Shadowrun featured in Game Trade Magazine cover story, Another news post by Hardy? What the hell? Options

[shadd4d]

While I'm glad to find out about the new products, I thought the title was misleading, given a lack of comparison with past troughs. You could have punched at more of the selling points of Shadowrun, I think, like perhaps expanding upon the system fixes or character creation and campaign freedom.

[Prime Mover]

GREAT ART
Thanks much for the preview!

[Sengir]

I don't completely dislike the cover - it's massively better than Augmentation for a start. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

At least the German version got a new cover which is 95 gazillion times better. Unfortunately, showing nipples even in a non-sexualized context is completely off limits across the pond, while a pose which just screams "TITS" in your face but has all the essentials covered is acceptable, so...

[Ancient History]

That being said, I'd be interested in your take on the article. Especially since I now wonder in what way JM Hardy's personal opinion might color future releases (esp. the 6th World Almanach).

It's an advert, which is fair enough. It's a bad advert because it starts out by telling fans why to hate the product. It boils the blood a little to read it because most of the people that wrote those books their pimping have left Catalyst, but that's on the personal side. The way the article is trying to spin SR4A as a "new" product at this point is misleading, and there are several other really bizarre and cringeworthy terms thrown in there ("magic cyberpunk noir," "warrior of the streets," "piles of binary data") and a distinctive lack of actual Shadowrun terminology (street samurai, riggers, metahumans, etc.). The description of the Sixth World Almanac is a blatant lie (I could go on and on about the decisions regarding that one, but "depth" is not a word I would use for the information offered). The last I heard Phaedra had been sitting on her first draft of her novel for months and months now because she hasn't been paid yet.

Jason is weirdly obsessed with the whole Facebook thing. Yes, it's a wonderful way to promote the game, I get that, but he seriously talks about getting X number of fans to join the group like it's a some kind of personal achievement as line developer. Sorry, getting slightly off topic here.

The Seattle 2072 blurb is fine, though I might have killed the second paragraph (one missed period isn't the end of the world).

Dev Cmts - I worked on the book too, and I could tell you stories about that map. Jason probably was excited about the book, but...I don't want to go there. There's still some bad blood over 6WA. Hey, look, another Facebook reference.

[MJBurrage]

With respect to "magic cyberpunk noir" as a description for Shadowrun – "Cyberpunk noir" has been a description for Blade Runner since the film came out. "Blade Runner with Magic" has been a description for Shadowrun since the game came out. So while "magic cyberpunk noir" may not be the best description, it certainly has history and validity.

[Mesh]

It's an advert, which is fair enough. It's a bad advert because it starts out by telling fans why to hate the product. It boils the blood a little to read it because most of the people that wrote those books their pimping have left Catalyst, but that's on the personal side. The way the article is trying to spin SR4A as a "new" product at this point is misleading, and there are several other really bizarre and cringeworthy terms thrown in there ("magic cyberpunk noir," "warrior of the streets," "piles of binary data") and a distinctive lack of actual Shadowrun terminology (street samurai, riggers, metahumans, etc.). The description of the Sixth World Almanac is a blatant lie (I could go on and on about the decisions regarding that one, but "depth" is not a word I would use for the information offered). The last I heard Phaedra had been sitting on her first draft of her novel for months and months now because she hasn't been paid yet.

Jason is weirdly obsessed with the whole Facebook thing. Yes, it's a wonderful way to promote the game, I get that, but he seriously talks about getting X number of fans to join the group like it's a some kind of personal achievement as line developer. Sorry, getting slightly off topic here.

The Seattle 2072 blurb is fine, though I might have killed the second paragraph (one missed period isn't the end of the world).

Dev Cmts - I worked on the book too, and I could tell you stories about that map. Jason probably was excited about the book, but...I don't want to go there. There's still some bad blood over 6WA. Hey, look, another Facebook reference.

Why don't you write it better?

Mesh

[Ancient History]

Not my job.

[knasser]

Why don't you write it better?

Mesh

Possibly you're going for funny. But given the circumstances of how AH's work is currently being hurriedly re-written without him, that could be taken as a bit pointed. On the Internet, it's hard to tell which you're going for.

K.

[Bull]

No offense to Knasser, but cyberpunk has always been Shadowruns default description. And always will be. It's the basis of the original game, and still the basis of how many of us play and view the game.

And AH: Jason isn't the first dev to describe Shadowrun as Noir. When I interviewed Mike Mulvihill for the Shadowrun Supplemental ages and ages ago, that's a word he used as well.

Bull

[Ancient History]

Still think it's silly.

Seriously, most of my anger about this article is just the context of events surrounding it, rather than the content itself.

[otakusensei]

No offense to Knasser, but cyberpunk has always been Shadowruns default description. And always will be. It's the basis of the original game, and still the basis of how many of us play and view the game.

I agree with both of you. When I think of cyberpunk I generally think of Shadowrun and Neuromancer. Parts of Shadowrun selectively, of course. And when I mention "cyberpunk" I'm sure I'm not using the wikipedia description simply because I've been too close to the SR reactor core for too long and the concept has mutated for me.

I can see how that would color someone coming to the game fresh though. I have also seen people have the same reaction William Gibson did, spoon and all. The art goes a long way to framing the game for people so you don't end up with Gandalf and Neo both pissed off because the game isn't what they expected. But anyone would be hard pressed to find three words that pulled it off.

That said, I disagree with "noir" and would substitute "intrigue" personally. But to be honest, before I did that I would throw the tag line out and start over.

[Sengir]

Jason is weirdly obsessed with the whole Facebook thing. Yes, it's a wonderful way to promote the game, I get that, but he seriously talks about getting X number of fans to join the group like it's a some kind of personal achievement as line developer.

Nah, that's just the current hype among game companies (and a lot of other corps - even serious news sites think that something somebody writes on Twitter qualifies as news these days). But at least Wizard's Gleemax disaster has made sure they only do it on existing social networks and not try to astroturf their own ones.

Sorry, getting slightly off topic here.

This is dumpshock...

[Ol' Scratch]

Despite a certain poster's irrational claims to the contrary, 'noir' fits the game perfectly well.

"Typically American crime dramas or psychological thrillers, films noir had a number of common themes and plot devices, and many distinctive visual elements. Characters were often conflicted antiheroes, trapped in a difficult situation and making choices out of desperation or nihilistic moral systems. Visual elements included low-key lighting, striking use of light and shadow, and unusual camera placement."

"Modern themes employed in neo-noir films include identity crises, memory issues and subjectivity, and - most importantly - technological problems and their social ramifications."

"noir, adj. Of or relating to a genre of crime literature featuring tough, cynical characters and bleak settings."

Yeah, I don't see how any of those relate to Shadowrun at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

As for spinning the game and using more conventional terms instead of niche-terms that only people familiar with the game would know... duh! That's the point of advertising, which is what articles like this are all about. Why in God's name would you confuse people by calling an archetype a Rigger or Street Samurai when they have no bloody idea what a Rigger or a Street Samurai is? Good God.

[Ancient History]

Because it gives the wrong picture of the game, and does nothing to reflect the actual setting. From the current write-up, seriously, read this paragraph:

Shadowrun has long been valued for the total freedom it offers players in creating characters. With several races, attributes, and skills to choose from, players can customize their character to suit their vision. They might want to be a sword-slinging, sharp-shooting warrior of the streets, or perhaps they’d rather command a small army of spirits to do their bidding, or maybe they want to master the Matrix and get access to the secrets buried under piles of binary data. Whatever they imagine, they can be.

You could literally replace Shadowrun with Urban Arcana in that paragraph. There's nothing distinct about the game or its real selling point, the setting, which is what differentiates it from every other game that combines a bit of magic with a bit of tech. Unusual and evocative names draw people into the game and whet their appetites - or maybe I'm the only one that was suckered in by the idea of being a Street Samurai or Former Wage Mage.

Re: Noir -> It's difficult to do a proper noir-based game, and SR just doesn't actively pursue that aesthetic. There's a large deal of overlap in the source material (Cyberpunk authors consciously drew on noir), and various homages and inclusions (Goblin Detective, "Think Bambra, think!"), but there's a larger influence from the later punk aesthetic. I don't think it's an accurate term for the game as a whole...and yeah, I think "magic cyberpunk noir" sounds retarded.

[Dread Moores]

With respect to "magic cyberpunk noir" as a description for Shadowrun – "Cyberpunk noir" has been a description for Blade Runner since the film came out. "Blade Runner with Magic" has been a description for Shadowrun since the game came out. So while "magic cyberpunk noir" may not be the best description, it certainly has history and validity.

Agreed.

and yeah, I think "magic cyberpunk noir" sounds retarded.

And also agreed.

Then again, there's a lot of things I find in both of my favorite games (SR and BT) that I think are slightly errr...silly. I'll go for the slightly more friendly silly. I'm actually not much of a fan of the actual neo-A cyberpunk overemphasis of prior editions, much like I'm not so much of a fan of the often-misinterpreted relevance of the Mad Max/fighting over water bit of early BT (or the confusion amongst the fanbase of those who confuse that style, which is totally Third Succession War, with the 3025 era).

But as silly as the term may sound, it is an accurate, if oversimplified description of SR. I think it might have been better served to not have been oversimplified quite that much, though.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What I really liked about SR4A: Art direction.

[hermit]

But as silly as the term may sound, it is an accurate, if oversimplified description of SR. I think it might have been better served to not have been oversimplified quite that much, though.

True, but considering it's an advert, what else should we expect?

I can understand that what went on behind the scenes rubs Ancient the wrong way, and obviously there is serious bad blood. I don't profess to know much about that and won't take sides, but I also scratched my head about the depth part (which runs counter to the very concept of the Almanac). Overall, though, as a bit of drumming up interest in Shadowrun, show the game is still around, and advertise upcoming and recent releases, it looks okay to me, speaking from a purely outsider perspective.

What I really liked about SR4A: Art direction.

This needs emphasis and quotation.

[The_Vanguard]

AH, thanks for your reply. Too bad that it confirms some of my fears.

What I liked best about Rob Boyle's SR4 (besides his great grasp of futuristic concepts) was that it managed to cater to all play styles - it encompassed Pink Mohawk just as well as Black Cyberpunk or Hi-Tech Thriller. IMHO SR had always been at its weakest when the style could be defined in simple terms.
The article is full of definitions I don't feel really comfortable with. Of course, some are certainly exaggerations for the sake of advertisement, but the fokus seems...limited to me. Well, let's see how things evolve from here.

[Tanegar]

I don't completely dislike the cover - it's massively better than Augmentation for a start. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I quite like the Augmentation cover, except for the fact that the artist apparently thinks orks = Uruk-hai.

[hermit]

I quite like the Augmentation cover, except for the fact that the artist apparently thinks orks = Uruk-hai.

The Orks there are a Poser model orc intended for a fantasy setting, so yes, they are supposed to look like Uruk-Hai.

[JM Hardy]

In the interest of establishing clarity and getting my actual opinions out there, rather than guesses at or interpretations of my opinions, here's an excerpt from an interview Bull did with me for the first issue of Dumpshock Data Haven.

Bull: You mentioned in the blog introduction you wrote for shadowrun4.com and on Dumpshock that you view Shadowrun as "Magic Cyberpunk Noir". Can you explain or expand on that at all?

JMH: I like that phrase because it captures three things I really enjoy. I love fantasy, I've been reading fantasy for decades, and anytime there's fantasy around I'm much happier than when it's not. I also love cyberpunk and the way it kind of blasted a hole in the '50s image of science-as-progress, where the future keeps getting cleaner and better and all that. Cyberpunk says that technology can only make the world as good as we are, and that we're pretty screwed up. I'm actually more optimistic than that, but I like a good clean breath of cynicism every now and again.

The noir captures the fatalism in Shadowrun, and the view that the world is stacked against you, which is the classic noir point of view. But noir also has this fantastic energy, the fast-paced, deadpan patter, that I've loved. My computer desktop is a movie poster of The Big Sleep, because I love how people in that movie talk. So you throw magic's wildness in with cyberpunk's raw energy and noir's fatalism and wit, and you have an unbeatable combo.

Fedoras and trench coats abound in SR just as they do in noir--and I love it!

Bull: Ok, that said, Magic Cyberpunk Noir... The question then is, Blue Mohawks or Black Leather Professionals, as the kids like to compare styles these days?

JMH: Why choose? I'm in favor of both--it's a big world out there. And people can wear black leather and have a blue mohawk, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not a big fan of the "Here's the right way to play Shadowrun" arguments.

Jason H.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In the interest of establishing clarity and getting my actual opinions out there, rather than guesses at or interpretations of my opinions, here's an excerpt from an interview Bull did with me for the first issue of Dumpshock Data Haven.

Jason H.

Makes Sense...

Keep the Faith

[tweak]

That cover art is so HOT. We need more cover art like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

So DDH is coming around?

[hobgoblin]

heck, with synthair, a runner can go day-glo mohawk one moment, corp gray the next.

and trench-coats works wonders for hiding firepower on the way to a run.

a courier drone buzzing by and a thunderbird in the sky with acid rain falling and things get interesting.