cont'd: Infected as PC Options in SR, Vampire the Shadowing - a good idea? Options

[Sengir]

Even IF the crash somehow generated ohnly nice AI (which it didn't)

I doubt anyone claimed that. The new AIs just have to play nice, because they are not immortal gods any longer.

I'd imagine them to face a steep uphill battle for acceptance.

There's a difference between not being seen as somebody's property, civil rights on paper, and acceptance. See the history of blacks in the US...


But in general I have to agree with you, the Emergence plotline sucked. First came 4th edition and here be technomancers. Then came emergence, and TMs suddenly were a rumor on some matrix SIGs, which the corps tried to keep down at all costs...right...

I agree with the Life-Hater: you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, just like you have with tolerance of other things, like deviant sexuality

...and that line in general is exactly the point at which another person's right for self-determination is violated: Gays have consentual sex, no problem. Persons below the age of consent cannot give consent (duh!), big problem.

By that reasoning, the Infected violate human rights by existing. So how exactly should human rights for them be justified?

Uhm, my point is that those Infected are not granted human rights...

Wrong. HMHVV3 is contact, not injection.

All involved authors have stated that this was an oversight and should have been injection, because otherwise the ghoul apocalypse would be just a matter of time...which of course would also solve the rights issue.

and in SR, another reason to not keep corpses lie around,w hich requires life, pre-corpse storage, which gets us back to pedophilia as in, massive abuse and trauma caused in victim before murder

Uhm, what? I seriously have no idea what you are trying to say here

[hermit]

There's a difference between not being seen as somebody's property, civil rights on paper, and acceptance. See the history of blacks in the US...

Quite frankly, American Blacks never caused the country any noticable harm, unlike AI in Shadowrun. That's a bit hard to compare. It's more like why Russians are not very popular in Eastern Europe (and russian minority face rather impressive amounts of racism), just a little more intense.

But in general I have to agree with you, the Emergence plotline sucked. First came 4th edition and here be technomancers. Then came emergence, and TMs suddenly were a rumor on some matrix SIGs, which the corps tried to keep down at all costs...right...

And everybody forgot about DEUS, yes, ignoring the fact that in SR3 there were TV shows about the Arcology desaster, and it was well public that an AI caused it. But that didn't mesh well with Emergence forcing AI PC into the setting, so it was retconned. Given that Arsenal claims Renraku's household drones tanked because nobody would trust their applicances not to murder them any more, Emergence's stance makes even LESS sense.

Uhm, my point is that those Infected are not granted human rights...

And you take that from where?

Uhm, what? I seriously have no idea what you are trying to say here

Shedim. It's stated in the Lagos writeup that, after a bit of trouble with their food wanting to eat them, the wise and respected nation of Asamondo decided to instead snatch hundreds of thousands of live people each year and cut them up bit by bit. Hey, they're only taking what is their right to take, right?

All involved authors have stated that this was an oversight and should have been injection, because otherwise the ghoul apocalypse would be just a matter of time...which of course would also solve the rights issue.

Uh, right. So Ghoulism suddenly is retcnned into not being infectious much, at all. That makes Ghouls more logical as some sort of glorified suffering lepers, true, but it also is a blatant retcon. Not that the Infected chapter in RC isn't rich in them regardless.

[The Jopp]

Uh, right. So Ghoulism suddenly is retcnned into not being infectious much, at all. That makes Ghouls more logical as some sort of glorified suffering lepers, true, but it also is a blatant retcon. Not that the Infected chapter in RC isn't rich in them regardless.

Not quite.

Making the infection an injection powers fits more with the Zombie plague theme - Once they bite you are so doomed.

Having it being a touch based attack power is far to powerful since any deranged individual (players, GM, twisted shadowrunners) can liquify a few hundred ghouls and process them into the citys water supply or use crop dusters to sprinkle ghoul plague all over the city.

I would not call Ghouls "not being infectous at all" since they now have to bite people, the ghoul infection is still very powerful.

Besides, Ghouls are so much less of a problem since they are all metahumans as well, which means they can eat each other - presto, send Ghouls to hunt Ghouls.

[hermit]

Besides, Ghouls are so much less of a problem since they are all metahumans as well, which means they can eat each other - presto, send Ghouls to hunt Ghouls.

Though current books are silent on that matter, I seem to remember that didn't work before.

Making the infection an injection powers fits more with the Zombie plague theme - Once they bite you are so doomed.

No, it downgrades the threat Ghouls pose even further, so as to promote them to viable PC via retcon. Much like the Wendigo suddenly lost the whole cannibal cult idea, which is absolutly central to the Wendigo myth.

Having it being a touch based attack power is far to powerful since any deranged individual (players, GM, twisted shadowrunners) can liquify a few hundred ghouls and process them into the citys water supply or use crop dusters to sprinkle ghoul plague all over the city.

Yes, and with injection, you'd need ghoul spit, shit, or blood. The difference being? Touch based is grushing a Ghoul's shoulder, or sitting where a Ghoul sat a few hours before. HIV versus Leper.

I would not call Ghouls "not being infectous at all" since they now have to bite people, the ghoul infection is still very powerful.

And HMHVV3 suddenly stopped being curable in the early stages, yes. Another need- and senseless retcon.

[Sengir]

Quite frankly, American Blacks never caused the country any noticable harm, unlike AI in Shadowrun.

Sure their history is different, but it still shows that being no longer seen as anyone's property does not equal full civil rights and the acceptance of those rights (lynching was illegal, but who cared?)

And you take that from where?

Frst posting in this thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

the wise and respected nation of Asamondo

..which is ruled by an queen with dreams of a superior race of ghouls, and where forced sterilization for anyone who does not live up to that norm is mandatory. Certainly not one of the most elightened places in the 6th world, ghoul rights or not.

Uh, right. So Ghoulism suddenly is retcnned into not being infectious much, at all.

Retconning something requires that something to be part of the canon. The global ghoul apocalypse never was close to being canon.


Edit:

Much like the Wendigo suddenly lost the whole cannibal cult idea, which is absolutly central to the Wendigo myth.

Uhm, that's still part of the fluff. Rules-wise, it is represented by the influence power

Yes, and with injection, you'd need ghoul spit, shit, or blood. The difference being?

Injection requires body fluids to enter the bloodstream, not the stomach. same story as with HIV, oral sex normally does not transmit the virus.

[hermit]

Frst posting in this thread?

Where Wendigos, Vampires, and the other intelligent essence drainers were not mentioned?

Certainly not one of the most elightened places in the 6th world, ghoul rights or not.

Not if you ask the Lagos writeup. Or the UN, which for some reasion (RC) wants to recognise the Ghouldom as a nation. Because, unlike Somalitopia, it is such an enlightened place and it's denizens are all just misunderstood. Oh, and Horizon supports them, like it supports anything the writersd want to promote, because Horizon is always right.

Sure their history is different, but it still shows that being no longer seen as anyone's property does not equal full civil rights and the acceptance of those rights (lynching was illegal, but who cared?)

Point being, AI are getting the full civil rights treatment somehow, despite having damaged and murdered millions. Because people seem to be incredibly forgiving so long as something has a fluffy icon.

[Sengir]

Where Wendigos, Vampires, and the other intelligent essence drainers were not mentioned?

I'd saywendigos and vampires count as "Infected who can't just eat corpses but need to hunt down sapient being and drain their 'life force' "...

Not if you ask the Lagos writeup.

That is straight from the Lagos writeup in Runner Havens...

Oh, and Horizon supports them, like it supports anything the writersd want to promote, because Horizon is always right.

Come on, the hints that Horizon has its own agenda rather than being the good samaritans are not exactly suble

[Patrick Goodman]

More old-post-to-new cut-and-paste! I'll get caught up eventually.

I always loved the fact that vampires in SR have nowhere to run on sucking blood. They need to do it, and when they do it they do massive and irreparable harm to their victims. Self aware victims. They can't suck rats and cry about how tortured they are. If they continue to live they are monsters, and that makes me very happy.

Of course they can. All that is required is basic emotions, for the emotional bond, and every of the more intelligent animals (including, but not limited to, rats, cats, dogs, crows, pigs) is capable of that. Since the prerequzisite of cognitive intelligence has fallen, you can easily build Twilight vampires. Especially with Runners' Companion.

Emphasis mine.

Er...no, it hasn't. Dietary Requirement weaknesses like Metahuman Blood or Metahuman Flesh can't be worked around that easily, nor can the Essence Drain power's requirement for Sapience (there is no Sentience power; this is an errata issue that's being addressed).

Not nearly so easy as you make it sound with this part of your argument. They wanna live. they gotta injure people, if not kill them outright. Otakusensei's right, they can't get around that.

Ouch, I just read up on that. So Running Wild trumps SR4A on critter powers?

Possibly, though the Essence Drain power in RW is cut-and-pasted, typos and all, from SR4A. As stated above, there's no way around hurting or killing Sapient beings.

More later; I might even get to address things in the new post sometime this year....

[HappyDaze]

Er...no, it hasn't. Dietary Requirement weaknesses like Metahuman Blood or Metahuman Flesh can't be worked around that easily, nor can the Essence Drain power's requirement for Sapience (there is no Sentience power; this is an errata issue that's being addressed).

Not nearly so easy as you make it sound with this part of your argument. They wanna live. they gotta injure people, if not kill them outright. Otakusensei's right, they can't get around that.

Metahuman blood can be from a blood bank, and there is a workaround for the Essence if you can get a Great Form Guardian or Task spirit. You can still sparkle, it's just not easy.

[hermit]

Emphasis mine.

Er...no, it hasn't. Dietary Requirement weaknesses like Metahuman Blood or Metahuman Flesh can't be worked around that easily, nor can the Essence Drain power's requirement for Sapience (there is no Sentience power; this is an errata issue that's being addressed).

Not nearly so easy as you make it sound with this part of your argument. They wanna live. they gotta injure people, if not kill them outright. Otakusensei's right, they can't get around that.

Yes, it's the sentience power error (A typo, mistaking sentience for sapience, which I took as a retcon because it fit the overall picture). No, the Essence requirement does not work quite as easily.

The flesh and meat CAN, though, it's in the RC (cultured bioware or cloned limbs work; as well as cloned vat blood).

[The Jopp]

The flesh and meat CAN, though, it's in the RC (cultured bioware or cloned limbs work; as well as cloned vat blood).

Not sure about RAW but my personal opinion is that there must still be some kind of bond to a living or recently living being.

That is, an arm cannot be clonegrown and presented on a platter. On the other hand, if a process of cloning fully grown humans, or at least semigrown and that they have been at least somewhat alive enough to count as metahuman and then be slaughtered/die then they can be used.

I can see a new market for some gruesome cloning labs creating a metahuman meatfarm.

[Ascalaphus]

Is it me or does it strike anyone else as weird that vampires need BOTH blood and essence, but not in the same "product"?

[hermit]

Yes, it is weird (and yet another retcon), as in previous editions, Essence was all Vampires needed, and blood or meat was purely symbolical of that essence drain.

[Rasumichin]

Metahuman blood can be from a blood bank, and there is a workaround for the Essence if you can get a Great Form Guardian or Task spirit. You can still sparkle, it's just not easy.

As soon as you endow an animal with sapience, you have a fully sentient being.
You don't eat the soul of a human being, but unless you're extremely speciecist, it's morally just as bad.
Same goes for buying a naga from an exotic pet vendor and draining it (which would be absolutely fine under UCAS law, BTW, there's people who wear naga skin boots mentioned in RW).

A sparkly vampire would have to go for willing donors.
Unless you have a close friend or relative who opts as a donor and you can pay for Cellular Repair or Revitalization treatment, this opens up new problems.
Do you want to feed off depraved vampire groupies or junkies looking for the ultimate high?
What about poor people selling a part of their Essence?
How much real consent can you expect under such circumstances?
What about mortally ill people offering their essence?
What do various religions have to say on this issue, given the implications the whole essence thing can have ingame?

All are possibilities, none are particularly sparkly when you take a close enough look at them.
You are still forced to do massive damage to the holistic integrity/chi/soul/lifeforce/whateveryouwannacallit of a thinking, feeling being on a regular basis.
It's not irreparable damage anymore thanks to advances in gene therapy, but this doesn't take away the fact that these donors take massive strain and spend months at a time floating in a vat. It is certainly more acceptable than hunting, but introduces yet another, financial, problem to feeding.

This doesn't even begin to adress the problems that feeding by a goblin, DNQ or wendigo would entail.

Getting the meat for Strain II and III patients seems easier at first.
There's a few people who donate their bodies, and some jurisdictions would have no problem giving them the remains of SINless sqatters or executed criminals (Atztlan, anyone?).
Still, i see massive supply problems here (and Feral Cities shares my opinion).

I could certainly see how Horizon markets their new vampire gothpop superstar as the tragic, sparkly prince of the night, and there would be more than enough adolescent self hurters offering themselves up as the next snack.
But your average infected will live a life of constant malnourishment, which is why the fluff mentions a sizeable portion of infected that doesn't give a damn about civil rights and stays underground, going for the whole top of the food chain cannibal supremacist approach instead.
Ultimately, they might at least be honest about their nature.

The infected in SR are never the tragic, romantic, homoerotic superheros from an Anne Rice novel (if they come close to that, it's more Philadelphia than Interview with a Vampire).
They are certainly not the neutered, family-friendly, sparkly guys from Twilight, even though they might try to appear as such.
They are either predatory monsters more reminiscent of Jeffrey Dahmer than Edward Cullen or unbelievably ill, pitiable persons waiting in line for their next feed while their comlinks broadcast warning signals to every citizen around, most likely also huddling in ghettos in most jurisdictions.

That said, i have always liked fictitious moral dilemmas.
The infected fit perfectly into SR's tradition to deconstruct established fantasy clichés, which i have also always approved of.
And even though i'd likely never play one, i'd have no problem allowing them in my game, or playing in the same group with an infected character.

But don't give me any of that Twilight crap, it's not how vampires in SR work, even though SR4 makes it alot easier to delude yourself into thinking so.

[I Hate All Life]

Round the very worst criminals and scum the Shadowrun world has to offer -- rapists, pederasts, men that beat their wives and kids into pulp, serial killers, and the like. Let them loose in prison-like "preserves" set aside for vampires, ghouls, goblins and the like. Bon appetit.

Sure, you're killing sentient creatures. And if you take a liberal angle on this (I don't), what you're doing could be defined as "wrong." But the Infected get to eat and society benefits. Win-win! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

which would be absolutely fine under UCAS law, BTW, there's people who wear naga skin boots mentioned in RW

In the CAS, yes.

The infected in SR are never the tragic, romantic, homoerotic superheros from an Anne Rice novel (if they come close to that, it's more Philadelphia than Interview with a Vampire).
They are certainly not the neutered, family-friendly, sparkly guys from Twilight, even though they might try to appear as such.
They are either predatory monsters more reminiscent of Jeffrey Dahmer than Edward Cullen or unbelievably ill, pitiable persons waiting in line for their next feed while their comlinks broadcast warning signals to every citizen around, most likely also huddling in ghettos in most jurisdictions.

That said, i have always liked fictitious moral dilemmas.
The infected fit perfectly into SR's tradition to deconstruct established fantasy clichés, which i have also always approved of.
And even though i'd likely never play one, i'd have no problem allowing them in my game, or playing in the same group with an infected character.

But don't give me any of that Twilight crap, it's not how vampires in SR work, even though SR4 makes it alot easier to delude yourself into thinking so.

I can agree with most of that, however I would make it abundantly clear to the player the character would be in for a very hard time, and the player would need to do a lot of convinving they actually mean to play the vampire like this, and not like some homoerotic VtM cliché.

And even if you dismiss the more stupid retcons, you'd still have a lot of discussion before you because the player before long would want house rules like Megu suggested, effectively undermining your SR game for Vampire - the Shadowing.

And when slapped with all the downsides of being Infected discussed, the character would hardly make a runner many other runners would want to work with.

[Starmage21]

In the CAS, yes.


I can agree with most of that, however I would make it abundantly clear to the player the character would be in for a very hard time, and the player would need to do a lot of convinving they actually mean to play the vampire like this, and not like some homoerotic VtM cliché.

And even if you dismiss the more stupid retcons, you'd still have a lot of discussion before you because the player before long would want house rules like Megu suggested, effectively undermining your SR game for Vampire - the Shadowing.

And when slapped with all the downsides of being Infected discussed, the character would hardly make a runner many other runners would want to work with.

Vampires are kind of hard to notice, unless they run about baring their fangs at everyone, and most Mr. Johnsons dont show up to the meet with a wage-mage to assense everyone that comes to the meet.

Blood AND essence are relatively easy to get during the course of a Shadowrun unless things just go absolutely perfect and noone gets shot/dies. At least for the blood part, it's easy enough to use the optional house rule for increased lifestyle costs. Theres too many places that a shady individual like a shadowrunner could get metahuman blood easily.

As far as the emogoth WoD players, you should know what kind of character is goign to come out the gate before your player ever makes one. I'm playing a nosferatu in a game right now, and my uncouth quality is a problem for the group much more than being infected ever was, but then again I tend to follow the rule: you dont shit where you eat. To the members of my team, I am the nicest vampire they will ever meet. But! We have been playing for about 4 months now, and it took 2 of those months for my secret to ever come out, by then being infected was no worse than any of the other stuff we'd done.

[Sengir]

The flesh and meat CAN, though, it's in the RC (cultured bioware or cloned limbs work; as well as cloned vat blood).

Like I said, the very same sidebar also mentions efforts to "imbue" meat with the metahuman aura traces required by the Infected. Yep, RC is more than just a bit contradictory...


@Ascalaphus:

Is it me or does it strike anyone else as weird that vampires need BOTH blood and essence, but not in the same "product"?

I guess most vampires will still do both at once because their "tradition" believes the two are coupled and thus they actually need to suck blood to perform the neccessary ritual. Remember, as far as magic goes belief equals reality.

[hermit]

Vampires are kind of hard to notice, unless they run about baring their fangs at everyone

Uhm, no, they must *smell*. Carrion eaters and pure carnivores always are odourous. Lots of sulfuric amino acids in meat.

most Mr. Johnsons dont show up to the meet with a wage-mage to assense everyone that comes to the meet.

Since the average runner group has a mage team member, not taking magical backup with him would be enormously stupid of Mr J.

Blood AND essence are relatively easy to get during the course of a Shadowrun unless things just go absolutely perfect and noone gets shot/dies. At least for the blood part, it's easy enough to use the optional house rule for increased lifestyle costs. Theres too many places that a shady individual like a shadowrunner could get metahuman blood easily.

And that assumes fellow PC will shrug the fact their team member is a sould eating monster just off, PC screen of protecxtion, or something. Personally, any of my PCs would kill the Vampire character the first opportunity after my PC becomes aware of what they are. Can't trust these buggers. You could as well run with a bug spirit.

As far as the emogoth WoD players, you should know what kind of character is goign to come out the gate before your player ever makes one. I'm playing a nosferatu in a game right now, and my uncouth quality is a problem for the group much more than being infected ever was, but then again I tend to follow the rule: you dont shit where you eat. To the members of my team, I am the nicest vampire they will ever meet.

And if that floats your boat, fine, but I'd have trouble imagining a character trusting a vampire any more than they'd trust a bug.

Also, if you don't behave uncouth to the team, you are, IMO, doing it wong, but that'S the PC screen of protection again, I guess.

I guess most vampires will still do both at once because their "tradition" believes the two are coupled and thus they actually need to suck blood to perform the neccessary ritual. Remember, as far as magic goes belief equals reality.

Rationalise it as you will, it still constitutes a massive and unnecessary retcon. One of several, the much-quoted incoherend sidebar providing several others.

Yep, RC is more than just a bit contradictory...

Contradictionary isn't the first thing that comes to my mind, but it also starts with a C.

[Rasumichin]

In the CAS, yes.

Not sure about the naga, but there's a bunch of sapients that are legally treated like every other animal in the UCAS.

I can agree with most of that, however I would make it abundantly clear to the player the character would be in for a very hard time, and the player would need to do a lot of convinving they actually mean to play the vampire like this, and not like some homoerotic VtM cliché.

And even if you dismiss the more stupid retcons, you'd still have a lot of discussion before you because the player before long would want house rules like Megu suggested, effectively undermining your SR game for Vampire - the Shadowing.

And when slapped with all the downsides of being Infected discussed, the character would hardly make a runner many other runners would want to work with.

If you have a player who wants house rules for added twilightyness, all is lost. If he wants to skew the game in the direction of WoD, it's not much better (especially if it's oWoD).
I seriously hope this never happens to me, and anyone who is burdened with a player going down the sparkly road can always have my pity.
Discussing this is more or less pointless, though. You either have a player like this, or you don't.
Let's stick to rules and setting here, not problem players.

There's a few things that absolutely wouldn't work, of course. Like registered infected with a criminal SIN. Like with all things that can cause legal troubles, i expect the players to take care to cover things up. You don't go downtown with your Thunderstruck over your shoulder, and you don't feed on runs or walk around without a good cover when you look like the troll version of the elephant man. You especially don't try to drain your teammates, but choosing runners as your victims is so terminally stupid that we are in problem player territory again.

If you keep basics like that in mind, it shouldn't be too hard to pull this off.
Easy mode would be simply getting a bunch of vampire groupies as a group contact, or an organlegger contact for a ghoul.
Wendigo would be another can of worms. These would only be an unproblematic option if you play a group of hunters, ironically.
You want cannibal essence? Go eat Edward.


@ Sengir : "believe equals reality" isn't canonic truth, it's just a widespread ingame opinion, especially among those with a hermetic approach towards magic.

[hermit]

If you have a player who wants house rules for added twilightyness, all is lost. If he wants to skew the game in the direction of WoD, it's not much better (especially if it's oWoD).
I seriously hope this never happens to me, and anyone who is burdened with a player going down the sparkly road can always have my pity.
Discussing this is more or less pointless, though. You either have a player like this, or you don't.
Let's stick to rules and setting here, not problem players.

Fair enough.

There's a few things that absolutely wouldn't work, of course. Like registered infected with a criminal SIN. Like with all things that can cause legal troubles, i expect the players to take care to cover things up. You don't go downtown with your Thunderstruck over your shoulder, and you don't feed on runs or walk around without a good cover when you look like the troll version of the elephant man. You especially don't try to drain your teammates, but choosing runners as your victims is so terminally stupid that we are in problem player territory again.

The feeding on PC problem appears as soon as you take a run out of the urban surroundings and have to lie low in the wild for more than a few days. Or if you get locked up with the Vamp in a container, being smuggled from Sprawl A to Sprawl B. And that's assuming an Infected you cannot recognise at first sight. Would you want to spend a week long travel in a container with an Infected?

Not sure about the naga, but there's a bunch of sapients that are legally treated like every other animal in the UCAS.

True, but the UCAS recognises more sapients than many nations. Not sure about Naga, though.

Wendigo would be another can of worms. These would only be an unproblematic option if you play a group of hunters, ironically. You want cannibal essence? Go eat Edward.

True with the retconned 4th edition wedigo which misses the whole point of being a wendigo. This retcon made these 'wendigos' about as much a wendigo as the Cullens are vampires. Really, please, look it up.

A Wendigo is a creature that inspires cannibalism in others. That is the whole point of this monster. Now, SR chose to dismiss the gaunt giant shape in favour of an obscure X-men reference, and SR4 chose to just keep the Xmen reference. It might as well sparkle.

A proper wendigo would make you eat Edward. And then eat you. Not something you'd want to have on your team, eh?

[Sengir]

Rationalise it as you will, it still constitutes a massive and unnecessary retcon.

I'm not saying that I like this dualism between sucking blood and sucking essence (just like I find the idea of vampires eating ONLY blood a bit odd), just that the average vampire will probably act like a classic vampire because he believes drinking blood and draining essence are fundamentally connected. Then again, aren't you the guy who is complaining that SR vampires are too much like the ones found in the movies? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hermit]

I'm not saying that I like this dualism between sucking blood and sucking essence (just like I find the idea of vampires eating ONLY blood a bit odd), just that the average vampire will probably act like a classic vampire because he believes drinking blood and draining essence are fundamentally connected.

The retcon makes eating blood on a daily basis a nescessity, while the vampire still needs to essence drain only about once a month. So either he will starve before long (not being able to essence drain beyond 12), or he eats blood from the fridge, like vamps from the movies.

See what I'm getting at?

[Dahrken]

If I'm not mistaken, while an SR4 vampire can perfectly draw blood without draining Essence - and need to do that fairly often - he cannot drain Essence without taking blood. The bite and bloodletting establish the connexion to the aura of the victim that allow him to replenish his own fading life force.

Was were the exact mechanism about that in the previous editions ?

[hermit]

Bite and blootletting, as well as emotional connection of any kind (love, hate, a victim being raped) and the victim being immobilised by restraints or magic were required for the essence drain of a Vampire to work, which would take something around (essence+2)minutes - requiring a bit more than just sucking some secguard dry, as some would have it (that would be V:tS again). Nosferati worked similar.

A banshee would require the same without the bloodletting - and needed to put enormous fear into the victim, utilising it's critter power (howl of the banshee and all).

A Dzoo-Noo-Qua would somehow drain Essence by restraining and ... well, just restraining, and the victim in it's grip aging for some reason.

And a Wendigo would require a cannibal to be cut up and fry him and eat the entire meat for essence.

None of the infected would require regualr sustenance, though.