Stealing Cars vs. Running Runs, The age old 'debate' of profitability Options

[Karoline]

Just because I didn't want an innocent request for average pay of a runner to turn into yet another 'debate' about how difficult it is to steal a car (which is what it always seems to come down to)

So, I'll start us off:
I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.

On the other hand, I don't think that 300ish vehicles a year is that hard to pull off (I mean really, stealing a car takes all of like 30 seconds, then getting it to whereever you are going to store it till you can sell it). Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run. If the runners are too incompetent to steal some vehicles without getting caught, they're too incompetent to pull off a run.

[StealthSigma]

I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.

I disagree. The very act of fencing means the product being sold is stolen and would be acknowledged as such. Look up the word, every definition supports that. If street cost modifiers were meant to apply they wouldn't title it as fencing goods but rather selling goods. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the 70% reduction is already embedding the 20% reduction from the good being stolen. Otherwise you're essentially applying the stolen modifier twice.

[Kagetenshi]

Also, the parts market is probably impossible to flood with stolen goods, putting a generous lower bound on how far the price can drop.

~J

[Karoline]

So you're saying that it is impossible to sell non-stolen goods then, yes? Because SR doesn't have any rules for 'selling' goods, and you're rather adamant about only doing what is explicitly spelled out in the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just because I didn't want an innocent request for average pay of a runner to turn into yet another 'debate' about how difficult it is to steal a car (which is what it always seems to come down to)

So, I'll start us off:
I do have to agree about the situation modifiers adjusting the amount you can fence something for. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to buy a stolen vehicle from you for less than they would buy a non-stolen vehicle. And it is equally obvious that if prices currently suck because the market is flooded with vehicles, that you aren't going to get 30% of the 'blue book' value since the fencer won't be able to ever move it.

On the other hand, I don't think that 300ish vehicles a year is that hard to pull off (I mean really, stealing a car takes all of like 30 seconds, then getting it to whereever you are going to store it till you can sell it). Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run. If the runners are too incompetent to steal some vehicles without getting caught, they're too incompetent to pull off a run.

There is a vast difference between stealing a "Few" vehicles, once in a while, and stealing 300+ cars a year, year in and year out... Do the latter and people will begin to take notice and they will catch you eventually...

Keep the Faith

[Method]

It's not just about the dollar values. The entire debate is moot without some discussion about risk/benefit analysis. The simple fact is that a corp facility with even a single armed guard or drone is almost certain to entail more risk than stealing a car (or fleecing commlinks or hacking home nodes to steal drones etc etc). Even if stealing cars pays marginally less than a run the greatly decreased risk might make it more appealing.

And I would point out that noone is arguing that GTSR *should* pay more than running. The while point is you have to pay your runners enough to make it worth their efforts. The fact is that any character with the skills required to be a runner could easily make money doing any number of other activites that entail less risk.

[Karoline]

There is a vast difference between stealing a "Few" vehicles, once in a while, and stealing 300+ cars a year, year in and year out... Do the latter and people will begin to take notice and they will catch you eventually...

Keep the Faith

There is also a vast difference between stealing a car a day and breaking into a high security corporate enclave to steal their multi-billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) project. Do the latter and people will take serious notice instantly and expend huge efforts to catch you immediately. It isn't that carjacking doesn't contain risks, it is that those risks are absolutely laughable compared to running.

It's like comparing the risk of being an office worker and maybe getting a paper cut to being a human target on a rifle range for snipers.

[StealthSigma]

So you're saying that it is impossible to sell non-stolen goods then, yes? Because SR doesn't have any rules for 'selling' goods, and you're rather adamant about only doing what is explicitly spelled out in the rules.

Negative. The rules for fencing can be used to sell non-stolen goods, but since it's titled fencing and doesn't say to use street market modifiers then the logical assumption is that all goods are treated as stolen and used for the purpose of fencing. The asking price originates from the players, not the GM. This is the reason why street cost modifiers don't apply. The players are and should be free to place whatever asking price they damn well please. In reality the 30% figure about the max price a player could -hope- to get for a sold good considering that the good is likely to be sold in the black market and the black marketeer will want profit from the transaction. The GM is perfectly within his right to refuse the good to be sold if current market trends would dictate that the street cost is below what the players are asking or the person buying would be unable to extract much profit from the transaction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I disagree. The very act of fencing means the product being sold is stolen and would be acknowledged as such. Look up the word, every definition supports that. If street cost modifiers were meant to apply they wouldn't title it as fencing goods but rather selling goods. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the 70% reduction is already embedding the 20% reduction from the good being stolen. Otherwise you're essentially applying the stolen modifier twice.

I'll Bite...

I have just discovered a vintage "whatever" that my family has had for however many years... unfortunately, it is a restricted/forbidden item now, and I cannot just go out and sell it because I do not have a livense for it, nor can i get a license for it...

I have 2 choices... sit on it and hope that at some point I can offload it for its value... or take it to teh night market in Hong Kong and fence it... in this case, it is not a stolen item, so would not be subject to that "Stolen Item" fee as I can prove that it is an heirloom piece that belongs to my family... so negotiations start, and Since it is

1. Not Stolen
2. Not Counterfeit
3. Not been used in a Crime
4. No Price war exists (it is a rare vintage piece remember)
5. and No Flooded Market (Rare)
I would suffer no penalties for those categories...

However, It is:
1. Used (it is old after all)
2. and the Market is Dry

Which nets no modifiers... Now, all things being equal, my starting negotiation value is 30%... I want 50%, so I will lose dice and tehn negotiate... hopefully I am a skilled negotiator...

That is why I believe that the Modifiers should apply...

A Vehicle Example may follow the same lines... and at at some point you may swing the other way...
You may have a high end Vehicle, where the Market is dry with monopolized channels, and there is a Police Crackdown on this particular vehicle, even though it is stolen, used, and was used in a Crime under investigation... total Net adjustment would be (-50% + 90%), so +40% to the base asking price before negotiations ever even started...

It just makes sense...

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

Two problems with this whole thing:

The fencing rules are overly generous to improve playability the sale price on stolen goods should be a few percentage points of the whole not double digit.

AND:

People always feel the need to low ball your their runners and keep them poor. These are people doing high risk jobs for money, they should be well compensated accordingly.

That's my take on the "great debate" pay your runners more, it's a game played to have fun, no reason to low ball, if they start to get too far ahead start to attrition their gear when they screw up.

[Blade]

A thing to take into account with the runs is the protection Mr. J offers.

Stealing a billion nuyens prototype will draw heat, but as soon as it's in the hands of Mr. Johnson, it's all over: the victim has no reason to spend money to look for you.
When you steal cars, the cops will still look for you after the cars have been sold.

[BlueMax]

Also, the parts market is probably impossible to flood with stolen goods, putting a generous lower bound on how far the price can drop.

~J

Where I live, there is a flood of stolen Catalytic Converters. The local PDs have gotten to the point of warning people when said flood is lowering.

$300(fenced) for 15 minutes of work? Not to shabby
$50 (fenced) for 15 minutes of work? screw that

BlueMax

[MJBurrage]

Shadowrun—like any game—does not have rules for everything. It has rules focused running more than street crime.

IMHO this means that whenever one looks at aspects of the world outside of Shadowrunning, one has to except that there are gaps in the rules.

If stealing cars, and getting away with it, was as easy as many claim than car theft would be a major part of the game world. Since it's not, and the actual stealing is well covered by the rules, it stands to reason that the getting away with it is one of those things that falls under GM purview.

I.E. if the players are stealing enough to live on, then they are cutting into someones turf. If the players want that to become the focus of the game, than more power to them.

As to the value of a stolen car, the game says you get 30% of the value for fenced goods. Further a used item is only worth 80% of a new one. so just based on that, a stolen car is worth 10–20% of list price depending on how you stack the multipliers.

Furthermore, if my players want to play a game focused on theft over running then I would use my book granted GM fiat to rule that Fencing Gear does stack with the Street Costs since this gives values much more in line with what is know about real world prices for stolen goods.

Since there would already be a gang/syndicate working the player's target goods the market is now flooded on top of the items being stolen and used. So 30% of 50% = 15% of list price. Furthermore, if they keep it up, a price war develops and the net drops to 30% of 40% = 12%.

This drop in return is why the players are now at war with whomever controlled such thefts before the players started.

Again, if the players and GM have fun with this than great.

Otherwise go back to running and realize that car theft (or whatever) only seemed easier (for the same net profit) because the game does not cover the reasonable consequences of most non-running ways of making a living.

In the end saying "why not steal cars" is no different than "why not get a job". Runners are runers, the game does not have—or need—rules for the complications of other professions.

[MJBurrage]

The fencing rules are overly generous to improve playability the sale price on stolen goods should be a few percentage points of the whole not double digit.

Really, this is the core of the issue. Its a game about running so the fencing rules are very simple, and give a good return to improve playability for runners.

If it becomes a game about robbing, then it needs much more detailed tables on the values of stolen goods, and realistically much lower returns as well.

[svenftw]

Similarly I think the argument that a crime syndicate or KE are going to crack down on you is utter bull because you're risking way more than that doing a run.

Sure, but what you're forgetting is that Shadowruns are very rarely the same crime twice. You're looking at different settings, goals, motivations, modus operandi, etc. There's just no way to dragnet that activity without declaring marshal law.

A rash of car thefts, however - especially when perpetrated by the same group over and over - is much easier to crack down on. I'd let my group get to 10 before Knight Errant took notice, and by 20 they would have to defeat some manner of countermeasure on virtually every theft. Eventually they'd have to face off with an undercover officer and either escape or enter into violence and at that point their threat level would elevate dramatically.

There are consequences for running the shadows as well, of course. But it's a poor (and doomed) running team that only does one type of job over and over again. And obviously if your group genuinely wants to play Grand Theft Auto: Emerald City then more power to them, I'm just saying that the answer isn't as easy as "stealing cars = ATM machine."

[StealthSigma]

Where I live, there is a flood of stolen Catalytic Converters. The local PDs have gotten to the point of warning people when said flood is lowering.

$300(fenced) for 15 minutes of work? Not to shabby
$50 (fenced) for 15 minutes of work? screw that

BlueMax

That's essentially what it comes down to. The only way stealing cars is going to be more profitable is when you're going after luxury/sports cars. Stealing cars may -supplement- income from runs, but it won't be good enough to choose instead of runs unless/until you get to the stage where you're jacking luxury/sports cars at a ludicrous rate. The car's book value probably needs to be over 35,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to make stealing the car more profitable than accepting a run and you would need to steal multiple 35,000+ cars in order to accrue more income via stealing than the run.

That is the crux of why I don't feel it's necessary to apply the street price modifiers on top of the 70% reduction for fencing. Economically it's already inferior and if you put too many modifiers on it you're essentially going to hit a situation where if you drop a vehicle in the lap of your runners to sell, it might just be more fun/valuable for them to blow the thing up than to go through the effort of finding someone to sell it to.

[Karoline]

Stealing a billion nuyens prototype will draw heat, but as soon as it's in the hands of Mr. Johnson, it's all over: the victim has no reason to spend money to look for you.
When you steal cars, the cops will still look for you after the cars have been sold.

Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

[hermit]

People always feel the need to low ball your their runners and keep them poor. These are people doing high risk jobs for money, they should be well compensated accordingly.

That's because apparently pretty much nobody ever read more than the first three chapters of Neuromancer before heading off and deciding to know what a true shadowrunner is like. They take down-and-out junkie and former netrunner Case as the stereotypical runner and assume the ship money he makes and the shit life he leads is true cyberpunk. Had they read on, they'd have notivced that all operations in the Neuromancer trilogy that qualify as a Run are extremly high profile (board a space station, blow up a space station, hack a government AI, extract a star scientist from a high security facility defended with tactical nukes, put fear inducing drugs ito an arcology's water supply and inform the cops you put in psychosis inducing drugs, so they gun down the people fleeing the arcology as a cover up for a datasteal ...). The extraction - pretty much the closest thing to a shadowrun Gibson ever wrote - involves a team of 20 people, including a mobile shadow clinic, a fighter jet, everyone carrying laser rifles and the facility being defended by a Blimp mounting tactical nukes (which are used, too), aside from a small army, several spysats and other fun suff. That is not low budget run at all. The character doing this is paid something in the two digit millions for one run! (Case is paid more abstractly, though he also receives a settled for life payment.) Just to put the whole "but paying more than 5K isn't true Cyberpunk at all" into perspective.

Back to more practical matters.

20K to 40K per job is acceptable for beginner to med-level characters, or 2,5K a day minimum pay for longer engagements. Higher level characters should work for at least 20K for easy jobs, and common payment should be around 65K to 100K.

Of course, that brings a plethora of problems with SR4's ultra-cheap gear. Until War!'s out, one might need to houserule matrix and other equipment up to level 12 (exponentially increasing cost). I'd also recommend SINs of levels up to 12 again, becauser they'd actually be viable that way. And wham, you have plenty of things for your PCs to waste all that money on again.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's because apparently pretty much nobody ever read more than the first three chapters of Neuromancer before heading off and deciding to know what a true shadowrunner is like. Tehy take down-and-out junkie and former netrunner Chase as the stereotypical runner and assume the ship money he makes and the shit life he leads is true cyberpunk. Had they read on, they'd have notivced that all operations in the Neuromancer trilogy that qualify as a Run are extremly high profile. The extraction - pretty much the closest thing to a shadowrun Gibson ever wrote - involves a team of 20 people, including a mobile shadow clinic, a fighter jet, everyone carrying laser rifles and the facility being defended by a Blimp mounting tactical nukes (which are used, too). That is not low budget run. The character doing this is paid something in the two digit millions for one run! Just to put the whole "but paying more than 5K isn't true Cyberpunk at all" into perspective.

30K to 50K per job is acceptable, or 4K a day monimum pay for longer engagements.

Of course, that brings a plethora of problems with SR4's ultra-cheap gear. Until War!'s out, one might need to houserule matrix and other equipment up to level 12 (exponentially increasing cost). I'd also recommend SINs of levels up to 12 again, becauser they'd actually be viable that way. And wham, you have plenty of things for your PCs to waste all that money on again.

I have more than enough things to waste money on without adding additional inflation to the game.
Thank you but no...

[MJBurrage]

Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

It is a caveat of the game world that the power players all want deniable assets (i.e. shadowrunners) and so once the job is over they don't hunt you down. In fact—as unrealistic as it is in real life—the former target may be the next Johnson, and the run could be against the first company. Too much back and forth with the same runners may break suspension of disbelief; however the fact that companies do not generally go after runners is just part of the world.

On the other hand, the mob/yaks/etc. coming after anyone cutting in their action is part of the game world. So switching from running to stealing (subtle distinction though it may be) invites war with whichever syndicate.

[Kagetenshi]

Runners are runers, the game does not have—or need—rules for the complications of other professions.

Except rockers.

(It also has rules for the complications of journalism, but it doesn't need those.)

~J

[hermit]

On the other hand, the mob/yaks/etc. coming after anyone cutting in their action is part of the game world. So switching from running to stealing (subtle distinction though it may be) invites war with whichever syndicate.

Because it is totally unfeasible that the mob would let you do your business if you just give them a share. say, 25%, if you can prove you could hurt them badly if they get greedy. Depends on the mobster, naturally, but for the most part, they would IMO not decline a business opportunity.

I have more than enough things to waste money on without adding additional inflation to the game.
Thank you but no...

Like?

Besides, matrix stuff and SINs going up to 12 would both make hackers feasible in competition with mancers again, provide decent security against common code kiddos with a 5K budget link, and make SINs last more than around 4 checks before uncovered according to current rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because it is totally unfeasible that the mob would let you do your business if you just give them a share. say, 25%, if you can prove you could hurt them badly if they get greedy. Depends on the mobster, naturally, but for the most part, they would IMO not decline a business opportunity.


Like?

Besides, matrix stuff and SINs going up to 12 would both make hackers feasible in competition with mancers again, provide decent security against common code kiddos with a 5K budget link, and make SINs last more than around 4 checks before uncovered according to current rules.

Hmmmmm... My Sin's tend to last a lot longer than 4 checks for me at least... your mileage may indeed vary of course...
though I do have a significant investment in SIN's, as I tend to change them once they may have been potentially compromised, whether or not there is proof that they have been...

Hell, a SINGLE drone can cost well over a hundred thousand Nuyen, by itself... JUST ONE...

There are vehicles that cost well over 100,000 Nuyen that I would truly like to have; I have saved up enough for at least one (A Fed-Boeing Commuter), though there are definitely others I would like to acquire....

I sometimes spend multiple tens of thousands of Nuyen working a contact (or multiple contacts), and keeping him/her/them happy (gotta maintain those Contacts you know)...

I would really like to kit myself out in Delta Grade Cyber at somepoint... maybe even recover a little of the Essence Hole eventually... the fact that I have passed through Alpha Grade to Beta Grades was not Cheap in the least...

Replacement of things that get blown up or otherwise rendered unuseable is an ongoing expense that never goes away... and even having top of the line matrix hardware/software does not guarantee success in the matrix...

Not to mention expending money on favors for services/material that are hard to come...

List could probably go on for quite a while, especially if you started to break down some of the expenses into more individualized sub-expenses...

Yes, Matrix hardware/Software is easy to come by, but you can exceed the caps of 6 already, and those things cannot generally be "bought"... Hardware and SOftware above 6 exists in Canon, and is, in my opinion, failry common for some of those things... Banks would have higher than 6 ratings on their hardware, as would most, if not all, military locations of any import... the same goes withSoftware...

Just because something is not commonly available does not mean it does not exist... oftentimes, such things cost more than just money to acquire...

Keep the Faith

[Dumori]

Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

In fact any group that tracks you down will likey try and hire you. To double cross your original employer or to retire what you took. In Shadowrun runners are deniable assets and a fact of corprate life. Corps aren't likely to spend a packet to kill you when spendtign the same amount to hire your would make them more money. As long as you don;t only take jobs vs on corp or such and are not beony working against those that hired you then you aren't worth killing most of the time. It might hurt your rep a bit to cross a J if you got a better offer but thats the J's fault for not paying you as much. As with any how the game world works statements YMMV and such.

[darthmord]

Why would the heat drop off of you when you pass on the prototype and not when you sell the car? In both cases the offended party no longer has the chance to recover what was taken from you, and in both cases a big incentive is to put someone who does illegal things behind bars. If anything, the corp that you stole from has more reason to continue chasing you than the cops do for stealing a car, because the corp may want to send a message of 'don't mess with us or we will hunt you down' which increases the cost of runs against that company which means other companies will have to fork up more cash which means the runs will be less likely to happen.

Because you are a paid agent (temporary at that) of the organzation that orchestrated the theft. You were the hand that held the sword. You aren't the body.

That said, if the offended corp got you, they may do something bad to you. They may not. It really depends if you delivered the goods. If so, then they have one set of options. If you didn't make the drop, then they have an entirely different set of options.

Hell, make the drop and they may want to you steal it back for them (since you already know 'who' has it).