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> RL->Shadowrun, hacking a car
Johnny Hammersti...
post May 17 2010, 11:37 AM
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exciting news from the real world. Cars can be hacked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/science/...tml?ref=science

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Mesh
post May 17 2010, 11:59 AM
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It's no surprise. The last couple years have seen cars equipped with keys that no longer need to be inserted in the car to enable ignition. Their wireless signal could be spoofed just like plain metal keys could be copied in the 80s and earlier. Range is still an issue, however, so the notion that you can "hack" one of these cars to cause a crash is premature. Yes, you could do it, but you would have to be within a meter. If the car was moving, you'd have to be at an unsafe distance to connect which is more likely to cause an accident (involving you) than the hack.

Still pretty cool though, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and the integration of the satellite system makes it all the scarier.

Mesh
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Deadmannumberone
post May 17 2010, 12:41 PM
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Hack OnStar and you can access any GM vehicle made since '02 or '03, even if the owner doesn't have an OnStar subscription, and then lock/unlock doors, turn the vehicle on/off, work many instruments including the navigation system (if installed), radio, lights, turn signals, hazards and climate control.
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nezumi
post May 17 2010, 02:18 PM
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I never buy a computer without a hardwired off switch, and I plan to do the same with cars.

QUOTE (Mesh @ May 17 2010, 06:59 AM) *
Range is still an issue, however, so the notion that you can "hack" one of these cars to cause a crash is premature. Yes, you could do it, but you would have to be within a meter.


I don't know that that's true. With a very nice receiver, and a strong transmitter for your false key, I don't see any particular reason you can't replicate any particular exchange from a distance. The car isn't sensitive to the power of the key's transmission, so replacing an RFID chip with an actual, boosted transmission should still work.
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Surt
post May 17 2010, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ May 17 2010, 03:18 PM) *
I never buy a computer without a hardwired off switch, and I plan to do the same with cars.



I don't know that that's true. With a very nice receiver, and a strong transmitter for your false key, I don't see any particular reason you can't replicate any particular exchange from a distance. The car isn't sensitive to the power of the key's transmission, so replacing an RFID chip with an actual, boosted transmission should still work.


My Dad has a car that has an electronic key. He drives a toyota avalon. It has to be inside the car it has nothing to do with range it just won't accept signals not coming form inside the car. Granted don't know about Onstar but it seems like they would have similiar safeguards.

This post has been edited by Surt: May 17 2010, 02:29 PM
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nezumi
post May 17 2010, 03:32 PM
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I don't know the details, but most car fobs have limited ranges because they use tiny antennas and tiny batteries - there's nothing magic about them. Without using some nice triangulation, I don't know how a car would know the key is inside of the vehicle or out, if you start boosting up the strength of the responding transmission.
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Minchandre
post May 17 2010, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ May 17 2010, 09:32 AM) *
I don't know the details, but most car fobs have limited ranges because they use tiny antennas and tiny batteries - there's nothing magic about them. Without using some nice triangulation, I don't know how a car would know the key is inside of the vehicle or out, if you start boosting up the strength of the responding transmission.


I'm not sure, but my mom's Volvo is the same way - the car won't start unless the key is physically inside the car - even, e.g., next to the door doesn't work. Of course, it's not as though triangulation would be very hard.
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tete
post May 17 2010, 04:45 PM
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We have been hacking cars for awhile now to dial in the performance you want and take speed caps off. With remote start systems already in existence its only a matter of time till someone tries to use it to steal a car.
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nezumi
post May 17 2010, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Minchandre @ May 17 2010, 11:35 AM) *
I'm not sure, but my mom's Volvo is the same way - the car won't start unless the key is physically inside the car - even, e.g., next to the door doesn't work. Of course, it's not as though triangulation would be very hard.


Goofy question, have you ever tried from on top of or underneath the vehicle?
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Draco18s
post May 17 2010, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (tete @ May 17 2010, 12:45 PM) *
We have been hacking cars for awhile now to dial in the performance you want and take speed caps off. With remote start systems already in existence its only a matter of time till someone tries to use it to steal a car.


On remote start:
The car won't go anywhere unless the key is actually in the ignition (or in the case of the no-need-to-key-it keys, the fob inside the car).
Know from (second hand) experience.*

*Mom's car needed some body work, so she had a rental with remote start for a few weeks.
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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (Surt @ May 17 2010, 08:29 AM) *
Granted don't know about Onstar but it seems like they would have similiar safeguards.


OnStar is a service run by GM that has remote access via satellite link to all GM vehicles built with the OnStar module installed (basically every GM vehicle since '02) from their call center. Hacking into the server at that call center and you then have access to all GM vehicles built with an OnStar module installed. The only safeguards they have are the firewall on the servers. And now that I think about it, you could also directly hack the individual vehicles if you knew the Satellite ID number, encryption protocols, and system command codes.
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hobgoblin
post May 20 2010, 12:47 AM
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iirc, the car body reduces signal strength somewhat, so it could be the signal is weak enough that when outside the car the response cant be picked up.

but it could also be a directional antenna aimed at the drivers seat.
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Surt
post May 21 2010, 03:36 PM
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I've been talking to a mechanic about it and this it what he said about my Dad's car atleast. The key itself doesn't send out a signal so much as the car sends out a signal and then checks to see if the key is in the vicinity. You can turn the car on but the engine won't turn on unless the key is in the vehicle itself. It has to do with proximity. You can't start the car by the key so much as the key allows the car to be started.
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hobgoblin
post May 21 2010, 03:38 PM
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So basically, RFID dongle check.
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nezumi
post May 21 2010, 04:16 PM
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Which means if you figure out what the key will transmit, you can actively transmit it with an antenna, and either angle yourself properly, or just turn up the power enough to trick the car regarding position/distance.
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