Spirits: Simultaneous Services?, especially powers that don't require rolls Options

[Nifft]

Could one spirit simultaneously use two or more powers? (Possibly as separate Services.)

I'm thinking about something like one spirit being able to sustain an Innate Spell, then also use its Concealment power on the team.

[LurkerOutThere]

By my reading of the book there is nothing against it, it will consume two services.

[Karoline]

By my reading of the book there is nothing against it, it will consume two services.

Agreed. No reason that a spirit can't be asked to do multiple things at once.

[Nifft]

Awesome, thanks for the answers.

A second question: it seems that an unbound spirit's "continuous use of a specific power" service could last up to 12 hours. Is there any limit on a bound spirit's "continuous use of a specific power" service duration? Or could I bind a spirit to just use its power on me forever?

[Karoline]

Awesome, thanks for the answers.

A second question: it seems that an unbound spirit's "continuous use of a specific power" service could last up to 12 hours. Is there any limit on a bound spirit's "continuous use of a specific power" service duration? Or could I bind a spirit to just use its power on me forever?

There is no time limit of any kind in the rules, which means people love binding a spirit of man with some spell to sustain on them for all eternity for one service. Personally I'd have it use up a service every sunrise/sunset at the very least.

[jimbo]

Spirit Hell

"Hey Bob...loooooong time no see!"

"Dude, I just got done sustaining Orgy at Marv's Sex Shop for 76 years. I need a drink."

[Nifft]

There is no time limit of any kind in the rules, which means people love binding a spirit of man with some spell to sustain on them for all eternity for one service. Personally I'd have it use up a service every sunrise/sunset at the very least.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I wanted to do... well, that and have it also use Guard for all eternity.

It seems to me that there's no reason for most mages to ever use the Spirit Binding service (which compels a spirit to sustain one of your spells for a number of days, at ruinous cost to the spirit), if they can just summon a Spirit of Man to cast their spell & sustain it for free, without any ruinous costs to anyone.

The 12-hour limit is abut what we'd come up with as a reasonable house rule pending figuring out what the RAW says. Sounds like this is some RAW that frequently gets cooked.

- - -

Okay, another question: how many services is it to have a spirit use the same power on many different targets? For example, if there were a chase going on, and you had a spirit who could use the Accident power, would it be 1 service to have it use the Accident power on each opponent, 1 service per opponent, or 1 service per use of the Accident power?

Can a single service be used against a group which is not fully defined at the time of the service declaration? For example: "Fly up 20 feet, follow me, and use your Accident power on any vehicle or drone that you can see until I say to stop."

[Falconer]

Actually the FAQ did clarify this finally.

As soon as the spirit uses another power, the prior service ends.

Quote:
"Is there a maximum period of time a spirit power may be used continuously at the cost of a single service?

Unbound spirits will only perform this service until the next sunrise or sunset, at which time it will depart, no matter how many services it has remaining. Bound spirits will continue to use their power continuously while the magician is alive, until disrupted, or until the magician orders them to use another service. A spirit subject to long-term binding (p.94, Street Magic) will continue for a year and a day, whether the magician dies or not."



This goes a HUGE way towards limiting the overpowering nature of spirits... as it now means that you won't have one spirit sustaining movement, concealment, etc. all at the same time.

That one service can last for a rediculously long time, but as soon as you change what it's doing it ends and does the new service. The way you get multiple concurrent powers is to use multiple spirits each doing one continuous use of a power (which counts as a service).

[Karoline]

I think the rules say it is one service to get a spirit to use a power, so it would be 1 service per use of the accident power. But that said, the second one would also be interpreted as a single service.

I think the general rule is that as long as you don't abuse your spirits, you can get a fair amount out of your services. If you abuse your spirits though, you would likely be using a service to have it fly up to 20 feet, another to have it follow you, and another for each use of accident as another service.

Spirits are basically the ultimate in 'up to GM interpretation' which is fairly nice, because it means they can adjust the power of spirits if they really need to.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Actually the FAQ did clarify this finally.

As soon as the spirit uses another power, the prior service ends.

Quote:
"Is there a maximum period of time a spirit power may be used continuously at the cost of a single service?

Unbound spirits will only perform this service until the next sunrise or sunset, at which time it will depart, no matter how many services it has remaining. Bound spirits will continue to use their power continuously while the magician is alive, until disrupted, or until the magician orders them to use another service. A spirit subject to long-term binding (p.94, Street Magic) will continue for a year and a day, whether the magician dies or not."



This goes a HUGE way towards limiting the overpowering nature of spirits... as it now means that you won't have one spirit sustaining movement, concealment, etc. all at the same time.

That one service can last for a rediculously long time, but as soon as you change what it's doing it ends and does the new service. The way you get multiple concurrent powers is to use multiple spirits each doing one continuous use of a power (which counts as a service).

Awesome. We frequently had concealed super speed ninjas of doom running around and it felt cheesy.(yes I was the mage doing it, but it still felt like a cheat) Limiting it to one service at a time is a great fix. At the very least you have to bind spirits now in order to have multiple spirit powers going on you at once(or multiple mages)

[Falconer]

Karoline:
Not necessarily... one combat counts as a single service... even though it may entail multiple uses of a power.


If your service is to ask the spirit to scout for you for example... the spirit very well may use it's concealment power on itself w/o you asking. The less direct the wording and the more discretion the sprit/GM has over how it's accomplished the more leeway there is in how the spirit does it.


IE: you order the spirit... wreck that car. That could count as one 'combat' GM willing... though the spirit may use accident repeatedly to try and pull it off. It also my just outright attack the car using elemental attack or innate weapon. Or any of another ways...

[Karoline]

Karoline:
Not necessarily... one combat counts as a single service... even though it may entail multiple uses of a power.


If your service is to ask the spirit to scout for you for example... the spirit very well may use it's concealment power on itself w/o you asking. The less direct the wording and the more discretion the sprit/GM has over how it's accomplished the more leeway there is in how the spirit does it.


IE: you order the spirit... wreck that car. That could count as one 'combat' GM willing... though the spirit may use accident repeatedly to try and pull it off. It also my just outright attack the car using elemental attack or innate weapon. Or any of another ways...

Right, that's why I said with the second example "Use accident on anyone who gets close to me." or whatever counts as a single service, even though it uses the power multiple times. I was just pointing out that the book also states that ordering the use of a particular power counts as a service, so there is some oddity in the fact that you can use a service to get a single use of a power, or you can use a single service to get many uses of a power via a somewhat indirect command like entering combat or scouting or something. However, if you're abusing spirits (GM discression) they can have the spirits follow more the letter of the request than the intent as is usually the case, and take multiple services for things that would usually only take one "You want me to go over there and tell you what I see?"

[Bull]

Also, as a player and a GM, binding spirits is... Well, it's slavery. Spirits don't really like this. As a GM, if I ever had a player start abusing spirits by continually sustaining things or even using them as cannon fodder, it will likely come back to bite them in the ass. After all, Spirits have Karma, and that Karma can be used for things like, oh, I don't know, resisting the Summon/Binding?

I've always been careful with my spirits. I treat them well, I ask them for things politely, and I let them out to play on occasion. I picture bound spirits to be a bit like Bob from the Dresden Files. Very useful, very helpful, but if you don't feed him a romance novel or let him go play in the girls dorm from time to time, he gets surely and unhelpful.

Bull

[Karoline]

I think you mean edge. But yeah, if you're bad to spirits, alot of things start happening. First they start requiring extra services for their tasks, then they start using edge to resist summons and bindings, and then you pick up the spirit bane quality. And you really don't want your first experience with the spirits using edge on you to be when you're binding some big F8 spirit or something.

[Falconer]

You're missing the word 'continual' from that. (IE: use concealment on me, and then the sustaining counts as a service)

Ordering the spirit to use a particular power, in my book, means you're incurring multiple services. Ordering the spirit to act as your bodyguard and attack anyone hostile. It may very well use accident or whatever else it deems fit. How can I put this, the spirit is compelled to be a servant... if you try and micromanage him it's going to cost you more services. You might order it to knock unconcious rather than kill... but even there that leaves discretion (melee or elemental attack(electricity)).

Just be aware of this.. I adopt very strict readings especially when it comes to spirits because they are so powerful in this edition.

[tisoz]

Actually the FAQ did clarify this finally.

As soon as the spirit uses another power, the prior service ends.

Quote:
"Is there a maximum period of time a spirit power may be used continuously at the cost of a single service?

Unbound spirits will only perform this service until the next sunrise or sunset, at which time it will depart, no matter how many services it has remaining. Bound spirits will continue to use their power continuously while the magician is alive, until disrupted, or until the magician orders them to use another service. A spirit subject to long-term binding (p.94, Street Magic) will continue for a year and a day, whether the magician dies or not."

This goes a HUGE way towards limiting the overpowering nature of spirits... as it now means that you won't have one spirit sustaining movement, concealment, etc. all at the same time.

That one service can last for a rediculously long time, but as soon as you change what it's doing it ends and does the new service. The way you get multiple concurrent powers is to use multiple spirits each doing one continuous use of a power (which counts as a service).

I'd have to say this FAQ answer conflicts with the stated rules concerning sustained critter powers. Most precisely the part about a critter being able to sustain a number of powers at one time equal to their Magic. I guess the FAQ answer only pertains to PC controlled critters, but those with free choice are not limited.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Meh, honestly, I don't think spirits are that dangerous, at least not materialized ones. High force spirits certainly, like the ones that you have to take physical drain to summon at chargen, but force 5 and below just don't have the firepower to frighten me, and I think any decently built character designed for combat can take out a spirit without even worrying about how dangerous it is. Certain powers, such as movement and concealment and Innate Spell, are awesome and excellent utility uses of spirits, but as far as summoning a spirit to actually fight, meh, you can do a lot better.

EDIT: @tisoz, the FAQ ruling doesn't prevent a spirit from sustaining multiple powers, only acting out multiple services at the same time. If you told a spirit "help me get to the top of this building as quickly and subtley as you can" it might very well cast Concealment and Movement on you as part of the same service, though GM discretion of course.

[Karoline]

Meh, honestly, I don't think spirits are that dangerous, at least not materialized ones. High force spirits certainly, like the ones that you have to take physical drain to summon at chargen, but force 5 and below just don't have the firepower to frighten me, and I think any decently built character designed for combat can take out a spirit without even worrying about how dangerous it is. Certain powers, such as movement and concealment and Innate Spell, are awesome and excellent utility uses of spirits, but as far as summoning a spirit to actually fight, meh, you can do a lot better.

That's especially true if you use spirit-zapper SnS ammo, since their immunity to normal weapons basically goes away. There are however alot of things to consider about a spirit's abilities in combat. The first and perhaps most important of which is that a spirit can pop up anywhere it wants, which will almost always mean behind you, which means you'll be more often than not surprised. Then a simple engulf can take someone completely out of the picture for a while, and if they get up close and personal, the elemental aura can be a pain.

Still, you're quite right, spirits aren't the super powerful things that they sometimes are made out to be until you get to really high force levels, which isn't such a bad thing considering how easily a mage can summon low force spirits.

Oh, and don't forget, a miniature army of spirits materializing behind you can be fairly scary from an elf shaman or something.

[tisoz]

To be more blunt - I think the FAQ answer makes up a rule that is not stated in the rules, when there are rules answering the question. It just looks like the FAQ author doesn't like the existing rules for this situation.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

To be more blunt - I think the FAQ answer makes up a rule that is not stated in the rules, when there are rules answering the question. It just looks like the FAQ author doesn't like the existing rules for this situation.

That's the same with a lot of the FAQ rulings, which is why I tend to consider them as more of an optional set of house rules rather than actual RAW. I generally like the FAQ, I think most of the things mentioned in it are fine and good for basic game use and clear up a few confusing rules. Some things though, like this rule about not being able to use multiple services at the same time, or the one about mystic adepts not being able to use their full magic attribute for spellcasting force, I think are are simply one devs opinion and don't truly represent the intentions of the people who wrote the rules, or even if they do, don't come in line with the way I like to run my game. So I pick and choose the FAQ rulings that I like and only use those. I would suggest anyone who wants to have a good grasp of the game to read the new FAQ, but don't take it too seriously and try and use the anniversary edition's RAW text over the FAQ where the FAQ directly contradicts RAW.

[Falconer]

I can buy this tisoz. But in this case, the FAQ does not contradict any published rules that I've seen so far.

The question isn't how many powers can it use at once.. the question is what constitutes a service and how long does a service last. Two things the rules are slightly vague on in the first and silent on in the second. This is basically saying, a spirit can only be compelled to provide one service at a time, even though it may be capable of more.


The purpose of a FAQ is to clarify, not errata. And this isn't one of the two areas where the FAQ does not clearly contradict the rules as you suggest.


Please spell out exactly... where in the rules does it say how long a service lasts for a bound spirit? It's not in there, I've looked and others have looked. Therefor it's up to GM discretion... in this case the FAQ at least provides some guidance.

[tisoz]

I can buy this tisoz. But in this case, the FAQ does not contradict any published rules that I've seen so far.

The question isn't how many powers can it use at once.. the question is what constitutes a service and how long does a service last. Two things the rules are slightly vague on in the first and silent on in the second. This is basically saying, a spirit can only be compelled to provide one service at a time, even though it may be capable of more.

Right, so why contradict what is clearly stated as possible with an answer that is not supported elsewhere? The publishers had no problem with telling the GM to use his own judgement, and in this case, we have been given some suggestions for consequences for abusing the length of a service. The FAQ answer goes beyond fixing the question at hand and invents a new rule limiting the use of simultaneous services. Something that is probably hundreds of times more commonly used than long term Services and something that otherwise abides within the printed rules.

The purpose of a FAQ is to clarify, not errata. And this isn't one of the two areas where the FAQ does not clearly contradict the rules as you suggest.


Please spell out exactly... where in the rules does it say how long a service lasts for a bound spirit? It's not in there, I've looked and others have looked. Therefor it's up to GM discretion... in this case the FAQ at least provides some guidance.

I would ask, "Where in the rules does it say a Service ends when another Service is commanded?" Especially when the rules seem to imply otherwise.

[Nifft]

One more question:

SR4A, p.188:
A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute. Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.

Which total? If I have Cha 3, and I've got one Bound & one Unbound spirit, and I then send the Unbound spirit off on a remote service -- can I now summon another Unbound spirit?

Thanks, -- N

[LurkerOutThere]

No

[HappyDaze]

Also, as a player and a GM, binding spirits is... Well, it's slavery. Spirits don't really like this.

Slavery perhaps, but that doesn't mean spirits are opposed to it. There is some suggestion that spirits draw a sustenance from the summoning, and even more from the binding. It's also possible that spirits 'enjoy' being away from their home metaplanes - remember that free spirits exist and hold greater power because they've found a way to permanently link themselves to the physical world. This may be a goal of many spirits, and binding today offers them a better chance at freedom down the road.