cont'd: Infected as PC Options in SR, Vampire the Shadowing - a good idea? Options

[Patrick Goodman]

More old-post-to-new cut-and-paste.

They are unnescessary as PC option. They don't add anything to a game except emoness or more bloodlust and gorn.

And the rules support this, with emotional bond when feeding, cannibalist food requirements, ect. Also, they retconned the infected massively with RC, making a number of them suddenly sentient, and making wendigos effectively ghousl with hiar, which takes away the entire concept of a wendigo.

I agree that they don't add anything to the game as a player option.

However, some of the retconning you mention has been going on for a while now (whether I like it or not), certainly before Bobby did the Infected chapter in RC. I don't like the rules in RC, but laying all this on Bobby isn't right, in my opinion.

I also don't see where they particularly watered down the wendigo; they've always been essentially "ghouls with hair." They just have a lot of other things going for them (like Influence and always being magicians). I don't recall the PC wendigo Quality, and I'm away from my books, so I'll have to check later, but I don't think all of that was lost.

Vampires can exist on rats, puppies, or kittens - so long as they have a Great Form Guardian spirit use Endowment to grant the critter Sapience!

Yeah, and that's something I have handy at all times...frankly, it's way more trouble than it's worth. Not to mention it being even less ethical than just finding some poor sap on the street and chowing down. More on this later, I'm sure.

Well, there are not even laws against killing various sapient beings...like vampires for example (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

With RC, of course there are. It is illegal now to lynch your neighbourhood vampire unless maybe in self defense. Because, hey, you have to push your inane PC options. See Emergence.

Don't even get me started on Infected rights....

That said, bounties are still on the books. They're fairly low, but it's not like they aren't there. I'll have to expound on this later, when I'm not up against the clock on my lunch break.

OTOH, I'm almost done with the old thread and can start talking at length about the stuff in this new one....

[Dahrken]

SR4A is roughly the same. You need a strong emotion, and a Charisma+MAgic (10-Essence, 1 minute) extended test without any disturbance or interruption - here too a bit more convoluted and complex than simply "sucking some secguard dry" as Hermit elegantly put it...

What was the Essence loss rate for the various Infecteds ?

[hermit]

However, some of the retconning you mention has been going on for a while now (whether I like it or not), certainly before Bobby did the Infected chapter in RC. I don't like the rules in RC, but laying all this on Bobby isn't right, in my opinion.

I don't intend to. I point out what I dislike about the rules. Yes, some of these changes have been quietly happened before, like Banshees suddenly becoming haemovores. I also can wel imagine Ancient was asked to tone down a lot of the monstrosity in the Infected, and didn't really appreciate that; it would explain the drop in quality between these rules and a lot of his other stuff. This is not about me vs. Ancient, it is about why I dislike the rules, as they are.

I also don't see where they particularly watered down the wendigo; they've always been essentially "ghouls with hair." They just have a lot of other things going for them (like Influence and always being magicians).

The cannibal cult and preference of eating corrupted cannibal metahumans were a staple and indeed the center of the wendigo's monstrous nature in SR1 through 3. They abruptly are declared unnecessary in SR4, complete with making the Wendigo a Ghoul with Hair who drains essence occasionally.

And well, thanks for taking the time to work through all this as you do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SR4A is roughly the same. You need a strong emotion, and a Charisma+MAgic (10-Essence, 1 minute) extended test without any disturbance or interruption - here too a bit more than "sucking some secguard dry" as you elegantly put it...

What was the Essence loss rate for the various Infecteds ?

Edit: One point a month mostly, unless mentioned otherwise (is't with any of the infected).

[I Hate All Life]

I can agree with most of that, however I would make it abundantly clear to the player the character would be in for a very hard time, and the player would need to do a lot of convinving they actually mean to play the vampire like this, and not like some homoerotic VtM cliché.

Whether there's a connection between homosexuality and vampires or not, there's no need for gay-bashing ignorance like this. Vampires tend to be portrayed as sexier and more attractive than mere mortals, and I suppose it's a male reflex to label a prettyboy or any guy that makes them feel insecure as "gay/queer/[preferred homophobic term]", but it's really not warranted.

And for the record, vampires in V:tM are no more likely to be "gay" than anyone else; sexuality doesn't really apply to them anymore anyway (being undead things that don't reproduce sexually*), though vampires tend to prefer feeding on those they were attracted to in life. But do you worry about whether the beef you eat comes from a bull or a cow? Similarly, to a lot of vampires, a mortal is just a blood source, gender bedamned. And the "goth" stereotype people bandy about doesn't really apply either; vampires try to blend in with their prey, and since the goth movement isn't the rage it used to be, one that does the pasty gaunt loner in black shtick is greatly limiting his feeding options. (I daresay much of this applies to SR vampires.) In any case, try to understand the game before you bash it, please... lest I assume you're one of those undersocialized, pimply, morbidly obese cave trolls in a Star Wars shirt that only gets laid through cybering with other geeks in Anime Furry Chat -- like all gamers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(* Extremely Thin-Blooded Kindred and Yang-imbalanced Kuei-jin aside.)

[Grinder]

Uhm, no, they must *smell*. Carrion eaters and pure carnivores always are odourous. Lots of sulfuric amino acids in meat.

Is that written down that vampires are odourous too in any SR4 book?

[hermit]

Is that written down that vampires are odourous too in any SR4 book?

For Ghouls, because of their carrion eating nature. So no, not explicitly. It would detract from the sparkling, after all.

Whether there's a connection between homosexuality and vampires or not, there's no need for gay-bashing ignorance like this. Vampires tend to be portrayed as sexier and more attractive than mere mortals, and I suppose it's a male reflex to label a prettyboy or any guy that makes them feel insecure as "gay/queer/[preferred homophobic term]", but it's really not warranted.

Uhm, no? Those books referred to (not necessarily the vamoire as a concept, but a certain developnment of that concept; much like lesbian supervampires from outer space) are really more like a girls' variant of lesbian porn. A fetish where you dismiss the sex you do not find attractive for just those you do. Just like most fanfics are, sadly.

This has nothing to do with whether vampires as a concept have homosexual connotations (though yes, I can see that in V:tM), not anymore than whether girls' boarding schools (or, duh, female vampires) are inherently lesbian somehow. Sorry if I offended you; but I think you interpreted what I wrote (or rather, paraphrased, since I wasn't the first to bring this up) in a way that seems a bit reflexive.

And for the record, vampires in V:tM are no more likely to be "gay" than anyone else;

My experiences are different, to put it mildly. Especially if played by women.

But do you worry about whether the beef you eat comes from a bull or a cow?

Not beef, but I sure worry about lamb or pork. That can end with a really awful smell if it was a ... male variant (lacking the proper words here).

In any case, try to understand the game before you bash it, please...

Fair enough, although I don't find the game as such very appealing. And the gamers ... well, among those I know there was a noticable trend towards female goths with way more yaoi fantasies than would ever be allowed with male players. Just saying. A girl in one of my current groups fled the local V:tM because that put her, being gay herself, rather off.

[Grinder]

But not for vampires. Would make sense that they're suffering from the same, but as long as it's not supported by RAW...

[hermit]

... they sparkle, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Grinder]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[I Hate All Life]

If I misinterpreted what you meant hermit, I'm sorry, but I didn't see how homoeroticism specifically applies to the discussion. I think people's attempts to overly romanticize vampires (as either gay or straight) is mildly annoying, and that archetype just doesn't fit SR Infected. If people want to explore the romantic angle of vampire -- "romantic" in any context of the word, from Byronian drama to erotica -- there are games for that (Vampire: the Masquerade and its Requiem clone included, to a limited extent), but SR isn't the game for that. You can retool it so it is, I guess... but why the heck do that?

I'll grant you that people might play Masquerade certain ways; what I'm discussing is the game as it's written/intended. I'm sure people turned games into immature and gratuitous explorations of sexuality; some of the damned Vampire novels did that. But the people I played with were much more likely to turn Masq into some sort of asinine crossover combat-gumby bloodbath that would likely make even the most hardcore of you SR fans; the game broke fairly badly when people did that, as it wasn't designed for that sort of play. And the developers nailed home the unromantic angle of Kindred repeatedly in the sourcebooks. For instance, the undead were naturally sexually impotent and could only simulate sexual functions by tapping into their hard-earned blood reserves. (So doing the Casanova thing to feed from someone means that you have to blow blood points to get an erection or to create vaginal lubrication, which reduces the benefit you get from feeding because you have to replace the blood you just spent!) The desire for blood replaces the sex drive and romantic urges; the more attractive someone was to a vampire, the more the leech desired to eat the object of his affections; there were exceptions to this rule, the truly humane that could feel love apart from hunger, but it was damned rare and the desire to feed never went away. Underneath the glam and eternal beauty pitches, being a vampire sucked pretty hard (pun intended), and the books -- especially Revised -- emphasized this.

Of course, many groups simply glossed over the asexuality of Kindred in Masq, often to the detriment of the game. And in Requiem the non-sexual angle was removed, probably to cater to those who liked the eroticism angle of ambulatory homophagic corpses. But I'm not a big Req fan anyway or that style of play.

[Rasumichin]

The feeding on PC problem appears as soon as you take a run out of the urban surroundings and have to lie low in the wild for more than a few days. Or if you get locked up with the Vamp in a container, being smuggled from Sprawl A to Sprawl B. And that's assuming an Infected you cannot recognise at first sight.

Dietary Requirement doesn't work nearly as fast as that.
The hemovore bit could become a problem here, of course.
But these situations are extremely limited.
Now, assuming that the group gets smuggled in a container (how often does stuff like that come up in games?) and it actually takes weeks, not days ("hey, let's get smuggled to Australia in a container, why not?"), without the group being able to stock up on food supplies beforehand, the group is hosed, vampire included or not.

Would you want to spend a week long travel in a container with an Infected?

Me? No, but i wouldn't want to spend it with a bunch of criminals for hire either.
Frankly, even a typical SR character is about the last person i'd ever want to meet IRL.
Assuming "me" refers to a potential PC (read : cybernetically enhanced killing machines that can insta-kill you with bare hands, people who can make your head explode with their thoughts and so on), things would look different.
Depends on the kind of infection, of course.
If it's "Contact Vector, let's just ignore the inevitable zombie apocalypse" (or the even more retarded SR3 equivalent "Pestilence, let's ignore the inevitable zombie apocalyppse, unless you're a PC and for equally miraculous and unexplained reasons don't have Pestilence"), then the answer is obviously no.
If it's Injection Vector only, an infertile infected or a vampire, why not?
I sleep with one eye open anyway, being a near-paranoid professional criminal used to lethal violence.

A proper wendigo would make you eat Edward. And then eat you. Not something you'd want to have on your team, eh?

No, probably not.
Things look different with the improper version, though.
I admit that doubts about how necessary these retcons where are justified.
After all, RC didn't include player mutaqua or any of the new Strain II expressions from RW either. So one could argue whether wendigo should have gone in there along with the rest.
I personally approve of having all these templates to make NPC or do some theoretical minmaxing. I'd also love to have a writeup for mutaqua, gnawers and especially grendels (which make up for good opposition in a subterranian environment with their specific brand of Animal Control).
More fun for me to work with than "just make up appropriate stats".
But actual player interest so far seems limited mostly to ghouls and nosferatu, with the occassional vampire thrown in for good measure.

[hermit]

If I misinterpreted what you meant hermit, I'm sorry, but I didn't see how homoeroticism specifically applies to the discussion. I think people's attempts to overly romanticize vampires (as either gay or straight) is mildly annoying, and that archetype just doesn't fit SR Infected. If people want to explore the romantic angle of vampire -- "romantic" in any context of the word, from Byronian drama to erotica -- there are games for that (Vampire: the Masquerade and its Requiem clone included, to a limited extent), but SR isn't the game for that. You can retool it so it is, I guess... but why the heck do that?

Yes, that is precisely my point. If you want to play the romantic children of the night with an inflated libido and vore fetish tendencies, VtM is for you. Not SR. But yes, maybe judging all VtM players over those I know is unfair. Just,the oversexualised Vampire is a staple of fiction. Vampires purely as monsters are very rare these days.

And I could just as well have made a snide remark about Vampire Lesbians From Outer Space. I just had, when writing this, my own VtM experiences (basically gay porn for a female audience) and the previous quote in mind. Mind you, there also is more than enough heterosexual vampire porn and romance to go.

Overall, I fully agree with you there.

But the people I played with were much more likely to turn Masq into some sort of asinine crossover combat-gumby bloodbath that would likely make even the most hardcore of you SR fans

Believe it or not, when the ladyboys were not fucking each other, they were like this. Yay for grautitious anime violence.

the developers nailed home the unromantic angle of Kindred repeatedly in the sourcebooks. For instance, the undead were naturally sexually impotent and could only simulate sexual functions by tapping into their hard-earned blood reserves. (So doing the Casanova thing to feed from someone means that you have to blow blood points to get an erection or to create vaginal lubrication, which reduces the benefit you get from feeding because you have to replace the blood you just spent!)

Huh. Now, I never spent much time reading the sourcebooks, but ... that is the first time I read this. I am not saying I disbelieve you, it's just ... that isn't Vampire as I know it. At. All.

The desire for blood replaces the sex drive and romantic urges; the more attractive someone was to a vampire, the more the leech desired to eat the object of his affections; there were exceptions to this rule, the truly humane that could feel love apart from hunger, but it was damned rare and the desire to feed never went away. Underneath the glam and eternal beauty pitches, being a vampire sucked pretty hard (pun intended), and the books -- especially Revised -- emphasized this.

Huh. Still makes for some Angst, but it's at least not the sparklestorm common vampire (porn)stories usually presents.

Of course, many groups simply glossed over the asexuality of Kindred in Masq, often to the detriment of the game. And in Requiem the non-sexual angle was removed, probably to cater to those who liked the eroticism angle of ambulatory homophagic corpses. But I'm not a big Req fan anyway or that style of play.

Not entirely certain, but they might have played Requiem ...

Okay, I see your point. Obviously, I am a bit prejudiced about V:tM, taking how I always saw it layed as how it was intended to be. Still, I hope you understand why this kind of vampire play isn't anything I want to see added to SR.

---

Dietary Requirement doesn't work nearly as fast as that.

Once a day, isn't it? Otherwise, the vampire is HUNGRY. And I was only referring to hemovore; not to essence drain, which isn't much an issue in those scnearios, I agree.

Now, assuming that the group gets smuggled in a container (how often does stuff like that come up in games?) and it actually takes weeks, not days ("hey, let's get smuggled to Australia in a container, why not?"), without the group being able to stock up on food supplies beforehand, the group is hosed, vampire included or not.

Yeah, well, this happens in more adventures than you'd think; there are several official and semiofficial ones (IIRC Schockwellen has such a scene, and a few of the other adventures from WuWe magazine) and it isn't that unpopular among GMs. But take another scenario that doesn't lend itself well to hunting children of the blargh, like being with a band of rebels in the Amazon, doing a smuggling run up the Rockies, or bracing the Sahara or Taiga searching for a MacGuffin, and you're fucked.

The stocking up on food will happen, of course, but unless the character is outed as a vampire, why bring human blood in large 2 liter bottles? Oh, and human blood clogs and rots, you cannot just transport it as some kind of MRE. It's about as susceptible to decay as raw minced meat. Yum, if you're going to the desert ...

Me? No, but i wouldn't want to spend it with a bunch of criminals for hire either.
Frankly, even a typical SR character is about the last person i'd ever want to meet IRL.
Assuming "me" refers to a potential PC (read : cybernetically enhanced killing machines that can insta-kill you with bare hands, people who can make your head explode with their thoughts and so on), things would look different.
Depends on the kind of infection, of course.
If it's "Contact Vector, let's just ignore the inevitable zombie apocalypse" (or the even more retarded SR3 equivalent "Pestilence, let's ignore the inevitable zombie apocalyppse, unless you're a PC and for equally miraculous and unexplained reasons don't have Pestilence"), then the answer is obviously no.
If it's Injection Vector only, an infertile infected or a vampire, why not?
I sleep with one eye open anyway, being a near-paranoid professional criminal used to lethal violence.

This was badly put. Of course I meant one of your PC, not yourself.

The point being, could you trust a vampire not to fall into a feeding frenzy if you're wounded and require treatment, or just to keep back and not suck your soul out because it feels like it. Most runners will not shoot each other except for rather rare circumstances, because they want to stay in business and as such have to maintain a certain reputation for being possible to work with. Most runners act in a way a normal runner can understand. An Infected? Not so much. Why trust it?

No, probably not.
Things look different with the improper version, though.
I admit that doubts about how necessary these retcons where are justified.
After all, RC didn't include player mutaqua or any of the new Strain II expressions from RW either. So one could argue whether wendigo should have gone in there along with the rest.
I personally approve of having all these templates to make NPC or do some theoretical minmaxing. I'd also love to have a writeup for mutaqua, gnawers and especially grendels (which make up for good opposition in a subterranian environment with their specific brand of Animal Control).
More fun for me to work with than "just make up appropriate stats".
But actual player interest so far seems limited mostly to ghouls and nosferatu, with the occassional vampire thrown in for good measure.

Patrick's stuff from RW is sufficient for creating NPC. I don't see the nescessity for chargen rules for building NPC anyway. And I loath the retcon bonanza that is the RC infected rules (the miraculous noninfectiousness of PC ghouls in SR3 was equally inane) just to streamline them for PCness. Especially with the wendigo, where they tossed the core concept out. It's like making a Vampire not a hemovore anymore, but subsisting entirely on sex, or something equally inane.

[The Monk]

Once a day, isn't it? Otherwise, the vampire is HUNGRY. And I was only referring to hemovore; not to essence drain, which isn't much an issue in those scnearios, I agree.


Yeah, well, this happens in more adventures than you'd think; there are several official and semiofficial ones (IIRC Schockwellen has such a scene, and a few of the other adventures from WuWe magazine) and it isn't that unpopular among GMs. But take another scenario that doesn't lend itself well to hunting children of the blargh, like being with a band of rebels in the Amazon, doing a smuggling run up the Rockies, or bracing the Sahara or Taiga searching for a MacGuffin, and you're fucked.

The stocking up on food will happen, of course, but unless the character is outed as a vampire, why bring human blood in large 2 liter bottles? Oh, and human blood clogs and rots, you cannot just transport it as some kind of MRE. It's about as susceptible to decay as raw minced meat. Yum, if you're going to the desert ...


This was badly put. Of course I meant one of your PC, not yourself.

The point being, could you trust a vampire not to fall into a feeding frenzy if you're wounded and require treatment, or just to keep back and not suck your soul out because it feels like it. Most runners will not shoot each other except for rather rare circumstances, because they want to stay in business and as such have to maintain a certain reputation for being possible to work with. Most runners act in a way a normal runner can understand. An Infected? Not so much. Why trust it?

Do vampires in SR go into a frenzy if they are hungry? If anyone's stuck in a container without food they would be hungry as well, doesn't mean they'll eat the person sitting to their left in a hungry frenzy.

[hermit]

Do vampires in SR go into a frenzy if they are hungry? If anyone's stuck in a container without food they would be hungry as well, doesn't mean they'll eat the person sitting to their left in a hungry frenzy.

They certainly do when heir essence is very low. Not sure about blood. It would make sense, but it would also make sense for them to smell like the carnivores they are ...

[The Monk]

They certainly do when heir essence is very low. Not sure about blood. It would make sense, but it would also make sense for them to smell like the carnivores they are ...

Since they're dependent on blending in amongst their prey to hunt effectively, wouldn't it also make sense that they have developed some sort of biology that eliminates that smell, or even something that makes them more attractive to prey?

[hermit]

Since they're dependent on blending in amongst their prey to hunt effectively, wouldn't it also make sense that they have developed some sort of biology that eliminates that smell, or even something that makes them more attractive to prey?

Like Ghouls, Wendigos (which stink according to a Co-Creator), DzooNooQua or any other Infected? Apart from maybe Banshees, the Vamps are about the only nonsmelly Infected.

Besides, what do they need to blend in for? They have mist form and are very hard to kill. They can just jump people and overpower them.

Sparkles, I tell you.

[Sengir]

The retcon makes eating blood on a daily basis a nescessity,

By RAW, the Dientary Requirement(x) weakness only requires someone to eat 5% of his weight in X per week. But vampires cannot hold down any other food except blood, so what do they eat the rest of the time? Or do they merely subsist on MAGIC™? The latter does not really satisfy me, which is why I consider the limitation on blood and only blood really odd.

And since you are still repeating it, this is what RC has to say on wendigos: Wendigo engage in the most extensive ritual cannibalism of all the Infected documented to date, and their transformation very often results in the triggering of latent magical talents.. To top it off they have the Influence power, which is a serious problem for anybody who thinks he can just go ahead and shoot a wendigo - chances are the wendigo will have more hits on a Charisma + Magic roll than the target's Willpower roll (no counterspelling since it's not a spell), and unless somebody tells the poor guy "hey, eating people is wrong" the wendigo has a new loyal servant.

[hermit]

By RAW, the Dientary Requirement(x) weakness only requires someone to eat 5% of his weight in X per week. But vampires cannot hold down any other food except blood, so what do they eat the rest of the time? Or do they merely subsist on MAGIC™? The latter does not really satisfy me, which is why I consider the limitation on blood and only blood really odd.

An average vampire weighs 75 kilograms. That averages 3,75 kg of blood, equaling 3,75 liters. Minimum requirement. Is a vamp gonna be happy with a growling stomach? I thnk not, so he may drink more. Vamps don't gain fat, presumably, being the beautiful children of the night, therefore that too just vanishes, I guess. I doubt Vampires shit much. Too unsparkly.

And since you are still repeating it, this is what RC has to say on wendigos: Wendigo engage in the most extensive ritual cannibalism of all the Infected documented to date, and their transformation very often results in the triggering of latent magical talents.. To top it off they have the Influence power, which is a serious problem for anybody who thinks he can just go ahead and shoot a wendigo - chances are the wendigo will have more hits on a Charisma + Magic roll than the target's Willpower roll (no counterspelling since it's not a spell), and unless somebody tells the poor guy "hey, eating people is wrong" the wendigo has a new loyal servant.

Yeah. So? Which PC will actually engage in this? It was a nescessity before. Now, it is an option, and every last PC wendigo is gonna be the Drizzt do'Urden of Wendigos, the rare L/G type, just because wow, it puts a stereotype on it's head and the player can feel oh so angsty and persecuted wrongly.

This is bad news for an NPC wendigo, since they just became a whole lot more nasty (how many people can they keep under thier influence at a time? unlimited? Wendigo cannibal apocalypse?), but for PC wendigos, nah. Never gonna happen, if only because there, metagaming will win.

So, it is both a cheap cop-out for PC wendigos and a possible major design flaw, all in one. this is even worse than I thought.

[HappyDaze]

Yes, that is precisely my point. If you want to play the romantic children of the night with an inflated libido and vore fetish tendencies, VtM is for you. Not SR.

Glad to see that you know the one true way to play Shadowrun. Glad you can preach it without being insulting to those that have other tastes too.

[hermit]

Glad to see that you know the one true way to play Shadowrun. Glad you can preach it without being insulting to those that have other tastes too.

Glad you can read larger blocks of text. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yes, I maintain that vor vampire fantasies of all sorts, including the wildly popular vampire angst goth porn of any sexual persuasion, Vampire is a whole lot better suited (being a game centering around, basically, vampire fantasies of any kind with a slight slant towards the porn in Requiem, apparently) than shadowrun, a game centering around the idea of mercenary agents, terrorists and petty and not so petty crime.

Is that now understandable?

[The Monk]

Glad you can read larger blocks of text. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yes, I maintain that vor vampire fantasies of all sorts, including the wildly popular vampire angst goth porn of any sexual persuasion, Vampire is a whole lot better suited (being a game centering around, basically, vampire fantasies of any kind with a slight slant towards the porn in Requiem, apparently) than shadowrun, a game centering around the idea of mercenary agents, terrorists and petty and not so petty crime.

Is that now understandable?

I had a free spirit of man in my game, I didn't break out RC to make a free spirit character. You can have vampire bad guys in your games, you don't have to make them from RC.

All of those variants are for people who want to throw a twist into their games. I like that there are rules in RW if I want to throw in a bad guy in my game, and another for the same thing if I want to let a player play one of those critters. It's just more tools for the GM to use. What's wrong with that?

[HappyDaze]

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I simply don't agree with you. While playing Vampire might be better for a group that's all into that sort of thing and enjoys greater vampire societies, it may be that only one (or a small portion) of the group likes vampires. In this case, Shadowrun allows for such play while not making everyone else in the group dive in fangs-deep. This is especially true if the vampire in question is more into "the idea of mercenary agents, terrorists and petty and not so petty crime" just done as a vampire ,as opposed to whatever you refer to as vampire porn. I'm sad for you that such a middle ground between genres cannot be found - especially with Shadowrun which is built on combining two genres (magic, of which vampires have, and cyberpunk which vampires parallel the dark side of the tech with the loss of their humanity through HMHVV).

[I Hate All Life]

Huh. Now, I never spent much time reading the sourcebooks, but ... that is the first time I read this. I am not saying I disbelieve you, it's just ... that isn't Vampire as I know it. At. All.

I can quote page numbers and whatnot, but I don't think that's necessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In the core V:tM Revised rulebook, it states a Kindred must spend a number of blood points equal to 8 - Humanity to simulate any lifelike function, including sexual activity but also warm skin, heartbeat, etc. Which means the lower a vampire's Humanity, the more blood he has to spend to pass convincingly among the living. This means vampires at Humanity 8 or above can get erections and warm breath and whatnot "free of charge"... but it is a conscious act of will, and isn't automatic. Less than 5% of vampires manage to get their Humanity that high, and that's a fairly generous estimate. And vampires following Paths of Enlightenment (alien forms of morality that don't care about Humanity) can't simulate lifelike functions at all.

And you said these orgiastic vamps were combat monkeys as well? Yeah, that's not very conducive to Humanity. But I'm willing to bet bottom dollar they and their Storyteller had no idea what to do with a Vampire book. I've met plenty like that myself.

Okay, I see your point. Obviously, I am a bit prejudiced about V:tM, taking how I always saw it layed as how it was intended to be. Still, I hope you understand why this kind of vampire play isn't anything I want to see added to SR.

Vampire may not be your thing, hey, but don't let those knuckleheads sour you on the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And agreed... if I wanted Vampire I'd play, oh I dunno, Vampire. I'd hesitate to call people that want to recreate the V:tMasq/Req experience in Shadowrun stupid... but one may as well strip the tech out of SR and play it like D&D. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to reinvent the wheel. If you want to do something, and there are games out there that fit the bill, why not play those? Why use a wrench as a hammer when you can use a hammer as a hammer? *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

If you're going to play an Infected in SR, I say, at least respect the setting enough to play them as written; enjoy the experience of playing a forlorn Essence-eating hemovore instead of some pastiche from a movie or another game. IMO. Masq is great and Twilight is just dandy, but their protagonists belong in the SR setting about as much as drow elves and Klingons.

[MJBurrage]

The question of hemovore eating habits came up earlier, and made me curious.

Estimates for the calorie content of blood vary—640 C/kg, 800 C/kg & 1,600 C/kg—with the lower end seeming better reasoned; so I'll go with the 800 C/kg for this calculation.

The average vampire needs 4 kg of blood per week, so from a mundane point of view, around 460 calories per day. Either their metabolism is very efficient or it's magically enhanced.

[Megu]

The question of hemovore eating habits came up earlier, and made me curious.

Estimates for the calorie content of blood vary—640 C/kg, 800 C/kg & 1,600 C/kg—with the lower end seeming better reasoned; so I'll go with the 800 C/kg for this calculation.

The average vampire needs 4 kg of blood per week, so from a mundane point of view, around 460 calories per day. Either their metabolism is very efficient or it's magically enhanced.

I figure that's just the dietary requirement, not their requirement for total calorie intake. They're probably filling out the rest with pig's blood or flat Sprite or something.