Shadowrun featured in Game Trade Magazine cover story, Another news post by Hardy? What the hell? Options

[hermit]

On the criminal side of things, fake SINS are cheap.

One of SR4's more glring design faults. Can easily be fixed by making them go to 12 and the 6-12 range be a lot more expensive. Rating 10 to 12 would also actually be realistically be viable for more thana few lucky tests according to SIN check rules.

Governments are once again stable and a power.

Shadowrun never was CP2020. Also, governments in SR are a spowerful as real-world governments. That's depressingly powerless.

Almost everything that makes Cyberpunk and a Dystopia has been slowly stripped away. And with it, the primary reason to be a Shadowrunner.

I think companies like Blackwater (or thatever their current name is ... Rho Technologies, was it?) disagree with you about there being a need for dismissable assets in such a world.

Ultimatly, shadowrunners are mercenary agents. It's not like this concept won't work in a less dreary, misunderstood gibsonian type of world. The whole stick-it-to-the-man-by-working-for-them-because-my-life-sucks never made any sense in the first place.

And myself, I play shadowrun for the urban magic angle. It'S combination of near future scifi (which i always have been a sucker for) and high magic is both absurd and strangely working. I see shadowrunners, as mentioned above, as part of the system, not some raging anti system non conformists who somehow work with the system by rejecting it.

[Demonseed Elite]

Well, I do stand on some common ground with Bull in that in order for shadowrunners to make sense, a sharp divide between the Haves and the Have-Nots needs to still exist and it should probably be sharper than the real world we live in. So while I think Shadowrun's development over time has led to a less cyberpunk attitude towards technology, I think economic disparity needs to remain dystopian. I'm still unconvinced that national governments wield considerable power in Shadowrun, even with the increased attention they've gotten lately. The true power is still in the hands of the megacorps, who still do not care about a segment of the population (the SINless) beyond those of them they can use as disposable, deniable assets.

And I still think it's possible to have a more optimistic view about technology and still have a depressing economic disparity. Our own world today is an unfortunate example of that: all the iPhones and Facebook users in the world aren't helping us out of a sad global economic mess of our own creation. If anything, the economic situation was made worse not by the dehumanizing technology, but by very human greed, selfishness, and instant gratification.

[RunnerPaul]

Instead of relying on economic disparity, one could turn to an ideological one. Only the highest tiers of the corporate power structure have any true freedom in what they want to do with their lives, the rest only have the illusion of choice. Shadowrunners are the ones who step outside of the system in search of regaining that freedom.

[FlakJacket]

In regards to the covers how much art direction versus a free hand does the artist get? Curious since I know next to nothing about the process.

[Cardul]

Someone made a point about the Caution Tape Girl looking like a media mock-up of what a Shadowrunner
should be, and would not buy a book because the cover looks like it is trying to say "Buy it! It has boobs!"
I am wondering though, what if the book is such that having a Media-spun-up cover is actually appropriate for
it?

(Then again, I think I am one of the few people who actually liked the American cover of Arsenal)

As for Bull's assertion that the SR4A setting has no reason to be a shadowrunner, I disgree there. It is just you
have to think outside the modern world. I still believe in the Robin Hood view of Shadowrunners. I still look
at things from a different angle, as well. Where bull sees Fake SINs as being easy to acquire, I see them as
inexpensive to get, but what about the long term cost WHEN you get caught having a fake SIN? You are still
going to go to a Prison...and read the descriptions in Seattle 2072...you think ANYONE wants to go near any of
those places? And remember, no SIN means you might not even GET to a trial. Shadowrunning might be dangerous,
deadly, and violent, but a)it is pretty much no more dangerous then life in the Barrens and b) it is far more
lucrative then what a legitimate job can be. And, to get up from the bottom, you need money...

[hermit]

And remember, no SIN means you might not even GET to a trial.

Of course you will. And a brand new criminal SIN on top of it!

but a)it is pretty much no more dangerous then life in the Barrens and b) it is far more
lucrative then what a legitimate job can be.

Not with the bullshit payment rules SR4 has, it's not. SR4 wanted runners to be true, meaning impoverished, underpaid, and oh so radical. It overlooked that, using the standards it ser for sale of items and the ludicrous hacking possibilities, a life of car theft is far more lucrative than being a shadowrunner (and far less lethal).

[Cardul]

Not with the bullshit payment rules SR4 has, it's not. SR4 wanted runners to be true, meaning impoverished, underpaid, and oh so radical. It overlooked that, using the standards it ser for sale of items and the ludicrous hacking possibilities, a life of car theft is far more lucrative than being a shadowrunner (and far less lethal).

See...I keep hearing this mentioned, but have never been able to find the rules people mention, in either SR4
or SR4A. Then again, I understand that the foreign editions have somethings that get changed or added, so
it might not be there...

I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin
retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?(Remember: it is not a Shadowrun until the Johnson tries to kill
you!)

[Fuchs]

At it's core, and this is a Cyberpunk dystopian staple, is that there basically existed three classes of people. The "Haves" (The slim minority of people that are rich, powerful, and run corporations or crime organizations or whatever). The "Have Nots" (The Wage Slaves who are crushed into a mindless existence because they're controlled by the Haves in every way). And the "Never Hads" (The SINless. Squatters. The people outside the system who don't exist and get nothing because of it). Shadowrunners were generally either "Have Nots" that couldn't bear to be part of the mindless grind, or "Never Hads" who were trying to rise above it. THe indivdual reasons varied, but generally it came down to that simple concept... Trying to be something else.

This divide has largely evaporated. Cyberware and Bio is cheap. Travel is cheap. On the criminal side of things, fake SINS are cheap. There's no longer a need for people to be Shadowrunners to make a life for themselves. The Corps don't control everything. Governments are once again stable and a power. Almost everything that makes Cyberpunk and a Dystopia has been slowly stripped away. And with it, the primary reason to be a Shadowrunner.

Unless you're mentally unstable. That's all that's logically left to be a shadowrunner. There's no reason to be one if you have any kind of stable mindset, because you can easily enough buy a "normal life". You don't have to "fight the man/corp" because there's no other option. After a couple runs, you can buy necessary cyberware to go back to living a normal life. YOu can buy a fake SIN and probably live a normal existance.

Those who want to fight "the man" or the system and use violence are usually called terrorists. Leftists in the case of the RAF and the likes, mostly islamists these days. The 80s Shadowrunners you talk about were just that, terrorists, with an anarchists or eco-fundamentalist ideology. And of course they would depict the non-violent law-abiding people as downtrodden sheep.

But tyou are wrong. Even in SR1 Shadowrunners were depicted as deniable assets, professionals, mercenaries. Not as terrorists working for their ideology.

And that hasn't changed in SR4. Shadowrunners are still professional criminals. Who do high-risk jobs for large amounts of money. Or to rise in their organized crime syndicate of choice. But not to simply be different.

[hermit]

I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?

Been in every edition sicne the 2nd. Been largely ignored by official publications till Missions 4.0, though, so nobody reallythought about it.

Still, why be a runner if hacking westwinds with your minimum wage SuperHAXXXX commlink of all-6 stats nets you easiy three times the income AND doesn't have Johnsons shoot you? The point being, minimum wage always doublecrossed runners won't work, in either edition. The shadows need some level of proffessionality, or Johnson will have a hard time finding people to do his dirty work if he tries to kill them (and not live very long either).

Shadowrunners work well as freelance agents or spy mercenaries, in any edition again.

[Fuchs]

See...I keep hearing this mentioned, but have never been able to find the rules people mention, in either SR4
or SR4A. Then again, I understand that the foreign editions have somethings that get changed or added, so
it might not be there...

I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin
retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?(Remember: it is not a Shadowrun until the Johnson tries to kill
you!)

The rules for fencing loot.

[Demonseed Elite]

Instead of relying on economic disparity, one could turn to an ideological one. Only the highest tiers of the corporate power structure have any true freedom in what they want to do with their lives, the rest only have the illusion of choice. Shadowrunners are the ones who step outside of the system in search of regaining that freedom.

I think an ideological motivation should always be there, but it shouldn't be the only one. Not all shadowrunners are fighting the good fight, some are just in a shitty situation and see shadowrunning as their way out.

[Adam]

Here's the thing. SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise. It's simply based on a fantasy concept, not real life, not anything else.

I did a lot of laundry yesterday, so I have plenty of needed room to roll around on my floor laughing.

[augmentin]

@ Caution Tape Girl: Tom Dowd said it best

@ everything Khadim's said in this thread: completely and totally agree.

@ reasons for Shadowrunning: you're assuming that it's an optimized decision making process. If anything, the decision to run the shadows would be one of satisficing (see "The Science of Muddling Through").

Further, there's the sociological aspect. If all the coolest Trids are Gone in 60 Seconds the world is going to have a lot of cyber/mystic Grand Theft Auto-ing going on. If all the coolest Triads are Karl Combat Mage, the world is going to see a lot of shadowrunners. In other words, I was grunt. Being an infantryman is not a military career path that lends itself to post-military success in life. But, I played with G.I. Joes a lot as a kid, played Shadowrun as a teenager, and watch a lot of Peacemaker and True Lies as a young adult. Thus, when I joined the service, there was a strong desire to do the things I dreamed about all my life.

Finally, in a universe as complex and diverse as SR4 the game should provide the PCs with many, many reasons to run the shadows, or not to run the shadows. The game is big enough the PCs can choose to work as mercenaries, doc wagon, or a start up security firm. The point is, the shadowrun world is huge and rich. (Well, unless your a native-american, then you've been almost completely forgotten since SR2.../end mini-rant.) Your PC could choose to run the shadows for any and all of the reasons discussed in this thread and many more...

[knasser]

Someone made a point about the Caution Tape Girl looking like a media mock-up of what a Shadowrunner
should be, and would not buy a book because the cover looks like it is trying to say "Buy it! It has boobs!"

Just to clarify (because I'm the "someone" you refer to), I don't class this book as "wont buy because of the cover". It's not nearly that bad. The artwork is quite well done for a start. But it's definitely a misjudgement as far as I'm concerned. Oddly enough, the cover of the very first Shadowrun book ever had a considerably less clothed woman on the cover but I still find that used less as a selling point than the magazine cover. Anyway, lets not take these to extremes. It's a piece of artwork I find a little false. It's not so bad it would stop me buying the book.

Well, I do stand on some common ground with Bull in that in order for shadowrunners to make sense, a sharp divide between the Haves and the Have-Nots needs to still exist and it should probably be sharper than the real world we live in. So while I think Shadowrun's development over time has led to a less cyberpunk attitude towards technology, I think economic disparity needs to remain dystopian.

I agree with the sharp economic divide. But that concept is not owned by the cyberpunk genre. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In fact, I think it's better without the loaded value system of that specific genre to define that divide. We're all a lot wiser than we were twenty years ago. I think people picking up the game for the first time now are generally wiser than most people were at that age twenty years ago. And that means we need shades of grey and gradiation. It can't be a lot of cool outcasts sticking it to the Man, because I think most of us don't want to be rebellious outsiders. And RPGs, generally, are about being who you want to be.

K.

[Cardul]

The rules for fencing loot.

Wait, so you have to determine the value of the loot for a run to determine the
pay the Johnson is giving for retrieving the McGuffin? That seems kind of silly.

I mean, you are saying that is determining how much money the Johnson pays, since
you are saying those rules make it more profitable to steal cars then run in the shadows.
I do not buy that one bit, myself. Short term, sure...long term, though, you are going to
be getting bigger pay for runs then for stealing a car.

[Stahlseele]

Let's say you get 10k for one run, let's say you have one run per week(ridiculous in my eyes)
Let's say you get 1k for a car. you can steal and sell at least one car per day. so at least 7k per week.
Without much risk only 7k less and a medium lifestyle is at 5k or so per MONTH.
And you more or less have a regular income too . .

[Cardul]

Let's say you get 10k for one run, let's say you have one run per week(ridiculous in my eyes)
Let's say you get 1k for a car. you can steal and sell at least one car per day. so at least 7k per week.
Without much risk only 7k less and a medium lifestyle is at 5k or so per MONTH.
And you more or less have a regular income too . .

And where are you getting that 10K for one run from? Honestly, I have always used a more
"Take the Karma the Run is going to make, multiply it by 10K. Multiply that by 5, then divide
among the team." This means that a Run should always make at least 20K per Runner for
a 5 man team(a little more for a 4 man team, a little less for a 6 man team). Because,
of course, you get 1 Karma for completeing the objective, and 1 Karma for just showing up,
on the most basic of runs. This also provides a way for players to know when the pay is enough
that the Johnson is not telling them everything(which a good Runner should know). Of course,
I also provide extras based on things like "The run must be done in X hours, or at X time."
Player Negotiations can, of course, get it above the base price..but the "Up front pay" is
usually fixed.

[hermit]

That is far above the payment suggested by SR4, and considering the cheapnes sof gear, far beyond what makes sense to not have mundanes (hackers especially) instantly hitting the all-6 glass ceiling of upgradability.

And still. A team has how many runs per month? One? Two? Assuming four, that'S 80K.

Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable. A W3K is worth 150K. If you negotiate shit, you get 15K for the car. Make that 3K because the mob takes it's share. You still make 3K a day, which, in 30 days, means 90K per month for a low-risk job.

All you need to do is be a hacker and complete one of your runs for a fabulous all-6 commlink. The car's device level 2 security measures will cease to exist for you, and you will have absolutly no reason to ever go on another shadowrun unless that somehow turns you on or something.

[Kid Chameleon]

Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable. A W3K is worth 150K.

How many Westwinds do you think are out there? You think you could steal a Ferrari a day in 2010?

[Blade]

Oh, it's "runners stealing Westwind" time again?
This whole discussion is pretty pointless. I admit that it's important to have an answer to the question "why do we run instead of stealing Westwinds?" for your group, but it's pointless to try to get people with different playstyles to agree on one answer.

One the top of my head, here are answers that could be valid in different games:
- "Because Shadowrunning pays more."
- "Because Shadowrunning will eventually lead to run payed more."
- "Because you only run the Shadows once every three months while you need to steal Westwind every x days."
- "Because the car-stealing racket is held by the [insert group name]. If you steal a Westwind for them you'll only get a small share and if you try to do without them you won't live long."
- "Because you won't stick it to the man by stealing his car."
- "Because it's so difficult/expensive to 'clean' a stolen car that it just isn't worth it."
- "Because there aren't any Westwind here!"
- "Because Lofwyr has one... and you don't want to be the one who stole it."

[CeeJay]

Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable...

Well, first of all, you have to actually find that many high-value cars. It's not that Ferraris or Porsches are all over the town in 2010, so I'm quite sure, that Westwinds and the like are quite rare in 2070. After all, such cars are bought as status symbols, so where is the point when everybody owes one... And by the way, people who can afford to pay 100 k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a car don't park that car at the street, which brings me to the second point:

You still make 3K a day, which, in 30 days, means 90K per month for a low-risk job.

Stealing high value cars from their high-lifestyle owners is not a low-risk job in my book. Such people tend to watch after their property and they usually can afford top-notch security.

-CJ

[hermit]

- "Because Shadowrunning pays more."
- "Because Shadowrunning will eventually lead to run payed more."
- "Because you only run the Shadows once every three months while you need to steal Westwind every x days."
- "Because the car-stealing racket is held by the [insert group name]. If you steal a Westwind for them you'll only get a small share and if you try to do without them you won't live long."
- "Because you won't stick it to the man by stealing his car."
- "Because it's so difficult/expensive to 'clean' a stolen car that it just isn't worth it."
- "Because there aren't any Westwind here!"
- "Because Lofwyr has one... and you don't want to be the one who stole it."

- No, it just doesn't.
- Like when you're dead?
- I already factored that into my calculation.
- LOL. Yeah. Better stick it to the man by doing his dirty work. You're so radical (and actually, lighting the man's car on fire is a staple in leftist moron circles these days).
- Nope, see fencing rules
- Take cheaper family ccars, sell more of them.
- Because ... he needs an expensive car. Right.

None of these points make much sense, sorry. There certainly are workarounds - making runs pay a lot more, and raising equipment costs for augmentations and matrixware, adding in matrixware up to level 12 (as well as corp nodes up to level 12, of course) ... but all those require significant houseruling.

However, you can also get by jacking shops, robbing peoples' bank accounts, or stealing whatever else (other cars, for instance. Also, unlike what many believe, the amount of expensive cars - absolute and relative - rises with growing social divides.

But you needn't limit yourself to Westwinds. You have a high-end hacking package, and unless your group plays by optional rules, you need no skill at all for most of the hacking either! YYou can just walk in anywhere and take anything you like! Why risk your hide trying to break into a high security environemnt when you can just pluck ripe fruits in the mall daily? It's not like their pesky security has anything on your and your uberlink for roughly 15K. One run, is all you ever need.

With the not really thought out changes in payment for runs, low max levels of everything that is not a 'mancer, and equipment cost, SR4 killed any reason to be a runner. Unless you happen to be a technomancer, maybe.

[fistandantilus4....]

The topic of this thread is the Shadowrun article and art in Game Trade Magazine, not stealing cars - vs - shadowruns.
Take the topic elsewhere please.

[Blade]

[Edited after mod post]

[ravensmuse]

Couple of quick hits -

@ The cover of the article: Soooo, how much did it cost you guys to get Angelina Jolie to pose for you?

On a more serious note, use that cover for if / when you do an update to Shadowbeat, and make it clear that that's the media's interpretation of shadowrunners. Because that's the kind of picture they'd use. I can just see the photographer and the makeup artists and everyone busying themselves around her, Devil Wears Prada style.

@ AH - As always, interesting thoughts.

@ Bull - Everytime you write Andrew in regards to DDH, I always think to myself, "no I didn't! I never volunteered for anything other than writing!"

And on that note, I'm praying people enjoy what I did for DDH. Hoping it comes out this month.

@ the German Arsenal cover - Uh, I'll take that over the crap cover we got for Augmentation. Seriously, that is ten times more appropriate that Uruk-Hai put cyber-arm on female elf Neo. Sorry poser artist!

@ the noir vs. not-noir vs. cyberpunk vs. transhumanism - I'm a transhumanist myself - you can see that by the constant linking to Dresden Codak I have in my sig - and I don't think cyberpunk certainly fits as the descriptor of Shadowrun by this day and age. But things have changed; the game has become an entirely different thing within the twenty plus years it's been around. We've moved from "technology bad! Japan's gonna take us over!" to, "technology is fun and helps us connect to people while shutting us off from the people around us! Oh crap, China's flooding us with lead toys!".

I still say that Ghost in the Shell is one of the biggest influences on Shadowrun, and it presents a "bright", technologically forward culture with plenty of room for shadows - especially the Stand Alone Complex series.

Myself, I look at SR as a combination of Gone in Sixty Seconds, Ghost in the Shell, and Burn Notice, but that's me.

@ Sorceror and Savant - my favorite joke in regards to that: Three Circles, two nipples, and a camel toe.

@ Uh, there was something else here that I'll remember in the post-edit. Whee!