cont'd: Infected as PC Options in SR, Vampire the Shadowing - a good idea? Options

[Angelone]

Where does it state that infected have the right to infect or kill anyone?

A vampire completely draining a victim would still be considered a murderer, draining an unwilling subject or infecting someone could also constitute criminal charges.

I see no reason to believe otherwise, unless you are obsessed with making up strawman arguments.
Unless there is an official source for such statements (hint : there is none), it's not beneficial to the discussion at all to make such assumptions.

The infected eat people or drain their essense given them rights and the protection from the law means they can feed. When they feed they harm or kill people and most likely infect them as well.

[Patrick Goodman]

But ... but Infected rights! They're people too!

Yeah, I think you know where I stand on this noise by now....

And with essence regeneration, they mustn't even really kill you by sucking out your soul, they can slap a bunch of creds into your hand and ship you off to uniomni to regenerate so they can feed on you again!

Yeah, that's going to happen a lot....

Their image in popular fiction notwithstanding, most vampires aren't wealthy, and Essence revitalization is expensive (275,000 nuyen and ten months to restore ONE point of Essence). Not the kind of thing that most vamps, banshees, et al, are going to have handy.

One could argue that they, having their own world conspiracy, are better networked than other Infected.

They're better networked than a whole lot of people, not just other Infected. That said, it doesn't mean they've necessarily got the better PR machine.

Also, Ghouls are a plague. Why should anyone let them get into contact with uninfected?m Taht is so stupid it boggles the mind. HMHVV II always is a zombie apocalypse waiting to happen.

No, HMHVV-II is a loup-garou apocalypse waiting to happen. Okay, it's really not; Jarka-Criscione isn't that bad in terms of infection rate.

People keep bringing up the ghoul apocalypse rules, and I think that's a bad thing. It's not fair to Bobby, who wrote the thing and has since admitted it (the Contact vector) was a mistake. I don't know if it's on the current list of changes, but I don't think it is. I know it's been submitted as an errata item. I, for one, would be pleased to see this particular meme die off.

And where the idea that ghouls are some kind of persecuted, innocent minority comes from is anybody's guess anyway.

Actually, we don't have to guess. It started in Bug City, developed by one Tom Dowd, and written (according to the credits page) by Robert Cruz, Tom Dowd, Mike Nystul, Diane Peron-Gelman, and Christopher Kubasik. Ghoultown starts on page 96. Talk about Tamir Grey and Blaine Hammond, movers and shakers in Ghoultown, start on page 150. Knock yourself out.

I'm not going to dignify the remainder of this with a reply.

[merashin]

and Essence revitalization is expensive (275,000 nuyen and ten months to restore ONE point of Essence). Not the kind of thing that most vamps, banshees, et al, are going to have handy.

actually, the cellular repair pretty specifically says it can restore essence loss from the essence loss power, and it is 15k nuyen with 1 week to 2 months. The faq also says that it works with hmhvv infected draining people then restoring their essence with it. The essence revitalization gene treatment is basically made for those with essence holes from ware

[Patrick Goodman]

actually, the cellular repair pretty specifically says it can restore essence loss from the essence loss power, and it is 15k nuyen with 1 week to 2 months. The faq also says that it works with hmhvv infected draining people then restoring their essence with it. The essence revitalization gene treatment is basically made for those with essence holes from ware

Well...that's bullshit. Gonna have to do something about that, because it's a pretty damn stupid thing.

[Sengir]

The infected eat people or drain their essense given them rights and the protection from the law means they can feed. When they feed they harm or kill people and most likely infect them as well.

Individual rights end where other people's rights are inhibited. So if access to proper nutrition requires you to violate another person's right to live, though luck.

However, most Infected (meaning both "most varieties" and "most of their overall numbers") don't need to kill or harm people, they can and in most cases do get along on corpses. In a world where nobody gives the dead beetlehead in the gutter another look and bodies are regularly sold for parts, that's not really outrageous. Not that consuming parts of dead persons actually is that unusual in human history, mummy powder was still considered some sort of miracle healing at the begining of the 20th century...

[Ancient History]

Well...that's bullshit. Gonna have to do something about that, because it's a pretty damn stupid thing.

There was a lot of debate about reversing Essence loss in general.

[Rasumichin]

The infected eat people or drain their essense given them rights and the protection from the law means they can feed.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't.
Giving them rights could as well be restricted to the right not to be killed by bounty hunters while they starve to death.

That's not how it seems to be handled (though it may sometimes turn out like this in practice), but your argument is still invalid.

When they feed they harm or kill people and most likely infect them as well.

Strain II and III infected don't have to harm anyone.
Strain I infected don't have to kill anyone.
None of them infect anyone by feeding, except Strain I infected who drain a victim completely (which they don't have to).

So yes, it is perfectly possible to give infected civil rights while making it a capital crime if they infect anyone.

[Daylen]

Kill em all and let Glod sort them out. Failing in that; take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[hermit]

Yeah, that's going to happen a lot....

As has been pointed out, they got their own discount essence regenration therapy to make this possible - the exemption of essence drain power damage from Revitalisation and cellular therapy makes no sense as a design choice otherwise - Essence always has been a special attribute and should have remained separate from other attribute regeneration therapies, if regeneratable at all.

So yes, by the rules, it probably is.

They're better networked than a whole lot of people, not just other Infected. That said, it doesn't mean they've necessarily got the better PR machine.

What about the Ordo Maximus and it's clout? They DO have their own PR machine.

No, HMHVV-II is a loup-garou apocalypse waiting to happen. Okay, it's really not; Jarka-Criscione isn't that bad in terms of infection rate.

Typo, my bad. It should have been III.

As for the Ghoulpocalypse, since a scratch is sufficient (or a bite), injection is, too. It worked for Romero's zombie apocalypse scenario, after all. I don't understand why the curability of HMHVV III was retconned away. It was the only sound reason why this hadn't happened in developed countries.

As for a question: Can ghouls subsist on a diet of Ghoul?

However, most Infected (meaning both "most varieties" and "most of their overall numbers") don't need to kill or harm people, they can and in most cases do get along on corpses. In a world where nobody gives the dead beetlehead in the gutter another look and bodies are regularly sold for parts, that's not really outrageous.

There would have to be enough beetleheads for that, and people would have to be willing to tolerate a Shedim threat. Since (if I remember correctly), with YotC, cremation has become even more common than it already was in SR, I doubt there will be. And with the danger of magicans abusing tissue samples, it is conceivable (though not a must) that there is significant pressure to destroy medical waste ASAP, too. And even if all medical waste and arms removed for cyberarms, and all dead squatters, gangers, and even every dead, were dumped to the ghouls - with a growing population of them, that would not work for long as sustenance.

Actually, we don't have to guess. It started in Bug City, developed by one Tom Dowd, and written (according to the credits page) by Robert Cruz, Tom Dowd, Mike Nystul, Diane Peron-Gelman, and Christopher Kubasik. Ghoultown starts on page 96. Talk about Tamir Grey and Blaine Hammond, movers and shakers in Ghoultown, start on page 150. Knock yourself out.

As a fringe movement by populist liberal politicans, which turned sour rather quickly. Politically, it seems the Carbini refuge experiment was a failure, even though it did follow the leper colony lines that have already been discussed.

Also, Tamir Grey and Blaine Hammond both propose Ghoul Rights, and have a Martin Luther King and Malcom X kind of relationship in their views - one firey radical who wants to fight back, one who wants coexistence. But apart from terror groups who supply them with weapons, nobody else seems much interested in supporting them.

What I am wondering is why Ghoul Rights all of a sudden are supported by a majority and by strong political backing. Where did that come from?

But you're right, there was flavour text like this in Companion 3, too. Still, the sudden jump from fringe cause for PETA like people to mainstream cause backed by 'significant political support' is baffling. RC brushes this off as "it came to be in recent years", which is rather cheap for such a massive change in perception. It's not orcs and trolls after all - who are not wired to hurt people to stay alive, and even they had a hard time and it took what, 60 years for them to get where they are in 2072. And the Infected aren't essentially harmless to humans, but cannibals and, in case of strain I, soul suckers. It's hard to see such creatures get any more support than to be settled in some sort of leper camp. And, the only source for anyone considering segregating the Infected I find is that ill-gotten sidebar that, it seems, everybody wishes would be swallowed by a wormhole or something. Again, if the leper camp solution is mentioned elsewhere, a pointer would be nice. Well, Carbini Green might count, though setting up a leper colony downtown without containment is a bit strange.

Also, do cannibal infected have to consume 1% or 5% of their body weight in metahuman meat each week?

Strain II and III infected don't have to harm anyone.
Strain I infected don't have to kill anyone.
None of them infect anyone by feeding, except Strain I infected who drain a victim completely (which they don't have to).

Strain II and III have to eat metahuman flesh, and it seems agreed that bioware or vat meat won't suffice. So yes, they have to hurt, since there won't be enough freebies there (even considering human behavior changes towards dismissing the corpse as a meaningless husk instead of the burial rituals we have had going for the better part of 100.000 years, which I don't consider very likely).

Strain I can suck out half the life of someone, then patch them back up and drain them again. Okaying this would mean it also should be okay to skin a shapeshifter every few days for a pelt, since it grows back. I don't see this happening either. And that is assuming the Strain I Infected can restrain itself, and is a hemovore; it's hard to see how the physical damage done by a Goblin, Dzoo-Noo-Qua or Wendigo done to a body would regenerate as fast as cellular therapy would cure their aura, so we'd also deal with someone being eaten alive bit by bit every few weeks.

They don't nescessarily kill when feeding, but harm they always do. And there're not enough people with a corresponding fetish to go round for every of them.

But yes, the infection needn't nescessarily spread. It is doubtful it won't at least with Type II and III, though, especially Loup Garou with their annual rage phase.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't.

Strictly speaking, sustaining themselves would be included in the basic human rights package. Though I can see the starve to death angle be on politicans' minds, all it needs is a shrewd lawyer and a precedent case, and the government might be eligible to find them people to eat and/or drain because human rights demand it to feed it's citizenry. Since I haven't found any reference for the infected to get some sort of special limited sort of human rights (correct me if I'm wrong), this is a very plausible scenario (and would be set to generate an enormous backlash).

[Sengir]

What about the Ordo Maximus and it's clout? They DO have their own PR machine.

Those guys certainly do not want to be seen as vampire friends in public. Sure, they could pour some money into astroturfed organisations, but that will still not have the same influence as lobbying by people who used to be friends, relatives or neighbours and don't suck anyone dry...

As for the Ghoulpocalypse, since a scratch is sufficient (or a bite), injection is, too.

Unless the guy who scratches you has Infected blood on his hands a scratch is harmless. Same applies to bites (assuming HMHVV is not present in the salvia)

There would have to be enough beetleheads for that, and people would have to be willing to tolerate a Shedim threat.

Given that most people do not carry a thermite charge linked to a heartbeat sensor, the Shedim scare seems to have died down somewhat. Sure, there are new regulations for handling bodies, but there are also laws making a SIN mandatory...

And it's not like ghouls need one corpse a day, that single beetlehead can feed a whole gang for a week.

[hermit]

Those guys certainly do not want to be seen as vampire friends in public. Sure, they could pour some money into astroturfed organisations, but that will still not have the same influence as lobbying by people who used to be friends, relatives or neighbours and don't suck anyone dry...

No, just eat you, turn you, and smell like a carrion eater.

And who says they have to go the bleeding heart liberal civic action group way? Thwey could work the media to portray Vampires favourably, amass wealth to subsidize cellular repair programs for Vampire essence drain slaves, support Goth culture and generally Vampire worship and whitewash the vampiric lifestyle, all the while suppressing anything terrible about their kind (like the sucking out souls bit, whcih makes their thralls commit suicide or go mad eventually, cellular repair or not). Feed the people Twilight, and Ann Rice, and the romanticism of death and all that.

Unless the guy who scratches you has Infected blood on his hands a scratch is harmless. Same applies to bites (assuming HMHVV is not present in the salvia)

That depends entirely on what of the Infected fluid is infective. That saliva isn't is conjecture at best (and since HMHVV III is not sexually transmitted but by biting, it flat out makes no sense the Virus isn't). Blood will carry in any case. And ghouls aren't known for their hygiene. How long does HMHVV III linger after being exposed to the air?

Not saying it is a nescessity, but saying it doesn't has no basis.

Given that most people do not carry a thermite charge linked to a heartbeat sensor, the Shedim scare seems to have died down somewhat. Sure, there are new regulations for handling bodies, but there are also laws making a SIN mandatory...

And it's not like ghouls need one corpse a day, that single beetlehead can feed a whole gang for a week.

And that is still not enough to nourish the Ghouls. A Beetlehead (roughly 60 kg total, because he isn't the most well-fed of people) contains around 60% edible meat and organs, if you're being generous. That's 36 kg. A Ghoul - on average weighing 70 kg themselves - that's 3,5 kg of Beetlehead per week he needs. So unless you're talking about some really small 8 Ghoul gang, he isn't going to last even a week. And even Beetleheads won't die one a week per every 8 Ghouls.

Assuming the usual 10% SINless population in developed countries, and 1% ghouls, they'd have eaten all the SIN-less in a couple weeks. Then what?

And even if the total population would all sign over their deceased to ghoulish consumption -which I still cannot see happening - it would not work over any period of time, as has already been discussed back when Feral Cities came out. It just doesn't work out that way.

[tete]

Well I didn't read thread 1 and I read most of this one so I'm not sure if someone mentioned it before...


Its a great idea to play infected in Shadowrun, in fact its been done before!
(The following is rumor)
See there was this GM named Mark who was running Shadowrun 1e and all his players got infected. He was then at Gen-Con telling this Tom guy about his Shadowrun Vampire game. Tom mentioned that he had always wanted to make a system like Shadowrun but used d10s. So Mark and Tom decided to work together on a new rpg...

[Surt]

Strictly speaking, sustaining themselves would be included in the basic human rights package. Though I can see the starve to death angle be on politicans' minds, all it needs is a shrewd lawyer and a precedent case, and the government might be eligible to find them people to eat and/or drain because human rights demand it to feed it's citizenry. Since I haven't found any reference for the infected to get some sort of special limited sort of human rights (correct me if I'm wrong), this is a very plausible scenario (and would be set to generate an enormous backlash).

Not necesarrily. It depends on the country were talking about the United States had a view of rights more as a freedom from goverment interference. Europe on the other hand view rights as something the goverment should provide. Which is why in England they can be so restrictive about privacy rights and no one has legal recourse. While certainly it can be argued that a goverment has to provide for its citizens. It can slo be argued that the goverment just can't interfere with its citizens right to provide with themselves. In the former your interpretation is correct the goverment would have to provide victims for its ghoul population. More than likely in such a scenarion the promise to feed its citizens would be predicated on military service i.e. ghouls operating as shock troops on the battlefield then eating the dead. However in the latter scenario the infected has a right to feed so long as it doesn't violate another persons right not to be eaten.

[Sengir]

No, just eat you, turn you, and smell like a carrion eater.

Eat you maybe after you are dead, although I guess Ghouls don't eat relatives for the same reason humans don't eat their pet rabbits.
Turn you? Not really, unless you get a blood transmission
The smell? Well, not worse than everybody else in the barrens. And for the higher-ups, there are options like the Clean Metabolism bioware.

That depends entirely on what of the Infected fluid is infective.

Obviousy, and to make things even worse the infection vectors are known to be screwed up. Since something without contact vector that is transmissable via saliva somehow does not make too much sense to me, I am just assuming similar infection vectors as HIV.

And that is still not enough to nourish the Ghouls. A Beetlehead (roughly 60 kg total, because he isn't the most well-fed of people) contains around 60% edible meat and organs, if you're being generous. That's 36 kg. A Ghoul - on average weighing 70 kg themselves - that's 3,5 kg of Beetlehead per week he needs. So unless you're talking about some really small 8 Ghoul gang, he isn't going to last even a week. And even Beetleheads won't die one a week per every 8 Ghouls.

Assuming the usual 10% SINless population in developed countries, and 1% ghouls, they'd have eaten all the SIN-less in a couple weeks. Then what?

A ghoul just needs one percent of his body weight in human meat, so our beetlehead is good for 50 ghoul weeks (wonder when that will become an SI unit...). And just 10% SINless but a full one percent ghouls? In the UCAS it's more like 33% without SIN, and I doubt Infected are more populous than mages...


PS: And seriously, I still wonder how people even get the idea that human rights give anyone the freedom to ignore another person's rights to life and physical wellbeing...

[hermit]

It depends on the country were talking about the United States had a view of rights more as a freedom from goverment interference. Europe on the other hand view rights as something the goverment should provide. Which is why in England they can be so restrictive about privacy rights and no one has legal recourse.

Good point, though it should be noted that a) England is, at best, european fringe, and b) you would never get away with such a total surveillance on the continent - Germany is looking to ban or at least seriously cut down Street View. However, I fully agree that the idea a state has to feed it's population is firmly rooted in my European background, and Americans think differently.

While certainly it can be argued that a goverment has to provide for its citizens. It can slo be argued that the goverment just can't interfere with its citizens right to provide with themselves. In the former your interpretation is correct the goverment would have to provide victims for its ghoul population. More than likely in such a scenarion the promise to feed its citizens would be predicated on military service i.e. ghouls operating as shock troops on the battlefield then eating the dead. However in the latter scenario the infected has a right to feed so long as it doesn't violate another persons right not to be eaten.

Well. This seems a bit odd to me, so I will reply on what I think you are getting at; correct me if I'm wrong.

The Army argument fails for any army that is not the Warhammer 40.000 Imperial Guard, which is always at war somewhere. The UCAS Army hasn't seen much action beyond black ops since the Ghost Dance War. It is possible to feed Ghouls with dead enemies, if you choose to ignore the Geneva conventions, but what if the Army is not engaged in total war somewhere? What to do with them when you have non-war things at hand?

The 'american', if all Americans will excuse this wording for the moment, please, variant, that a Ghoul has a ight to eat so long as it doesn't infrince anyone's right not tobe eaten is ... weird. How else shall the Ghouls feed themselves? That would only legalise browad schale hunting and crippling (hey, you're not eaten if you only miss arms and legs, are you?) and all other kinds of nastiness that will certainly not go well even with a freedom of state intervention minded populace, I imagine. Or do you refer to Ghouls claiming any corpse at gunpoint? I can see trouble there in America, which is far more religious than Europe, even in SR, too ...

[hermit]

Eat you maybe after you are dead, although I guess Ghouls don't eat relatives for the same reason humans don't eat their pet rabbits.

Because there are no feral Ghouls? Besides, I don't know about your neighbourhood, but I am not a relative to any of my neighbours. And please. Ghouls have been well documented that they help victims die before they eat them. It's not like they are in any way known to paitently wait for someone to drop dead out of more natural causes.

Turn you? Not really, unless you get a blood transmission. (...) Obviousy, and to make things even worse the infection vectors are known to be screwed up. Since something without contact vector that is transmissable via saliva somehow does not make too much sense to me, I am just assuming similar infection vectors as HIV.

That still is conjuncture at best. HMHVV is no veneral disease, so it has no reason to concentrate in the gonades. A vector like Rabies makes far more sense. Which is bite and blood. I therefore maintain a bite is fully sufficient. It is much more congruent with current canon, mess that it is, that way, too.

The smell? Well, not worse than everybody else in the barrens. And for the higher-ups, there are options like the Clean Metabolism bioware.

That would be more expensive than a Vampire regenerating 6 Essence, since it will have to be Deltaware?

A ghoul just needs one percent of his body weight in human meat, so our beetlehead is good for 50 ghoul weeks

According to the sidebar made of fail. The text later says 5%.

And just 10% SINless but a full one percent ghouls? In the UCAS it's more like 33% without SIN, and I doubt Infected are more populous than mages...

Numbers are what I remember from different sourcebooks - 33% without SIN in the UCAS is a very high estimate, care to explain? Also, the Ghouls are roughly half the "other" listing in demographics indexes, which usually is around 2%.

And seriously, I still wonder how people even get the idea that human rights give anyone the freedom to ignore another person's rights to life and physical wellbeing...

Since the Infected cannot sustain themselves if they do not, and the human rights guarantee them life and sustenance ...

[Surt]

Good point, though it should be noted that a) England is, at best, european fringe, and b) you would never get away with such a total surveillance on the continent - Germany is looking to ban or at least seriously cut down Street View. However, I fully agree that the idea a state has to feed it's population is firmly rooted in my European background, and Americans think differently.


Well. This seems a bit odd to me, so I will reply on what I think you are getting at; correct me if I'm wrong.

The Army argument fails for any army that is not the Warhammer 40.000 Imperial Guard, which is always at war somewhere. The UCAS Army hasn't seen much action beyond black ops since the Ghost Dance War. It is possible to feed Ghouls with dead enemies, if you choose to ignore the Geneva conventions, but what if the Army is not engaged in total war somewhere? What to do with them when you have non-war things at hand?

The 'american', if all Americans will excuse this wording for the moment, please, variant, that a Ghoul has a ight to eat so long as it doesn't infrince anyone's right not tobe eaten is ... weird. How else shall the Ghouls feed themselves? That would only legalise browad schale hunting and crippling (hey, you're not eaten if you only miss arms and legs, are you?) and all other kinds of nastiness that will certainly not go well even with a freedom of state intervention minded populace, I imagine. Or do you refer to Ghouls claiming any corpse at gunpoint? I can see trouble there in America, which is far more religious than Europe, even in SR, too ...

True about the army but two points. First as far as UCAS and the CAS are concerned the never actually signed the geneva convention. 2. I like the idea of a black ops ghouls you can remove the bodies by eating them leaving no trace of your whereabouts.

Second I was probably too obtuse about the rights argument. 1. Ghouls have a right to eat. 2. I have a right not to be killed and eaten, or maimed or have my soul sucked out of my body by a filthy bloodsucker. In terms of legal rights 2 trumps 1 because it doesn't immediately interfere with anyone elses rights.

p.s. I completely agree with you that the official policy of the infected for all goverments should be wipe them out. But the fluff is what it is and were left to attempt to justify it.

This post has been edited by Surt: May 17 2010, 09:13 PM

[MJBurrage]

In the Sixth World, it is legal and socially acceptable to buy organs for transplant.

Therefore vampires and ghouls do have a legal way to get their food. Even if grown organs do not work for ghouls, they can still buy dead bodies and there are legal ways to do so.

That leaves the vampires need for essence, which begs the following question. Is it known that by the general population or governments that vampires must drain essence? If not than they can legally buy the blood required, while secretly draining essence from groupies.

If the vampires choose drug using groupies, than the missing essence can be blamed on the drugs.

[Sengir]

Because there are no feral Ghouls? Besides, I don't know about your neighbourhood, but I am not a relative to any of my neighbours.

My uncle lives next door...but anyway, I doubt ghouls will feed people they have some emotional attachment to, unless they absolutely need to.

Ghouls have been well documented that they help victims die before they eat them.

The feral ones, sure.

That still is conjuncture at best. HMHVV is no veneral disease, so it has no reason to concentrate in the gonades. A vector like Rabies makes far more sense. Which is bite and blood.

HIV isn't a VD, either. And rabies are transmissable via smear infection, ie contact vector under SR rules.

That would be more expensive than a Vampire regenerating 6 Essence, since it will have to be Deltaware?

Delta is only required for Infected with regeneration, ghouls can cyber up as much as they like (yup, even if it brings their magic down to 0)

According to the sidebar made of fail.

And the old Target: UCAS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Numbers are what I remember from different sourcebooks - 33% without SIN in the UCAS is a very high estimate, care to explain?

Shadowhelix says so (the DS wiki has no numbers)...and seriously, 90% of the population happy, law-abiding SINners? That's not the 6th World I know...

Since the Infected cannot sustain themselves if they do not, and the human rights guarantee them life and sustenance ...

And human rights grant their would-be victims a right to live, tough luck Mr. Ghoul. If I desperately needed an organ transplant that still wouldn't allow me to put on my safari hat and look for potential donors...

[hermit]

Shadowhelix says so (the DS wiki has no numbers)...and seriously, 90% of the population happy, law-abiding SINners? That's not the 6th World I know...

That isn't a better source than any random netbook, sorry. And yes, 10% is less grimdark, but then again, SR is not 40K, even though especially among German players, this tends to be forgotten.

And human rights grant their would-be victims a right to live, tough luck Mr. Ghoul. If I desperately needed an organ transplant that still wouldn't allow me to put on my safari hat and look for potential donors...

Then giving them human rights makes no sense, which is my point. However, the RC says otherwise, so there has to be some way to feed them. And an even greater problem would be Type 1 infected.

My uncle lives next door...but anyway, I doubt ghouls will feed people they have some emotional attachment to, unless they absolutely need to.

So you have a positive emotional attachment to all your neighbours? Do you live in some sort of magical place?

HIV isn't a VD, either.

Of course it is. Sure, blood transfusion infects you more effective, but that goes for nearly any disease. The Virus developed around sexual transmission, not (naturally not occurring) blood transfusion. And yes, Rabies would be contact, but the main contraction is infected bites.

And the old Target: UCAS

And since when are old edition rules relevant? Sorry, but we'Re discussing 4th edition playable infected here, not 3rd Edition playable Ghouls?

Delta is only required for Infected with regeneration, ghouls can cyber up as much as they like (yup, even if it brings their magic down to 0)

Hello, Unnecessary Retcon #10, pleased to meet you.

----

That leaves the vampires need for essence, which begs the following question. Is it known that by the general population or governments that vampires must drain essence?

Sure is.

In the Sixth World, it is legal and socially acceptable to buy organs for transplant.

Cloned and/or type-O vat grown organs, NOT organs that used to be in someone else. Tamanous is an underground criminal organisation, not a Medicorp.

[hermit]

True about the army but two points. First as far as UCAS and the CAS are concerned the never actually signed the geneva convention. 2. I like the idea of a black ops ghouls you can remove the bodies by eating them leaving no trace of your whereabouts.

ad. 1: Source?
ad. 2: That won't fly because a) they cannot eat the larger bones, b) breaking up a body is a literally bloody mess you cannot clean up so easily as is required for Black Ops.

Second I was probably too obtuse about the rights argument. 1. Ghouls have a right to eat. 2. I have a right not to be killed and eaten, or maimed or have my soul sucked out of my body by a filthy bloodsucker. In terms of legal rights 2 trumps 1 because it doesn't immediately interfere with anyone elses rights.

then why give them human rights at all, if they won't have a chance to live them? Why encourage them and make this infected problem an even bigger mess?

I completely agree with you that the official policy of the infected for all goverments should be wipe them out. But the fluff is what it is and were left to attempt to justify it.

Or state it sucks and why it does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[MJBurrage]

I do not recall anything in a Shadowrun book that implies buying organs from the dead—or even whole bodies—is illegal. It would just require a deal with whomever has the legal rights to the body.

Organlegging exists because supply and demand makes stolen organs cheaper than legally acquired ones.

[hermit]

Buying maybe, but what would the Ghouls pay with? Fingerbones?

[Rasumichin]

Numbers are what I remember from different sourcebooks - 33% without SIN in the UCAS is a very high estimate, care to explain? Also, the Ghouls are roughly half the "other" listing in demographics indexes, which usually is around 2%.

Listing 1-2% "Others" in every major sprawl (with the exception of Lagos, where "others" clock in at a whopping 5%) always seemed odd to me.
Taking a look at the total worldwide numbers for sapient critters given in RC and the estimates for total worldwide number of infected in RW only reinforced my doubts as to whether these numbers are correct.

According to RW, the global ghoul population is "probably" somewhere in the tens of millions.
Worldwide.
This includes Asamando, as well as rural areas in sub-Saharan Africa and India, where Krieger's syndrome spread most widely.

1% ghouls in every major sprawl seems extremely unlikely under this assumption.

Of course, no sapient non-metahuman species comes anywhere close to being as populous as ghouls.

Like i said, any noteworthy percentage of "Others" in a sprawl with several million inhabitants hardly makes much sense.


Regarding the whole "right to eat" argument :
Jus take a look at how organ donors work.
No country in the world is obliged to kill somebody to get enough organs for transplantation, or to force anybody to offer one of their kidneys up for transplantation.

I don't see why infected rights should be any different, because outside of the more disgusting aspects attached to it and the case of ferals, it's just the same thing.

You have a bunch of severely diseased people.
They need human organs to survive.
If there's not enough organs due to a lack of voluntary donors, the victims get on a waiting list.
People regularly die while waiting for a donor, because there's never enough organs around.
That's it.

This is Shadowrun. Vampirism is just one more incurable disease.

The only debatable issue is whether health insurance would cover the cellular repair treatment for Essence donors, or cloned/cybernetic limbs if you give your old ones to the ghouls.

[Sengir]

That isn't a better source than any random netbook, sorry. And yes, 10% is less grimdark, but then again, SR is not 40K, even though especially among German players, this tends to be forgotten.

I'm quite sure the numers are taken from SoNA, maybe somebody with that book at hand could check it...? Also, SoE says the ADL has 23% without SIN, hard to believe that the numbers are lower in a place where even today, with a functioning government, the idea of just registering your place of residence with the government is unheard of.

Then giving them human rights makes no sense, which is my point.

Because Ghouls can't do something they absolutely don't need to do, giving them human rights makes no sense? Mr. Non Sequitur called (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So you have a positive emotional attachment to all your neighbours?

Hell no, but the ones who can kiss my rear wouldn't stand up for my rights anyway, so...

Of course it is. Sure, blood transfusion infects you more effective, but that goes for nearly any disease. The Virus developed around sexual transmission, not (naturally not occurring) blood transfusion.

Still the determining factor is the transmission of body fluids, and not just sexual intercourse. Sex also is a great way to catch a flu, that doesn't make it a VD (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And since when are old edition rules relevant? Sorry, but we'Re discussing 4th edition playable infected here, not 3rd Edition playable Ghouls?

Waidaminute, you are the guy who is CONSTANTLY lamenting about retcons (like, in the next sentence of this very posting), and now the old edition rules are irrelevant? Mr. Consistency is on the other line...



PS: And I'd also be interested to in the source for the statement about about the Geneva Conventions, the question of how many of the laws of warfare still are in effect has always interested me.