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> Cheating for joining a Magical Group?, Dang! Look at that threshold!
jimbo
post May 3 2010, 07:29 PM
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So you have a 5 Logic and Arcana 6 for 11dp, and you want to join a magical group sitting at a very low 10 members. Threshold is 1 + 10/5 + 1 net hit required, so 4 hits total. 5 Karma is spent pass or fail.

Dang, how does one cheat at this, especially if your magician isn't the high Arcana/Logic poindexter? Drugs like Psyche? Edge? (which would be ok, I would tell the player that point of Edge isn't refreshed until after his next run).

I know there is great potential for house rules, including "breaking" rules and allowing a particular deed/favor to provide a bonus when it is actually just a part of the strictures of membership. But seriously, why did Street magic even bother creating a Magical Groups with memberships in the teens and up to 30s. I know the really, really large groups have a rule where only the local membership is counted, but for a decent-sized singular-locale group with members in the 30s...how the frap did members 31, 32, and 33 join?

Threshold of 1 +30/5 + 1 net hit calls for 8 hits?!!? Arcana 7, Logic 7, Edge...I mean at that point a group would only be accepting apps from grade 10 initiates. Maybe lower depending on when you want to spend the Edge.

I just want to inject a little sanity here when I set up a few established Magical Groups in my campaign, and my player(s) are asking these same questions..."How the frap did Joe-Schmo get in?!!?" I guess my obvious answer is that the groups I create will have much smaller memberships than those presented in SM.
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Dumori
post May 3 2010, 07:52 PM
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Burn a point of edge you get +4 hits more that waht you needed. This technicaly works in attacks as well though decinding how many are needed before th soak roll makes no sense.
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kjones
post May 3 2010, 09:29 PM
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So the only way to get into a magical group is by burning Edge? That doesn't seem right...
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pbangarth
post May 3 2010, 09:37 PM
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You don't have to burn a point of Edge, you could just spend one. At 11 dice, chances are good you will get three hits, and then spend a point of Edge to reroll misses. Bob's your uncle, you're in. Spending Edge on something that is really important to the PC makes perfect sense.
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Dumori
post May 3 2010, 09:40 PM
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Burning Edge is for every other mage related task making the free spirt your bitch for life ect. Also for two points of edge you can have a force 12 spirit no problems. You just have to decide When its worth burning that edge.
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pbangarth
post May 3 2010, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ May 3 2010, 03:40 PM) *
Burning Edge is for every other mage related task making the free spirt your bitch for life ect. Also for two points of edge you can have a force 12 spirit no problems. You just have to decide When its worth burning that edge.
Please let's not open that discussion again!
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Ol' Scratch
post May 3 2010, 09:56 PM
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It's a goofy rule best left ignored. Especially the catch-all penalty about characters with geasa. (Oh, you want to add flavor to your character? Oh well, -3 dice for you when joining a group. Any group. Even ones that don't frown on the use of geasa.)

It's better to either transform the test into an Extended Test or simply assume the spending of Karma seals the deal. There's no need to pay Karma and then include a Success Test that has a fairly high chance of failure depending on the size of the group, meaning you have a fairly high chance of losing Karma for no good reason whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

There is such a thing as having too many and/or too strict rules. This is one of those cases.
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Udoshi
post May 3 2010, 10:05 PM
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You're missing some rather important rules about the initiatory groups.

Like that Large Groups are explicitly broken down into smaller, more managable circles within a larger organization. Illumiates of new dawn are given as an example about that. I believe Strictures may influence the Group Joining roll, but i'm away from book and that may only be for Founding one.

Its not unreasonable that an existing member would introduce a prospective new member. Cause, really, you need some members present to bring other people into a group. So, it may cost you a favor, but if they're letting you in, it should be easy to convince someone who's already in the group to Teamwork Test that Arcana roll. After all, -they- got in.

Edge is a good way to boost tests like this. Exploding sixes can do wonders.
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Banaticus
post May 3 2010, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 3 2010, 02:05 PM) *
Large Groups are explicitly broken down into smaller, more managable circles within a larger organization. Illumiates of new dawn are given as an example about that.

Yes, but 10 people shouldn't be a "too big" group.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 3 2010, 02:05 PM) *
it should be easy to convince someone who's already in the group to Teamwork Test that Arcana roll. After all, -they- got in.

Can that test be teamworked?
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jimbo
post May 3 2010, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 3 2010, 05:05 PM) *
You're missing some rather important rules about the initiatory groups.

Like that Large Groups are explicitly broken down into smaller, more managable circles within a larger organization. Illumiates of new dawn are given as an example about that. I believe Strictures may influence the Group Joining roll, but i'm away from book and that may only be for Founding one.


I specifically addressed this in the OP. Seriously.

Based on what's kicked around here, and especially Dr. F's post, I'll manage it when I GM and as a player either form my own group or vigorously work with the GM for him to set up Groups with a reasonable # of members.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would allow a non-poindexter mage who isn't already a very high-grade initiate to get into a group with over 20 members based in a single locale.
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Hagga
post May 4 2010, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 3 2010, 09:56 PM) *
It's a goofy rule best left ignored. Especially the catch-all penalty about characters with geasa. (Oh, you want to add flavor to your character? Oh well, -3 dice for you when joining a group. Any group. Even ones that don't frown on the use of geasa.)

It's better to either transform the test into an Extended Test or simply assume the spending of Karma seals the deal. There's no need to pay Karma and then include a Success Test that has a fairly high chance of failure depending on the size of the group, meaning you have a fairly high chance of losing Karma for no good reason whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

There is such a thing as having too many and/or too strict rules. This is one of those cases.

Makes sense from a fluff perceptive, though. Stops people from creating true mage groups across the world (Which is really what has probably held the Seer's Guild and IOND back) as well as group initiating to ridiculous heights.
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ZeroPoint
post May 4 2010, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (jimbo @ May 3 2010, 06:26 PM) *
I specifically addressed this in the OP. Seriously.


In a lot of magical traditions (I'm not talking just shadowrun versions but the real life traditions that they are based off of), Magical circles were always organized to be a specific number and carry a specific symbolism. Your joining cell is also treated as a second family so the number is kept small. So in the event that a local group has 30 members, it would be broken up into 5 cells of 6 memebers (if 6 is their number of choice) or 4 groups of 7, and the remaining 2 would be attached to other groups but alternate in participating with any act that requires a Circle, such as a joining ritual. Thus, if your player was trying to join a group with 52 members in Seattle, and they are broken into Cells of 9, then he would be one of the odd men out. So when he participates in the joining ritual, he joins an existing full circle of 9. One of the members may step out to maintain the number of 9, or he will stay since I would assume the circle and the joining member perform different roles during the ritual so you would have the 9 existing members performing the ritual, and the initiate joining in.

At least that would be my take on it and a good way to keep that number from getting out of hand
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Ol' Scratch
post May 4 2010, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Hagga @ May 4 2010, 06:08 AM) *
Stops people from creating true mage groups across the world (Which is really what has probably held the Seer's Guild and IOND back) as well as group initiating to ridiculous heights.

The GM limiting how much karma is earned does the job of the former (as does the cost of raising Magic and everything else associated with initiation, and assuming this has jack-all to do with joining a group anyway), and the former could have been handled with something as simple as "individual groups or cells of groups cannot exceed 10/15/20/25/whatever members."

As it is now, it's simply a Karma penalty if you didn't bother to get a really high Logic and Arcana skill, and an even bigger penalty if you decided to add some spice to your character by taking geasa (-3 dice per geas). Overly and unnecessarily harsh with no gain outside of stealing Karma from players, and it does little to nothing to add... well, anything... to the game.
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Karoline
post May 4 2010, 05:37 PM
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I thought the karma wasn't paid until -after- you'd made your test to get into the group.

Oh, guess not. Hmm, also seems weird that you need a net hit as opposed to simply meeting the threshold. I figure you can adjust it from needing a net hit to simply meeting the threshold, which makes it notably easier. I also see no reason that you should be getting the benefits of a teamwork test, which should net at least an extra hit or two worth of dice. Combine the two and it means nearly anyone should be able to join a group with about 10 members or so, and it might take a bit of luck (edge) to join a bigger group. A spent point of edge for rerolls should allow for sealing the deal fairly easily.

This is after all a once in a lifetime roll, I see no reason a person wouldn't burn a point of edge on it, maybe even two, one for the initial roll for the extra dice and exploding sixes, and if needed another for the rerolls.
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Hagga
post May 4 2010, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 4 2010, 03:22 PM) *
The GM limiting how much karma is earned does the job of the former (as does the cost of raising Magic and everything else associated with initiation, and assuming this has jack-all to do with joining a group anyway), and the former could have been handled with something as simple as "individual groups or cells of groups cannot exceed 10/15/20/25/whatever members."

As it is now, it's simply a Karma penalty if you didn't bother to get a really high Logic and Arcana skill, and an even bigger penalty if you decided to add some spice to your character by taking geasa (-3 dice per geas). Overly and unnecessarily harsh with no gain outside of stealing Karma from players, and it does little to nothing to add... well, anything... to the game.

Like I said, fluff perspective. I don't let my players group initiate at all anymore, but our games definately are more Exalted: Shadowrun than Shadowrun: Black Trench Coats, cheap sunglasses and bad hair cuts. They wanted to play that way, so that's the way they play. Did you know Lofwyr makes a personal appearance whenever the players do something really stupid over a middling period? It only takes one "You turn the corner, and Lofwyr is standing there. He begins to cover you in tomato sauce and pepper, and is wearing an apron that says "Kiss the cook"" to stop them being stupid and pulling out bullshit reasoning for their stupidity.
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Muspellsheimr
post May 4 2010, 11:18 PM
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@Teamwork Test:

Yes, you can indeed use Teamwork on the Arcana test to join a magical group.
Yes, this follows the normal Teamwork rules.
No, you cannot gain additional dice in excess of your Skill Rating.

Teamwork is utterly useless unless the character already possesses a reasonable Arcana skill.


Yes, the rules for joining a magical group are fucking retarded. I suggest ignoring them. While I like the idea behind the rules, I have not yet bothered to find a way to make them actually work.
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Banaticus
post May 5 2010, 02:55 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ May 4 2010, 09:37 AM) *
This is after all a once in a lifetime roll, I see no reason a person wouldn't burn a point of edge on it, maybe even two, one for the initial roll for the extra dice and exploding sixes, and if needed another for the rerolls.

I agree, but you can only spend a single point of edge on a roll, so you can't get both exploding 6's and rerolls.
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Karoline
post May 5 2010, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 4 2010, 10:55 PM) *
I agree, but you can only spend a single point of edge on a roll, so you can't get both exploding 6's and rerolls.


Oh, right, forgot about that. Well, run the odds and see which is better to do and then do that one.
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Draco18s
post May 5 2010, 03:20 AM
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Holy crabcakes batman, this doesn't sound right, but I looked it up.

QUOTE (SM p69)
...Finally, the character must spend 5 Karma.
...
The magical group must then perform a ritual that bonds
the applicant with the group. During the ritual the applicant
must make an Arcana + Logic Success Test to bond with the
group. The test has a threshold of 1 (+1 for every five members
in the group)
...
If the character is already an initiate, she may add
her initiate grade to the dice pool. Most magical groups frown
upon applicants too dependent on geasa or suffering from focus
addiction. Both are seen as signs of weakness and inability
to control one’s Talent. Characters with either Negative quality
apply a –3 modifier to the dice pool.
A single net hit is enough to form the bond and admit
the character to the group. If the test fails, the group cannot
accept the applicant at the moment, and she may try again *
one month. If this second attempt fails, the group is simply
unable to admit the character.


*Hey! A word is missing here!
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Demon_Bob
post May 5 2010, 04:31 AM
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and without using any optional rules shamans without arcana basically have no chance of joining a lodge.
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FriendoftheDork
post May 5 2010, 06:25 AM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ May 5 2010, 05:31 AM) *
and without using any optional rules shamans without arcana basically have no chance of joining a lodge.


A possible fix could be to use an appropriate magic knowledge skill (Magic Background, Magic Theory, Stupid Dancing and Chanting, etc), in lieu of Arcana as an option. Should also make it much cheaper to get into a group in the first place.
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Jaid
post May 5 2010, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ May 5 2010, 02:25 AM) *
A possible fix could be to use an appropriate magic knowledge skill (Magic Background, Magic Theory, Stupid Dancing and Chanting, etc), in lieu of Arcana as an option. Should also make it much cheaper to get into a group in the first place.

except that arcana is a perfectly reasonable and appropriate skill for a shaman. the fact that the shaman is creating a mask or carving something out of wood instead of writing complex mathemagical formulae into a book is irrelevant. it still uses arcana, which is essentially the skill dealing with applied magical knowledge in your tradition.
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Dakka Dakka
post May 5 2010, 07:25 AM
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Also the thresholds aren't that bad. To succeed on a Threshold Test, you only need to meet the threshold. You need ZERO net hits.

I agree that Arcana is a good skill for any magician, not just Hermetics. The Shaman should know which dance to perform when, the Houngan should know which Loa represents which Aspect, the Black Mage should no a few names of "Demons" etc.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 5 2010, 07:36 AM
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Those are all things covered by Knowledge Skills. Arcana is about creating spell and spirit formulae, and (only recently) for doing things like summoning free spirits.

Additionally, no test should require the use of Edge just to give you a shot at not wasting Karma. That's just incredibly lame in and of itself. And God forbid you want to play a more traditional magician who chants and uses hand gestures to cast his spells; he's at -6 dice just for wanting to be unique and interesting. Heaven help you if you have any other geas or an addiction to foci. And the rationalze for that, alone, is beyond stupid. "Some groups don't like it, so ALL groups don't like it. Sucks to be you, asshole."

It's a wretched rule no matter how you try to spin or rationalize it, and it serves no useful function whatsoever. Being in a group has its own drawbacks. Spending Karma has its own drawbacks. An extra roll that doesn't add a single thing to the game and exists solely to try and steal Karma for players for no good reason is just flat-out retarded.
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Jaid
post May 5 2010, 09:32 AM
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it could just as easily be: some groups don't like people with focus addiction or geasa, *because* those people are harder to bring into an initiatory group.

arcana is the skill to use. it is applied knowledge in mathematics. magic knowledge would let you know roughly what sorts of things are possible. arcana will tell you how your particular tradition accomplishes that goal. magic knowledge may let you know that rituals are performed to bring someone into an initiatory group, but arcana tells you specifically how to perform a ritual in your tradition to bring someone into an initiatory group.

and the rule serves the purpose of keeping initiatory groups small, rather than being a massive group. a small group (less than 5) has a threshold of 1. (which, due to weirdness in the rules for joining a group, becomes a threshold of 2). that's 3 skill and 3 attribute to have a reasonable chance of success. even a person with an attribute of 1 and a skill of 3 can have a reasonable chance for success over 2 attempts. (the odds of getting 2 hits on 4 dice are not amazing, by any means, but it is well within the realm of possibility, especially if you let the person make 2 attempts... much better if the person spends edge, even, and if you can get 3 bonus dice from teamwork -- again, very reasonable even from a small group of 2 or 3 -- it gets even more likely).

it serves the purpose of making arcana a useful skill for just about anyone to take, which means people are quite likely to take a skill that really should be standard for magicians, and furthermore makes them more likely to try to find other uses for the skill. like developing their own spells, designing their own foci, etc.

i can see an argument for moving the karma payment to after the ritual succeeds (or in having the person pay once, and then be able to attempt to join different groups until they succeed in joining a group), but really, it isn't just a way to suck karma out of the character. it comes with actual benefits, not least of which is lower karma costs on initiation, but also including essentially a group contact of people to exchange magical knowledge and services with. and possibly more, depending on the group you join.
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