over a Technomancer have been well answered in another thread, he continues to stick his fingers in his ears and lalala in the face of it but that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.

Magicians under some interpretations, especially if no distinction is made in what the different magic attributes are used for are unbalanced in fact it's part of why GM's are cautioned against allowing people to play them. As others have pointed out adepts are a lot lower profile astrally and have quite a bit of "always ready" ability to them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

1. Is an optional rule, it should be standard though.
2. True
3. Extended Masking takes care of this for the mage. Some cheesey mages also put a Manascape spell quickened to them to fix it also.

I play a Mystic adept (160 career karma, magic 7), and we are gimpier than an adept for the first 100 karma or so. But the Adept is the weakest path in the long run, IMO.

For 3. It reduces the problems it does not eliminate them. There is a limit to how much you can mask, and even masked as far as I can tell a ward will still bring them down or bring the ward down if the focus is stronger. Which means a lot of dropping and resetting up in secure areas. That may not be an issue for certain never take drain builds though.

Honestly in play adepts seem fine to me. In a super long campaign the mage might start pulling off there tricks. For me the only super broken part of mages is spirits. Outside of them mages rarely will have enough spells and focuses to really do what is being suggested in this thread. i guess my point is there is a difference in having X abilities available from your long list of available abilities and actually having them on a character in play.

[hermit]

Hermit's question of why play a hacker over a Technomancer have been well answered in another thread, he continues to stick his fingers in his ears and lalala in the face of it but that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.

Way to miss the point I was making, Lurker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Samoth]

Anyone care to whip up a list of Adept abilities that cannot be replicated through spells/spirits/cyber/bio/qualities? I think it will be a short list, all things considered.

[LurkerOutThere]

I got your point although I didn't signal my acknowledgement or even agreement with it but then again there is no thematic difference between a magician and an adept or mage when you get to brass tacks.

[hermit]

Most can be replicated, but not many can be replicated with the same effectiveness. Also, Adepts can have way more powers active at the same time than a mage can ever hope to.

I got your point although I didn't signal my acknowledgement or even agreement with it but then again there is no thematic difference between a magician and an adept or mage when you get to brass tacks.

And there is a thematic difference between hackers and technomancers ...?

Okay, just so it wasn't misunderstood: my point is 'stop the bitching over petty numbers and play your character, because all this number crunching will get you nowhere'.

[Nal0n]

Why play an Adept?

Just because Bruce Lee und Chuck Norris are both Adepts ... and they are cool as hell, that's why! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Nixda]

Why play an Adept ? Cause they'll always take the mage down first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

I think the real question of the thread is 'Why play a Mundane when both adepts and magicians do it better?'.

[LurkerOutThere]

That in my mind is the true question facing the setting every time they release a new magic book but the cybertech is more or leass where it was in first editon save a bunch of mage friendly bioware.

And there is a thematic difference between hackers and technomancers ...?

Quite a signifigant one actually but I suspect this is not a point i'm going to persuade you of anytime soon.

[hermit]

That in my mind is the true question facing the setting every time they release a new magic book but the cybertech is more or leass where it was in first editon save a bunch of mage friendly bioware.

True, though that actually makes sense with the setting, considering Earthdawn would not even allow you to play mundanes because ... how that would suck.

Quite a signifigant one actually but I suspect this is not a point i'm going to persuade you of anytime soon.

No, you're not, so we best agree to disagree?

[Ascalaphus]

I think the obvious answer is: they want to play a ninja/athlete/etc, not a spellcaster.

[BlueMax]

I think the real question of the thread is 'Why play a Mundane when both adepts and magicians do it better?'.

If you wanted to make a thread on this, I would be happy to contribute.

My players reached nearly the same conclusion. The only non Adept/Mage/Technomancer is the Fomori Tank.

BlueMax

[FriendoftheDork]

Adepts can move through Wards with Improved Reflexes etc. "on" while a mage must deactivate his sustaining foci or have to force himself through (in any case triggering alarms).

And how exactly mages as good unarmed combatants as Adepts? Is there a mage can boost his unarmed damage without having to boost his strength (the worst possible way)?

And no Stunbolts and Manabolts are not the same even if they can be used in close combat with no problem. Hmm makes me think there should be some penalty to casting ranged/area spells while in close combat (kinda like with guns).

[Karoline]

And no Stunbolts and Manabolts are not the same even if they can be used in close combat with no problem. Hmm makes me think there should be some penalty to casting ranged/area spells while in close combat (kinda like with guns).

Not identical, but the effect is the same. You've taken down an opponent in melee range, with the added benefit of you could have just as easily done it from a mile away.

[Ascalaphus]

I think a lot of the "superiority" of magicians goes out of the window if the enemy has someone with Counterspelling.. Adepts have less problems with that.

[BlueMax]

I think a lot of the "superiority" of magicians goes out of the window if the enemy has someone with Counterspelling.. Adepts have less problems with that.

Thats full of Win. Though some of my players throw a hissy fit if I have Counterspelling. Let's not even talk about what happens if I drop Mana Static. (Which would be bad for adepts too)

BlueMax

[Banaticus]

Well, with magic, with a large selection of spells, you can potentially do about anything. As an adept, you're limited to how many magic points you can spend on powers, which is only going to be 6 points (max) to start with and just raising your magic (gaining just two more magic points) to 8 will cost...
10+1*3+7*5+10+2*3+8*5= 104 karma points. If you're playing in Shadowrun Missions, earning the max karma from each adventure, that's 18 adventures, just to raise Magic two points, nothing else. If you're a member of a magic group, with all the stringent things that are included with that, you'll save a whole whopping 5 karma.

As a magician, anything you cast uses your whole magic attribute. Learn a new spell? Cast it with your whole magic. Learn 10 new spells? Cast them all with your whole magic. An adept who picks up a power with a rating can only spend a new point on that power -- none of the rest of the magic rating will apply to that power. For instance, a martial arts phys adept starts the game with 6 magic and buys Improved Reflexes I, Killing Hands and some other things, using up the rest of his power points. It's going to take him 104 karma to be able to get up to Improved Reflexes 3 after character creation, and that was starting already knowing Improved Reflexes I.

Meanwhile, the combat mage (who started not knowing any Increased Reflexes spell) just goes onto the matrix, buys the spell for the low price of 500 nuyen, spends 5 karma and two days and now only needs 4 successes on a Force 4 spell to cast the best version of Increase Reflexes and be getting +3 Initiative, +3 Initiative Passes. If the magician wanted to spend 4,500 nuyen, he could buy a rating 18 instructor so that he could learn the spell in less than a single day. For 48 karma, a magician can initiate and pick up the Quickening metamagic, which basically means his Increased Reflexes spell is "always on", but if he wants to use a Force 4 focus, he can literally have that spell up and running all the time.

Buying spells for a magician is cheap and learning the spell is cheap in karma, far cheaper than initiating and raising the magic attribute that the adept has to do. The magician might never raise his magic attribute and he'll do just fine.