cont'd: Infected as PC Options in SR, Vampire the Shadowing - a good idea? Options

[hermit]

Listing 1-2% "Others" in every major sprawl (with the exception of Lagos, where "others" clock in at a whopping 5%) always seemed odd to me.
Taking a look at the total worldwide numbers for sapient critters given in RC and the estimates for total worldwide number of infected in RW only reinforced my doubts as to whether these numbers are correct.

According to RW, the global ghoul population is "probably" somewhere in the tens of millions.
Worldwide.
This includes Asamando, as well as rural areas in sub-Saharan Africa and India, where Krieger's syndrome spread most widely.

1% ghouls in every major sprawl seems extremely unlikely under this assumption.

Of course, no sapient non-metahuman species comes anywhere close to being as populous as ghouls.

Always felt this was a huge number, too, but as you say, Ghouls are by far the largest group to be likely listed under Other, so ... taking these numbers as given, 1% Ghouls stand.

Regarding the whole "right to eat" argument :
Jus take a look at how organ donors work.
No country in the world is obliged to kill somebody to get enough organs for transplantation, or to force anybody to offer one of their kidneys up for transplantation.

I don't see why infected rights should be any different, because outside of the more disgusting aspects attached to it and the case of ferals, it's just the same thing.

Not entirely. Setting a competition between medicine and organ donorship aside (because Shadowrun offers plenty of workable medical alternatives), Ghouls still need much more organs than a comparable group of potential receipients, because unlike the man with the bad heart, they don't need one or maybe two or three donor organs in their lifetime, but one a week. And I still cannot see why donating one's body to Ghouls would become a mass phenomenon; there is too much religious interference there, even setting a Shedim threat from corpse storehouses aside.

You have a bunch of severely diseased people.
They need human organs to survive.
If there's not enough organs due to a lack of voluntary donors, the victims get on a waiting list.
People regularly die while waiting for a donor, because there's never enough organs around.
That's it.

This is Shadowrun. Vampirism is just one more incurable disease.

While the waiting list for food is a nice idea, it would get the bleeding heart Ghoul Liberationists up in arms, since you can hardly wait months and months between meals.

------

I'm quite sure the numers are taken from SoNA, maybe somebody with that book at hand could check it...? Also, SoE says the ADL has 23% without SIN, hard to believe that the numbers are lower in a place where even today, with a functioning government, the idea of just registering your place of residence with the government is unheard of.

The AGS isn't even a state, it's a mess of little fiefdoms that boggles the mind ... anyway, you're right, SINless populations seem to have exploded since NAGNA. Okay, so the SINless last the Ghouls a month before they're all eaten. Not exactly workable.

Still the determining factor is the transmission of body fluids, and not just sexual intercourse. Sex also is a great way to catch a flu, that doesn't make it a VD

HIV cannot be caught by tears or Saliva. Flu can (at least some strains). Flu also is transmissible via droplets, which is lung exhaust and saliva. HIV cannot. The fluids with high percentages of the Virus are blood, lymphatic fluid, semen and vaginal fluid. That DOES make it a VD.

And I'd also be interested to in the source for the statement about about the Geneva Conventions, the question of how many of the laws of warfare still are in effect has always interested me.

the SOTA books had most relevant info on that. You could also check out Fields of Fire, and Loose Alliances' UN chapter. I think they are still in effect, but I am not going to verify this now; maybe later. Start a new thread if you want, though, because this is way off topic.

[Sengir]

Okay, so the SINless last the Ghouls a month before they're all eaten. Not exactly workable.

And Europe will be empty in less than 100 years because each year ~1% of the population die and humans are absolutely incapable of reproduction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That DOES make it a VD.

The ICD begs to differ...

Start a new thread if you want, though, because this is way off topic.

Will do, if I remember it.

[hermit]

And Europe will be empty in less than 100 years because each year ~1% of the population die and humans are absolutely incapable of reproduction

That's nonsense. Humans reproduce in decades, while ghouls eat them all in a matter of months.
It won't work out, even considering only 1% of the total population is Infected with Krieger's AND ignoring the 5% food requirement in favour of the 1%.

The ICD begs to differ...

Considering WHO and most european health agencies seem to disagree, I'd like to see a source on this.

[Grinder]

It won't work out, even considering only 1% of the total population is Infected with Krieger's AND ignoring the 5% food requirement in favour of the 1%.

Which numbers would work out?

[Rasumichin]

Which numbers would work out?

It would probably work out if ghouls where used to fix that other unresolved demographic issue with ork birth rates. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[hermit]

The UCAS has around 200 milion residents, that makes around 2 Million Ghouls. Annual death rate is assumed analogous to the US, which is 8.38 in 2010. Annually, this means about 2,49 million corpses.

Workable, if socially doubtful: A ghoul needs 1% his body weight in food each week. An average American weighs in at 100 kg (metas drive that average up). Let's consider all that is edible, makes 100 kg of food for a ghoul. Now, Ghouls are average people and do not change body composition drastically, so that is 1 kg a week needed, which makes for 52 kg per annum. Under such idealised circumstances, each Ghoul would need half a metahuman in this most generous of calculations, and that could well be satisfied, providing no further infections and a serious social change.

SR3: A ghoul needs 1% his body weight in food each week. An average American weighs in at 100 kg (metas drive that average up). Let's consider 60% is either bone nor half-digested nonhuman matter, makes 60 kg of food for a ghoul. Now, Ghouls are average people and do not change body composition drastically, so that is 1 kg a week needed, which makes for 52 kg per annum. That would at the very least be pushing it, though maybe if everybody gave themselves up for consumption (including the ghouls) it could work out. Barely.

RC: A ghoul needs 5% his body weight in food each week. An average American weighs in at 100 kg (metas drive that up). Maybe 60% of that is neither bone nor half-digested nonhuman matter, so that's 60 kg of food for a ghoul. Now, Ghouls are average people and do not change body composition drastically, so that is 5 kg a week needed, which makes for 260 kg per annum. No way this could work.

It would probably work out if ghouls where used to fix that other unresolved demographic issue with ork birth rates.

Shadowrun =/= demographics ... oh, and what if elf women would bear a child every 10 years (on average)? By canon, we'd have a total fertility rate of 40 for them, going by ED life expectancies. That's a slower population explosion but, if it kicks in, we have only orks and elves left.

[Surt]

Honestly the biggest problem with the ghoul population would be rate of infections. Ghouls given rights would still have to be quaritined and segregated from the general population to avoid a massive outbreak. They accidently scrath you and you turn into one of them would be a huge deterant for acceptance. Also given the numbers the goverment would have to implement some form of population control because as Hermit pointed out 1% of the population is not sustainable my bes guess is about 1 million or less is sustainable for legal food sources.

This post has been edited by Surt: May 18 2010, 02:07 PM

[Grinder]

Thanks for the number crunshing, hermit. 2 million ghouls seems way off to me (even though the math is correct), so I'd change the number drastically down. Then the whole thing could work out.

[hermit]

Sure, if we assume 200.000 Ghouls total or less, the corpse donation and leper colony setup would be far more feasible, even though I STILL don't see the social change nescessary (have Americans all of a sudden stopped being Christian?). I am not going to defend the 2 million ghouls, mind you, it's just what we get from official statistics.

[Rasumichin]

The UCAS make up roughly 3% of the world's population.
According to RW, there's tens of millions of ghouls worldwide. So, let's be really generous and assume 90 millions.
If the UCAS have an average number of ghouls, that would mean 2.7 millions.

However, i doubt that there's a total of 90 millions and that there's an average number of ghouls in the UCAS.

It is safe to assume that ghoul numbers in third world nations are much higher than in the UCAS.
It is also not unlikely that "tens of millions" refers to a much lower number than 90 millions.

One more thing to keep in mind : sprawls do not have to meet the average demographic makeup.
Even if 1% of the inhabitants of Seattle are ghouls, this does not mean that there are 2 million ghouls in the UCAS.
They are more likely to center in urban areas in industrialized nations (because places like the barrens would be where most infections take place, because there's migration to ghoul colonies, because there is easier access to organleggers, squatter and junkie corpses and so on).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So, what exactly count as "Others"?
Nagas, Sasquatches, Centaurs, Pixies, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits(?), Infected (please correct me if I'm forgeting someone/thing).

Ghouls would be 50% of these 2%? It sounds a little way too much to me. If you said that half of this 2% is the Infected population and of these 1% left, half of them were Ghouls, I would buy it.

In short: 2% of Others, half of them are Infected = 1%, half of them are Ghouls = 0.5%. I think this could work.

Also, I'm AFB right now, but I thought only humans were infected with Kriegger, right? This would make the average weight of Ghouls, lower than 100kg, if I'm right.

[Dr.Rockso]

So, what exactly count as "Others"?
Nagas, Sasquatches, Centaurs, Pixies, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits(?), Infected (please correct me if I'm forgeting someone/thing).

Ghouls would be 50% of these 2%? It sounds a little way too much to me. If you said that half of this 2% is the Infected population and of these 1% left, half of them were Ghouls, I would buy it.

In short: 2% of Others, half of them are Infected = 1%, half of them are Ghouls = 0.5%. I think this could work.

Also, I'm AFB right now, but I thought only humans were infected with Kriegger, right? This would make the average weight of Ghouls, lower than 100kg, if I'm right.

I'm fairly certain all metatypes can be ghouls

[Sengir]

That's nonsense. Humans reproduce in decades

Individually, yes. When seeing the whole population, babies get born and people die every other moment. The dead chiphead who ends as ghoul food is instantly replaced by yet another ork baby, unless somehow ghouls become so populous that this balance gets disturbed - at which point arguing ghoul rights becomes a moot point.

Considering WHO and most european health agencies seem to disagree, I'd like to see a source on this.

Stright from the WHO...


And seriously, ghouls making up 1% of the UCAS population? That would mean they are more common than Amerinds are today

[Grinder]

The UCAS make up roughly 3% of the world's population.
According to RW, there's tens of millions of ghouls worldwide. So, let's be really generous and assume 90 millions.
If the UCAS have an average number of ghouls, that would mean 2.7 millions.

However, i doubt that there's a total of 90 millions and that there's an average number of ghouls in the UCAS.

It is safe to assume that ghoul numbers in third world nations are much higher than in the UCAS.
It is also not unlikely that "tens of millions" refers to a much lower number than 90 millions.

The "tens of millions" number given in RW seems to be way off too. Don't know what a good number would be, though. 10 millions? 20 millions? Worldwide, of course.

[hermit]

And seriously, ghouls making up 1% of the UCAS population? That would mean they are more common than Amerinds are today

Define "Amerind". You'd be hard pressed to find pure-blooded, as much as many Americans have at least some Natives in their ancestry. And ... what else are these "Other" supposed to be?

Also, with the infection rules, even if you assume a bite is absolutly necessary (which is not supported by any book), 1% is a very, very conservative assumption. Of course, numbing the infectiveness of a Ghoul further and further makes for a growing and growing and ever more ludicrous retcon for the sake of playability.

Also, I'm AFB right now, but I thought only humans were infected with Kriegger, right? This would make the average weight of Ghouls, lower than 100kg, if I'm right.

No, Krieger is the strain which is for everyone.

That reminds me. I have a question for Patrick Goodman.

You wrote that every expression of HMHVV in your book is a substrain. Would that mean that, if, say, a vampire drains a dwarf, the dwarf ould not become a goblin, since he was infected by HMHVV-I-human?

One more thing to keep in mind : sprawls do not have to meet the average demographic makeup.

I always took Shadowrun as very urbanised, what with all these people eating monsters roaming the countryside all of a sudden. So yes, I think in a society where sme 70% or more live in urban centers, the Sprawls are a decent, if not perfect, approximation of the general demographics.

The "tens of millions" number given in RW seems to be way off too. Don't know what a good number would be, though. 10 millions? 20 millions? Worldwide, of course.

Lots of things in RC are off. 20 millions sounds okay in so far as such a population might actually sustain themselves, but that doesn't explain why nobody has done anything about them to date.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And seriously, ghouls making up 1% of the UCAS population? That would mean they are more common than Amerinds are today

Nevermind Amerinds, with a 1% population, Ghouls are as common as Awakened people. This is 6 times more common than a medical professional in my country.

[hermit]

This is 6 times more common than a medical professional in my country.

Does that include nurses?

[Rasumichin]

So, what exactly count as "Others"?
Nagas, Sasquatches, Centaurs, Pixies, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits(?), Infected (please correct me if I'm forgeting someone/thing).

Hard to say what is included in these statistics.
Dour? Troglodytes? AI?
The numbers would make more sense if they include sapient primates other than metahumans and sasquatches, but these aren't even officially recognized as sentient.
OTOH, none of the listed species where offically recognized as sentients back in the day (with the exception of sasquatches) and the "other" numbers where still about as high as today.

Ghouls would be 50% of these 2%? It sounds a little way too much to me. If you said that half of this 2% is the Infected population and of these 1% left, half of them were Ghouls, I would buy it.

Ghouls are by far the most common infected. There's a few houndred thousand non-ghoul infected around worldwide, and most of them will be loup garous.
Vampires and the like are incredibly rare.
Nosferatu even more so.

The "tens of millions" number given in RW seems to be way off too. Don't know what a good number would be, though. 10 millions? 20 millions? Worldwide, of course.

Don't know either.
Another factor is uneven distribution.
Ghouls have, from the beginning, been much more common in Africa.
That's where Ghilani wichtiviridae originated, that's where the least could be done to stop it's spread, that's where Asamando is located and therefor, infected from all over the world migrate to.

I'd assume that at least half of the global ghoul population can be found south of the Sahara desert.
Likely more.

I doubt that there's more than a million ghouls in North America (including the CAS, CFS and NAN).

[hermit]

So that makes Africa a giant case of Resident Evil 5?

[Sengir]

Define "Amerind".

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68178.htm

[hermit]

The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify.

Okay. So there are more ghouls in SR than people who choose NA race in modern America. Conceivable. Because many more have NA ancestry in some way.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Does that include nurses?

No, only doctors, proctologists, oncologists, surgeons, pediatricians, etc.

[Megu]

Thanks for the number crunshing, hermit. 2 million ghouls seems way off to me (even though the math is correct), so I'd change the number drastically down. Then the whole thing could work out.

SR's always been terrible at demographics (remember Native American Nations? Six million Inuit?). I think that's the best solution here.

[Rasumichin]

So that makes Africa a giant case of Resident Evil 5?

Would you seriously expect anything else?

[HappyDaze]

Are Changelings still noted under their primary metatype, or do they classify as "other" for census? I'm pretty sure dragons fit into "other" as well. Drakes might be "other" too, but i doubt very many of them are 'out' yet.