Ritual Spellcasting, Query Options

[Rand]

Is it possible to locate a corpse with a blood sample? Any info would be great. Thanks.

[Banaticus]

Can you locate an object with a spell? Would having part of the wiring help you locate a lamp? There's a reason that Hoffa guy was never found... and not because nobody admitted to having magic at that time...

[Yerameyahu]

Well, having any part of a lamp might help you find it, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It depends on the magic system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[D2F]

Can you locate an object with a spell?

Yes.

[Rand]

Can you locate an object with a spell? Would having part of the wiring help you locate a lamp?

Well, in the book it does say something about using the brick from a building to ritually target the building, so yes. My problem is that the person was alive when the blood was spilt, but is now dead. Is that enough of a difference to keep the spell from working? Or, do they have a grace period?

[Karoline]

Never heard about targeting a building from a brick. I'd say it'd work with the blood, even if he is now dead. The blood is after all dead fairly shortly after you take it, as is a hair sample that can be used for targeting.

[Dahrken]

I remember that one, I think it is in Street Magic. IIRC it was also suggested the reverse. Put a piece of brick from the building somewhere (say in tour target's car trunk), then do your ritual in the building.

You use the whole to target the part (building -> brick) rather than the more usual reverse (say a piece of hair -> the "donor"), but in both cases there is a connexion that ritual magic can exploit.

[Ascalaphus]

What about using ritual magic to remotely destroy ritual samples connected to yourself?

[Karoline]

What about using ritual magic to remotely destroy ritual samples connected to yourself?

I like that. Ritually cast flamethrower to get rid of ritual samples of you. I think the problem is that you would have to know that a particular sample exists. You couldn't just ritually cast and target 'any samples out there' you'd have to target a particular one.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Sure you can ritually target a body through his blood sample, but how does that help you locate it? What spell could you cast on the body that would help you to find it?

[Karoline]

Sure you can ritually target a body through his blood sample, but how does that help you locate it? What spell could you cast on the body that would help you to find it?

Well, you can follow a ritual link through astral space, so could just project and follow it to them. Could also cast clarvoiance and might get a good idea of where they are. Throw out a sonic boom and have people around town listening for it, or maybe wait for it to appear on the news.

I'm sure there are some other ways out there.

[Ascalaphus]

I suppose you could make a Divination spell to determine spatial coordinates by detecting the earth magnetic field or something like that - and then cast that spell through a ritual sample's link.

[D2F]

Sure you can ritually target a body through his blood sample, but how does that help you locate it? What spell could you cast on the body that would help you to find it?

Clairvoyance.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Well, you can follow a ritual link through astral space, so could just project and follow it to them. Could also cast clarvoiance and might get a good idea of where they are. Throw out a sonic boom and have people around town listening for it, or maybe wait for it to appear on the news.

I'm sure there are some other ways out there.

Doesn't ritual casting make the target of your spell the thing for which you have the sympathetic link? So if you used clairvoyance on a corpse you could give the corpse clairvoyance but you couldn't see through it yourself. You can track through the link though so that works out.

[D2F]

Doesn't ritual casting make the target of your spell the thing for which you have the sympathetic link? So if you used clairvoyance on a corpse you could give the corpse clairvoyance but you couldn't see through it yourself. You can track through the link though so that works out.

The target would be the location of the body, not the body itself:

The subject can see distant scenes as if physically present at a chosen point within the sensory range of the spell. The “visual point” may be moved to any other point within range of the spell. The subject cannot use normal vision or astral perception while using it. This spell does not translate sound, only vision. Any augmented vision possessed by the subject does not function through this spell, nor does astral perception. Magicians cannot use clairvoyance to target others with spells.

[LurkerOutThere]

Can you locate an object with a spell? Would having part of the wiring help you locate a lamp? There's a reason that Hoffa guy was never found... and not because nobody admitted to having magic at that time...

Would you actually try and answer the question factually over trying to sound clever. Based on my understanding of rrituat magic and ritual tracking the answer is rather fuzzy, but I believe it is no thematically.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

The target would be the location of the body, not the body itself:

You can't target the body's location with a sympathetic link, you have to target the body itself because you have blood from the body, not chips of cement from the sidewalk the body is laying on. Clairvoyance allows the target to see distant scenes within range of the detection spell, but it has a target and casting it through ritual spellcasting only allows you to target whatever you have a link to. You can't use Ritual Spellcasting to extend the range of a spell, only to cast spells at targets outside of your line of sight/touch range with certain conditions. The only way you could see what your target was seeing would be with a Borrow Sense spell, but because the dead has no senses you'd be a little screwed. Maybe if you gave the corpse senses with a variant of the Thermographic Vision spell or something for normal vision and then borrowed it you'd be able to see what the corpse sees but normal clairvoyance doesn't work through Ritual Spellcasting.

[D2F]

You can't target the body's location with a sympathetic link, you have to target the body itself because you have blood from the body, not chips of cement from the sidewalk the body is laying on. Clairvoyance allows the target to see distant scenes within range of the detection spell, but it has a target and casting it through ritual spellcasting only allows you to target whatever you have a link to. You can't use Ritual Spellcasting to extend the range of a spell, only to cast spells at targets outside of your line of sight/touch range with certain conditions. The only way you could see what your target was seeing would be with a Borrow Sense spell, but because the dead has no senses you'd be a little screwed. Maybe if you gave the corpse senses with a variant of the Thermographic Vision spell or something for normal vision and then borrowed it you'd be able to see what the corpse sees but normal clairvoyance doesn't work through Ritual Spellcasting.

The body IS the target area.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

The body IS the target area.

Yes, so you can give the corpse clairvoyance, but that doesn't help you at all. Most detection spells are designed to give a target a sense, they are not designed to target a location and sense what is going on there. Notice Clairvoyance is a touch range spell, the target of the spell merely gains the clairvoyance power. If this were otherwise the vast majority of detection spells would not work as they would only allow you to detect things within touch range.

[Rand]

As I read the posts I believe that Patrick is right. Clairvoyance wouldn't work, but if the ritual spellcasting can be used to form a link to the body through which a spell can be cast, and that link followed astrally (by, say, a summoned spirit or watcher) then it is still a viable way to locate the target corpse. And, as the preservation of evidence is very important to the police, I believe that the best spell to cast on the corpse is Preservation. How does that sound?

[D2F]

Yes, so you can give the corpse clairvoyance, but that doesn't help you at all. Most detection spells are designed to give a target a sense, they are not designed to target a location and sense what is going on there. Notice Clairvoyance is a touch range spell, the target of the spell merely gains the clairvoyance power. If this were otherwise the vast majority of detection spells would not work as they would only allow you to detect things within touch range.

No, the spell does not grant Clairvoyance. It uses the target as the locus of your visual perception.

[Karoline]

the Gnome has it right.

Clairvoyance (Passive, Directional)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) –1
Th e subject can see distant scenes as if physically present at
a chosen point within the sensory range of the spell. Th e “visual
point” may be moved to any other point within range of the
spell. Th e subject cannot use normal vision or astral perception
while using it. Th is spell does not translate sound, only vision.
Any augmented vision possessed by the subject does not function
through this spell, nor does astral perception. Magicians
cannot use clairvoyance to target others with spells.

So actually, yes, the spell does grant Clairvoyance.

Remember, all the ritual does is let the target of a spell be whoever is the subject of the ritual. So in other words you could give clairvoyance to the target of the ritual, but you could not count the target of the ritual as being 'within the sensory range of the spell' so that you can spy on them.

Still, the link works for finding someone.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

No, the spell does not grant Clairvoyance. It uses the target as the locus of your visual perception.

The spell allows the subject to view distant scenes as if physically present there. Detection spells specifically grant their targets a new sense, which emanates in a radius from them. Detection spells are specifically designed so that you can cast them on team members and give them the ability to see with the Detection spell.

[hobgoblin]

my suggesting would be to send a spirit on a tracking mission, and then materialize in a easy to spot place close to the body.

[D2F]

The spell allows the subject to view distant scenes as if physically present there. Detection spells specifically grant their targets a new sense, which emanates in a radius from them. Detection spells are specifically designed so that you can cast them on team members and give them the ability to see with the Detection spell.

Good point. I concede.
You could just follow the link as the spotter, though and cast clairvoyance there =)