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> Using a Spirit's Movement Power on Aircraft, How fast is too fast?
Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 03:58 PM
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This just came up last session when the team magician was trying to figure out if he could have an Air Spirit use Movement on a MiG-67 T-bird with Body 18. My reading indicates that a Force 9 spirit would be needed to get a x4(or x5 if you round up) speed multiplier. The team magician could probably get away with summoning a Force 9 spirit without taking too much Drain, but I interjected that the pilot of the t-bird refuses to fly like that.

The reasoning I used is that the MiG-67's Speed is 800 meters per Combat Turn ~= 600 mph. Assuming a x4 multiplier the t-bird would be moving at 2,400 mph, or just a bit over Mach 3 and coincidentally right around the max cruising speed of the now-defunct SR-71. Now, assuming the air-frame could take it, imagine maneuvering at that speed while hugging the terrain to avoid detection. Even with hot-sim rigging, I just don't see it. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong if anyone has any thoughts.

Edit: It occurs to me that if the vehicle is under the Movement Power, then the spirit is doing the driving. Am I correct? Does that make any difference?
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DireRadiant
post May 13 2010, 04:02 PM
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Magic + Physics make heads explode.

Once you introduce Magic into the equation, then it must be present in all phases of the equation and accounted for. Therefore since the mach billion plane is being powered by magic, you can also include the Magic on the side of operating the vehicle.

e.g.

Flying Vehicle Velocity * 4 = Handling problems
Is different from
Flying Vehicle Velocity * 4 + Magic = Handling Problem + Magic

Can't add Magic just on one side, it affects all elements.

edit: Net effect of all of this, is once Magic is applied to the speed, this doesn't change how the normal Handling/Crash tests are handled. You didn't strap on an Atlas Rocket booster, you used the Power of Magic.
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otakusensei
post May 13 2010, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ May 13 2010, 10:58 AM) *
This just came up last session when the team magician was trying to figure out if he could have an Air Spirit use Movement on a MiG-67 T-bird with Body 18. My reading indicates that a Force 9 spirit would be needed to get a x4(or x5 if you round up) speed multiplier. The team magician could probably get away with summoning a Force 9 spirit without taking too much Drain, but I interjected that the pilot of the t-bird refuses to fly like that.

The reasoning I used is that the MiG-67's Speed is 800 meters per Combat Turn ~= 600 mph. Assuming a x4 multiplier the t-bird would be moving at 2,400 mph, or just a bit over Mach 3 and coincidentally right around the max cruising speed of the now-defunct SR-71. Now, assuming the air-frame could take it, imagine maneuvering at that speed while hugging the terrain to avoid detection. Even with hot-sim rigging, I just don't see it. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong if anyone has any thoughts.

Edit: It occurs to me that if the vehicle is under the Movement Power, then the spirit is doing the driving. Am I correct? Does that make any difference?


Math looks right.

It depends on if you're GM thinks that the power allows safe movement at that speed, or if it just allows movement up to that speed. Also, the pilot doesn't have to move at top speed and presumable has full control. But I assume the bird would handle much differently. That is saying, I don't think the spirit drives; it can use the power on multiple targets at once and having to control each one seems silly and too much like telekinesis.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 13 2010, 11:02 AM) *
Magic + Physics make heads explode.

Once you introduce Magic into the equation, then it must be present in all phases of the equation and accounted for. Therefore since the mach billion plane is being powered by magic, you can also include the Magic on the side of operating the vehicle.

e.g.

Flying Vehicle Velocity * 4 = Handling problems
Is different from
Flying Vehicle Velocity * 4 + Magic = Handling Problem + Magic

Can't add Magic just on one side, it affects all elements.

And so it all comes down to YMMV again. That solution strikes me as a bit too much of an "iWin" button for magic. Then again, it makes little difference in the final analysis; it just means that the party their chasing is doing the same thing with their t-bird, so it all cancels out.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ May 13 2010, 11:05 AM) *
Math looks right.

It depends on if you're GM thinks that the power allows safe movement at that speed, or if it just allows movement up to that speed. Also, the pilot doesn't have to move at top speed and presumable has full control. But I assume the bird would handle much differently. That is saying, I don't think the spirit drives; it can use the power on multiple targets at once and having to control each one seems silly and too much like telekinesis.

Reading the entry for the Movement Power in SR4A it is not obvious to me that the spirit can use the power on multiple targets simultaneously. What am I missing?
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DireRadiant
post May 13 2010, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ May 13 2010, 11:06 AM) *
And so it all comes down to YMMV again. That solution strikes me as a bit too much of an "iWin" button for magic. Then again, it makes little difference in the final analysis; it just means that the party their chasing is doing the same thing with their t-bird, so it all cancels out.


Exactly. Magic just makes it better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Physics = Physics
becomes
Physics + Magic = Physics + Magic
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otakusensei
post May 13 2010, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ May 13 2010, 11:08 AM) *
Reading the entry for the Movement Power in SR4A it is not obvious to me that the spirit can use the power on multiple targets simultaneously. What am I missing?


Ah, my bad. I was getting it mixed up with Concealment. Still seems a bit too much like Telekinesis if the spirit has to drive. And really, who would let the spirit drive the car?
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DireRadiant
post May 13 2010, 04:19 PM
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Oh I can just see this. Someone going to ask what happens to all the occupants when the vehicle suddenly is going ten times faster. I remember the stories of people were going to suffocate on those old 20 mile per hour steam trains in the old days.

As an aside, there is somewhere an errata or modification where the spirit Movement Power is limited by the Vehicle body so you don't get supertanker moving around at warp speeds.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 13 2010, 11:09 AM) *
Exactly. Magic just makes it better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Physics = Physics
becomes
Physics + Magic = Physics + Magic

Magic does not always create added value. If the team is getting to Denver in twenty minutes then it makes it hard for me to insert the colorful stopover encounters along the way. When you add Magic to these equations the situation can spiral out of control. Good smuggler outfits will have magicians who can do this, making smuggling ultra fast. The authorities trying to prevent this method of smuggling come up with countermeasures. And on and on. I don't always have the mental energy to think out the the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th order ramifications of making Magic a panacea.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 13 2010, 11:19 AM) *
Oh I can just see this. Someone going to ask what happens to all the occupants when the vehicle suddenly is going ten times faster. I remember the stories of people were going to suffocate on those old 20 mile per hour steam trains in the old days.

As an aside, there is somewhere an errata or modification where the spirit Movement Power is limited by the Vehicle body so you don't get supertanker moving around at warp speeds.

SR4A says that a being cannot use Movement on a subject with a Body Rating more than twice it's Magic Rating, which is why a Force 9 spirit is needed to Move a Body 18 t-bird (at a multiplier of half Magic Rating).
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forgarn
post May 13 2010, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ May 13 2010, 10:58 AM) *
The reasoning I used is that the MiG-67's Speed is 800 meters per Combat Turn ~= 600 mph. Assuming a x4 multiplier the t-bird would be moving at 2,400 mph, or just a bit over Mach 3 and coincidentally right around the max cruising speed of the now-defunct SR-71. Now, assuming the air-frame could take it, imagine maneuvering at that speed while hugging the terrain to avoid detection. Even with hot-sim rigging, I just don't see it. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong if anyone has any thoughts.


Um... That is the published max cruising speed. Believe me it went faster. If you believe the published maxes then an aircraft carrier can only do about 40 knots max however I have personally seen them go much faster.

As for the hot-sim rigging, it should not be a problem because you are operating at the speed of thought for the commands. Should be just normal tests.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ May 13 2010, 11:46 AM) *
Um... That is the published max cruising speed. Believe me it went faster. If you believe the published maxes then an aircraft carrier can only do about 40 knots max however I have personally seen them go much faster.

As for the hot-sim rigging, it should not be a problem because you are operating at the speed of thought for the commands. Should be just normal tests.

I'm aware that top speeds and top altitudes for these sorts of craft are classified, having worked with the ER-2 (research U-2) program in the past. My point was more that those aircraft are achieving those speeds at very high altitude, where friction is substantially lessened by the much lower air pressure and where they don't have to maneuver around anything. I'm just dubious that a LAV craft designed to handle and maneuver close to the ground at approximately 600mph can do so easily at 2,400mph. If you think hot-sim rigging is up to the task, I can't prove you wrong. If DireRadiant wants to say that Magic!! hand-waves away all problems, like massive ram-heating of the aircraft's skin temp, then again I can't prove him wrong. It just feels wrong to me.
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Eratosthenes
post May 13 2010, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ May 13 2010, 11:46 AM) *
Um... That is the published max cruising speed. Believe me it went faster. If you believe the published maxes then an aircraft carrier can only do about 40 knots max however I have personally seen them go much faster.

As for the hot-sim rigging, it should not be a problem because you are operating at the speed of thought for the commands. Should be just normal tests.


Flying at SR-71 speeds at high cruising altitude is much different than flying at terrain level at those speeds. It would be near impossible (and possibly completely impossible, given momemtum and turning radius etc. etc.) to 1) react, and 2) effect the needed course adjustments to avoid impacting something.

At 2400 mph, you're covering, what, 2 miles every second?
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ May 13 2010, 12:03 PM) *
Flying at SR-71 speeds at high cruising altitude is much different than flying at terrain level at those speeds. It would be near impossible (and possibly completely impossible, given momemtum and turning radius etc. etc.) to 1) react, and 2) effect the needed course adjustments to avoid impacting something.

At 2400 mph, you're covering, what, 2 miles every second?

About 2/3 of a mile per second, but I believe your argument holds. If I understand correctly, the whole point of the ground-hugging t-bird smuggler is to stay well below the altitude at which ground clutter makes radar detection impossible. I agree that maneuvering through canyons and around hills at Mach 3 stretches plausibility, even with rigging at the "speed of thought."
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TommyTwoToes
post May 13 2010, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Semerkhet @ May 13 2010, 12:05 PM) *
About 2/3 of a mile per second, but I believe your argument holds. If I understand correctly, the whole point of the ground-hugging t-bird smuggler is to stay well below the altitude at which ground clutter makes radar detection impossible. I agree that maneuvering through canyons and around hills at Mach 3 stretches plausibility, even with rigging at the "speed of thought."

You might have a slightly increased IR signature also, if memory serves the SR-71 heated up substantially due to friction.
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Dumori
post May 13 2010, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 13 2010, 05:19 PM) *
Oh I can just see this. Someone going to ask what happens to all the occupants when the vehicle suddenly is going ten times faster. I remember the stories of people were going to suffocate on those old 20 mile per hour steam trains in the old days.

As an aside, there is somewhere an errata or modification where the spirit Movement Power is limited by the Vehicle body so you don't get supertanker moving around at warp speeds.

Well sharp turns could hurt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Tanegar
post May 13 2010, 06:31 PM
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As long as we're mixing physics and magic, who's to say that the spirit isn't directly modifying spacetime? You know, taking the T-bird and the bubble of spacetime immediately surrounding it and sort of "skating" them over the surface of reality.

Also, God just killed a metric fuckton of kittens. You bastards.
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MJBurrage
post May 13 2010, 06:39 PM
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SR2 and SR4A just describe the change is speed. SR3 add a bit including "Depending on the situation, this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test."

So I would say that the power does not aid the driver/pilot, and that ground (or close to ground) movement would be exceedingly difficult if the terrain is at all restricted.

Having said that, if a spirit was also using Guard (which prevents accidents and glitches) on the driver/pilot, than I would probably just ignore such complications.
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Banaticus
post May 13 2010, 06:39 PM
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If I was a government trying to stop smugglers who might use a tactic like this, I think I'd put a mage in the intercept team. The intercept team would be parked at some station, searching for craft with radar, watching for ground-hugging vehicles and the mage would, every day, create a new Force 1 mana barrier in a few random spots (around a corner, on the other side of a blunt cliff). Once the craft flys through the barrier, the spirit makes the barrier pop, the mage instantly knows where the craft is, sends a spirit to astrally chase it while the intercept team piles into their craft and uses the same technique to boost their vehicle to catch up with the spirit who's chasing the other craft.

End result, chase sequences work the exact same. Stuff + Magic = Magic + Stuff. There might be a period of a week or a month where someone could exploit this "new" technique, but soon everyone else starts catching on (and catching up) and the situation returns to the status quo.
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Semerkhet
post May 13 2010, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 13 2010, 12:39 PM) *
If I was a government trying to stop smugglers who might use a tactic like this, I think I'd put a mage in the intercept team. The intercept team would be parked at some station, searching for craft with radar, watching for ground-hugging vehicles and the mage would, every day, create a new Force 1 mana barrier in a few random spots (around a corner, on the other side of a blunt cliff). Once the craft flys through the barrier, the spirit makes the barrier pop, the mage instantly knows where the craft is, sends a spirit to astrally chase it while the intercept team piles into their craft and uses the same technique to boost their vehicle to catch up with the spirit who's chasing the other craft.

End result, chase sequences work the exact same. Stuff + Magic = Magic + Stuff. There might be a period of a week or a month where someone could exploit this "new" technique, but soon everyone else starts catching on (and catching up) and the situation returns to the status quo.

Agreed. Which is why I we all, as GMs, have to draw the line somewhere. I posted this topic mostly to make sure I wasn't making any glaring math mistakes or missing rules. As it turns out there are good arguments for and against. If it makes the game more fun* then great; if it bogs things down then not so much. In this particular case I think I can make the game more fun by having the t-bird cat-and-mouse with patrols and have roleplaying opportunities at the rest stops.

* for subjective values of fun.
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HappyDaze
post May 13 2010, 11:15 PM
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I've ruled that the change in speed only changes the time it takes to cover a distance. No other secondary effects are changed. A few examples:

Using movement to increase/decrease the speed of a car does not alter it's crash damage value. This means that one clever use is to have a spirit reduce the speed of a vehicle allowing you to appear to 'slowly bump' someone in a parking lot and still send them sprawling.

Using movement to increase/decrease the speed of a falling body does not alter falling damage. This means that one use is to have a spirit increase the speed of a parachuting runner to reduce the 'hang time' without taking any additional damage. You could also slow the asshole you throw off a building, giving him more time to contemplate his terrible situation, but he still impacts and takes falling damage based on his base speed.

Using movement to increase/decrease the speed of an aircraft does not alter stall speed. This means you can reduce the effective speed of an aircraft and give it more loitering time over a given spot.
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Tanegar
post May 13 2010, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 13 2010, 07:15 PM) *
Using movement to increase/decrease the speed of an aircraft does not alter stall speed. This means you can reduce the effective speed of an aircraft and give it more loitering time over a given spot.

Er... you might need to check your reasoning on that. If you reduce an aircraft's speed below its stall speed, it stalls and falls out of the sky. In order to give a fixed-wing aircraft additional loiter time, the Movement power would have to reduce the plane's stall speed; alternatively, the spirit may use another power to suspend the aircraft in the air.
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HappyDaze
post May 14 2010, 03:30 AM
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You obviously missd that I said all physics-based calculations are still based upon the character's/creature's/vehicle's true speed before Movement is applied.
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Falconer
post May 14 2010, 03:52 AM
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I agree, just because magic has you moving at ludicrous speed... doesn't mean spaceball I is going to stop in time!

Or that the contents/passengers won't have their heads smashed in when they fly into the command console headfirst!



Just because you can now move faster, doesn't mean you're better able to handle the G-forces which result either.


When was the last time you heard for someone using the movement power asking to have their effective ramming speed reduced when slamming into something intentionally? That's what they're doing when they're asking for all the speed and none of the drawbacks.


IMO: the movement power would have been far better if the points could have been split between +1 handling, and +10% speed per hit.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 14 2010, 04:03 AM
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Yeah, sorry, but no.

The entire point of the power is to magically enhance your speed and everything related to it. If it was an instant death trap, there'd be no point to the power; metahumans, bikes, and cars aren't meant to travel at those crazy speeds either, so why only pick on aircraft? People coming up with all this silliness, instead of just limiting the effect of the power to metahumans or small/light vehicles if they really see it as a problem, is pretty damn lame.
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