Shadowrun package to be added to Lone Wolf's Hero Lab, Making character creation and game management easier Options

[DireRadiant]

Getting off the debate back to the Hero Labs package: Jason, the presser says the package will cover the core game system, and then be expanded.

By Core: Does that mean SR4A, or SR4 original?

Also: Does core include books like Augmentation, Arsenal, etc? Or are those going to be covered by later releases?

From my understanding of the Hero Labs design, that's correct, SR4(A) would be first, and each subsequent source books material is an add on package as it's converted into the app.

[JM Hardy]

From my understanding of the Hero Labs design, that's correct, SR4(A) would be first, and each subsequent source books material is an add on package as it's converted into the app.

This is correct--it will start with SR4A. I'm not sure when Lone Wolf will put the announcement on their website.

Jason H.

[Banaticus]

So, it's still not as good as the free programs that have already come out (like SR4CharGen) that cover books like Street Magic and Runner's Companion. If I was Hero Labs, I wouldn't bother advertising it. Anyone who plays Shadowrun has had the past year or so to go find character generation tools. Anyone completely new to Shadowrun probably won't be enticed by the offer of being able to pay some company to create a character.

Now, if you were to follow WotC's path and release a "lite" character generator that's just a character generator for free (no karma allowed to be spend on the character unless you buy the actual program, all books only available with a paid upgrade otherwise you just get the basic book), then it would directly compete with the character generators that are already out there and would soon become the standard. Buy why would people pay money when the people most likely to pay money already have a free program that's better (that allows you to save/print and email files back and forth). I mean, honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing how this paid thing could be a worse deal than it already is.

[Kid Chameleon]

I got a copy of Hero Lab for a game of M&M a while back, so now I just get to use it more.

[DireRadiant]

So, it's still not as good as the free programs that have already come out (like SR4CharGen) that cover books like Street Magic and Runner's Companion.

I don't use those. I already use Hero Labs. Why should I be forced to do what you want?

[Banaticus]

You're not forced to do anything, that's the whole point.

If they're not releasing something that's at least "as good" as what's already out there, then why would people pay money for something that's not as good as the free thing they already have? After all, nobody's forcing them to use a particular product.

[Samoth]

I'm confused why anyone needs anything more than a blank excel spreadsheet to create characters these days.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm confused why people even need an Excel spreadsheet to create characters. I seem to do okay with a piece of paper and a pencil. (Or just Notepad when fiddling online.)

[Caadium]

I'm confused why anyone needs anything more than a blank excel spreadsheet to create characters these days.

As a GM, having all the characters (PC and NPC) in one easily accesible place can be very handy. While I love the excel sheet over in community projects, it gets cumbersome if you've got multiple open. I've not looked at this particular app, but I've seen other apps where the GM has the main program and therefore access to game notes, all characters, etc, all in one program. Meanwhile, the players have a lite version which is just their character. When you put things together like this it can be handy; especially if you're doing a chat-based game or something.

[Kid Chameleon]

I'm confused why anyone needs anything more than a blank excel spreadsheet to create characters these days.

Purdy pictures and grafix.

[Samoth]

I'm confused why people even need an Excel spreadsheet to create characters. I seem to do okay with a piece of paper and a pencil. (Or just Notepad when fiddling online.)

I used paper for 15 years before switching to a spreadsheet. Much faster, easier to erase, and easier to keep count of numbers.

[otakusensei]

Are each of the books going to be a separate charge for Hero Lab?

[DireRadiant]

You're not forced to do anything, that's the whole point.

If they're not releasing something that's at least "as good" as what's already out there, then why would people pay money for something that's not as good as the free thing they already have? After all, nobody's forcing them to use a particular product.

Why is your choice of not wanting it making it so I can't have it?

[Banaticus]

You already own it -- how is that going to get Catalyst games more money? So, setting you aside, what in this package is so enticing that people will buy it? Why are people going to pay for something that isn't as good as what they can already get for free?

I'm not merely saying that Catalyst games shouldn't have done anything like this, I'm saying that it's not enough (and it's way too late for the little bit they're doing now).

A person making a computer product should program with Windows in mind because of its huge market presence (possibly Apple, based on the target audience, but it's a much smaller possible market). A person making an RPG product should design it with the products that are already available in mind. The general idea when releasing a new product is that you design with what's already out there in mind. You offer something better, something cheaper, something "more" (however you choose to quantify more). If you're not offering more in some way, what's the impetus for the market to choose your product?

It basically seems like Catalyst went with the low ball offer -- whatever was the cheapest way to get something (anything) out the door with the least bit of work involved on their end. I'm supposed to get all excited that something has been released that isn't as good as what I already have and I now have the option of paying for this lesser product? What in there could possibly excite me about this new thing?

[MindandPen]

I used paper for 15 years before switching to a spreadsheet. Much faster, easier to erase, and easier to keep count of numbers.

I have my own home grown access database that I use to keep all the PC's, NPC's and even build mooks out of it. It keeps up with the effective Build Points of each character and can generate a mook within x% of the BP to make it a challenge.

-M&P

[otakusensei]

You already own it -- how is that going to get Catalyst games more money? So, setting you aside, what in this package is so enticing that people will buy it? Why are people going to pay for something that isn't as good as what they can already get for free?

I'm not merely saying that Catalyst games shouldn't have done anything like this, I'm saying that it's not enough (and it's way too late for the little bit they're doing now).

A person making a computer product should program with Windows in mind because of its huge market presence (possibly Apple, based on the target audience, but it's a much smaller possible market). A person making an RPG product should design it with the products that are already available in mind. The general idea when releasing a new product is that you design with what's already out there in mind. You offer something better, something cheaper, something "more" (however you choose to quantify more). If you're not offering more in some way, what's the impetus for the market to choose your product?

It basically seems like Catalyst went with the low ball offer -- whatever was the cheapest way to get something (anything) out the door with the least bit of work involved on their end. I'm supposed to get all excited that something has been released that isn't as good as what I already have and I now have the option of paying for this lesser product? What in there could possibly excite me about this new thing?

I can say from experience that Hero Lab is a more polished experience than the options available for free right now. That is, if the SR module is in line with current products. Whether it's worth it to someone to pay for that polish... it's up you if it's worth it to you.

I will say though that having to purchase a $15-20 module for each book is going to deflate my enthusiasm real quick. Paying $30 for access to a SR4A character generator with all three build options and the core books is a great idea. Having to pay $30 for SR4A with one build option, then an additional $15 for each of the core books... that would sour the deal. We'll see though. It's still a nice addition to the line.

[hermit]

You already own it -- how is that going to get Catalyst games more money? So, setting you aside, what in this package is so enticing that people will buy it? Why are people going to pay for something that isn't as good as what they can already get for free?

Because freeware tends to have clunky interfaces and shit support. Also, he owns it, but will have to pay a dime or two for the Shadowrun expansion app. And for the apps for other books.

That's a working business model, as evident with the iPhone and it's clones.

$15 and respectively $30 are too much, though, if you ask me. I'm unwilling to pay that much.

[MindandPen]

$15 and respectively $30 are too much, though, if you ask me. I'm unwilling to pay that much.

Same here. If the book add-ons are a little more reasonable, then maybe.

-M&P

[Caadium]

If you have to buy the program, then the SR license, and then especially if you have to pay for each additional book, my personal opinion is why bother. How many times does CGL expect me to pay for the same material? Hardcover, PDF, and then again for this? Sorry, no.

If, on the other hand, you buy the product and SR is an option, including the other books as they come out I'd consider it. Depending on price, I'd even consider buying the product then the SR license, but as they expand on it there my license should cover it.

I know some people will agree, and others will disagree. However, I have this thing about not paying for the same product multiple times; even if they dress it differently.

[Kid Chameleon]

Then don't use it. All CGL has done is set up an avenue for those who like Hero Labs to use their software to generate characters.

[DireRadiant]

You already own it -- how is that going to get Catalyst games more money? So, setting you aside, what in this package is so enticing that people will buy it? Why are people going to pay for something that isn't as good as what they can already get for free?

I'm not merely saying that Catalyst games shouldn't have done anything like this, I'm saying that it's not enough (and it's way too late for the little bit they're doing now).

A person making a computer product should program with Windows in mind because of its huge market presence (possibly Apple, based on the target audience, but it's a much smaller possible market). A person making an RPG product should design it with the products that are already available in mind. The general idea when releasing a new product is that you design with what's already out there in mind. You offer something better, something cheaper, something "more" (however you choose to quantify more). If you're not offering more in some way, what's the impetus for the market to choose your product?

It basically seems like Catalyst went with the low ball offer -- whatever was the cheapest way to get something (anything) out the door with the least bit of work involved on their end. I'm supposed to get all excited that something has been released that isn't as good as what I already have and I now have the option of paying for this lesser product? What in there could possibly excite me about this new thing?

You're still saying because you can't think of a reason you should get it, or even why some people shouldn't get it, I shouldn't be able to get it. Why can't i get it? Why am I not allowed to purchase or use it?

[Yerameyahu]

More choice is better. The 'controversy' in this thread is amazing (but no doubt that's only because I'm pretty new here).

[Caadium]

You're still saying because you can't think of a reason you should get it, or even why some people shouldn't get it, I shouldn't be able to get it. Why can't i get it? Why am I not allowed to purchase or use it?

I could be wrong, but I am not reading it as him saying that you should not be allowed to purchase or use it. Rather, I read what he is saying is that it probably won't do very well do to the late approach and that there could have been better options if handled sooner. Just my $0.02 though.

[Enin]

People will want this for two reasons:

1) It will be the "official" product released (may not mean anything to you, but that does entice a LOT of consumers).

2) It will have a much more polished and pretty UI (which again may not mean anything to you, but it makes it much more user friendly).


And why would this stop community projects at all? WotC has their chargen, but there are still plenty of fan made programs and spreadsheets to use. HeroLab is a great product that's functional and easy to use, I have no doubt that they will do well with SR.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have my own home grown access database that I use to keep all the PC's, NPC's and even build mooks out of it. It keeps up with the effective Build Points of each character and can generate a mook within x% of the BP to make it a challenge.

-M&P

Hey MindandPen... Care to share?

Keep the Faith