four passes max, ... usually Options

[wind_in_the_ston...]

SR4A p.145 reads, "Most characters may not act in more than 4 Initiative Passes in a combat Turn (even if the spend Edge)."

Can someone tell me what this means?

First of all, as I understand it, there is a particular combination of 'ware that you can get to give you a fifth pass when in the Matrix. Second, you can spend a point of Edge to get an extra IP.

The parenthetical phrase indicates that if you already have four IP's (say, from Wired 3), you can't spend Edge for a fifth. So why "most characters"? Just for that odd case of a 'ware combo that allows it? Can I assume it means, "No character may act in five Initiative passes, except where explicitly allowed by gear or other rules?"

[Ol' Scratch]

The rule you cited is the general rule. If other rules make an exception, well, they've made an exception. While using VR, for instance, it is very possible to get up to 5 Passes.

The general rule, however, specifically states that you cannot exceed the normal limit if you use Edge to gain an extra Pass. The rule that lets you do that is intended for slower characters. Likewise, not all characters will have the combination of hardware and implants that allow for 5 passes in the Matrix, so the "most characters" bit is completely accurate.

[Teulisch]

well... i could see a way in cannon to augment to 5 physical actions, but its not in the books at the moment. Remember back in sr3 when you could stack the bonuses from boosted reflexes with the synaptic bioware? It would be simple enough to translate the boosted reflexes treatment forward to 4e. in fact proper optimization could in theory allow 6 passes. in general +1d6 equals +1 IP.

[Medicineman]

Can I assume it means, "No character may act in five Initiative passes, except where explicitly allowed by gear or other rules?"
Yes ,exactly that

Hough !
Medicineman

[Karoline]

Can I assume it means, "No character may act in five Initiative passes, except where explicitly allowed by gear or other rules?"

Exactly.

[Man-of-many-Char...]

As I read it "Most ... may not ..." is quite different to "Nobody can ...".
Yes, in exceptions (grade 3 cyberware, spell, adept power) when using edge or with some yet to be desribed ware/spells/powers it may be possible to have more than 4 IPs.

EDIT: Ok, to slow opening all first and then reading and replying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

EDIT 2: Ok, and I have t oread my rules better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Man-of-many-Chars: May 18 2010, 05:18 AM

[Dakka Dakka]

You forgot technomancers. IIRC they can get echoes to augment their VR-IPs to 5and then another to use their VR-Initiative in meat space. But after a lot of karma they will probably still be weak, frail and clumsy so this is not much of a problem.

[koogco]

Yes, in general, outside the matrix, its impossible to get more than 4 IPs. However, if the players where to get to 3-4 IPs all of them, i see nothing wrong with encountering some experimental bioware that allows 5 IPs (not accessible to the player characters anytime soon)

[Sengir]

You forgot technomancers. IIRC they can get echoes to augment their VR-IPs to 5and then another to use their VR-Initiative in meat space.

Their initiative, but not the passes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Mesh Reality allows the TM to divide his IPs between matrix and meat actions using VR initiative for both, however he cannot assign more IPs to meat world actions that he normally could.

[Dakka Dakka]

Their initiative, but not the passes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Initiative is a Composite of Initiative Score and Initiative Passes, but I forgot about the restriction:

This allows her to use her Matrix Initiative and Initiative Passes in meat space, though she cannot use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually would, based on her normal Initiative Passes. Remaining IPs must be spent on Matrix actions only.

Unfortunately in the text they use Initiative synonymously with Initiative Score.

[Prime Mover]

I remember awhile back there was a discussion about putting a stirrup interface in yourself so you could rig your own body with Full VR mods and get 5 passes.

[Yerameyahu]

But then most of your actions would be Complex, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Caadium]

If a TM has immersed themselves 6 times they can have 5 IP in the matrix, 4 of which can be used for meatworld actions. In the process they also have the equivelent of rating 6 skillwires. Thats a hell of a lot of karma devoted to something a non-TM could basically do for a few thousand nuyen.

[Ol' Scratch]

Assuming you're talking about the Acceleration echo: No. The rule for Mesh Reality specifically says "she cannot use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually would." Emphasis mine. It doesn't say "...than she could potentially have in the physical world." Initiative passes granted for Matrix-only passes would not translate over.

Mesh Reality basically just lets the technomancer switch to-and-from VR without any penalty to actions, and without losing the extra Matrix-only passes in the process.

[Udoshi]

If a TM has immersed themselves 6 times they can have 5 IP in the matrix, 4 of which can be used for meatworld actions. In the process they also have the equivelent of rating 6 skillwires. Thats a hell of a lot of karma devoted to something a non-TM could basically do for a few thousand nuyen.

This setup - with Macro in the mix - also lets a TM do something nobody else can: take ten actions per turn, split them between the matrix and the real world(such as full defensing everything meatside while hacking via macro), fight on the matrix and real world at the same time, and claim the hotsim bonus in the real world.

and everyone else wishes they could buy that.

[Caadium]

Assuming you're talking about the Acceleration echo: No. The rule for Mesh Reality specifically says "she cannot use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually would." Emphasis mine. It doesn't say "...than she could potentially have in the physical world." Initiative passes granted for Matrix-only passes would not translate over.

Mesh Reality basically just lets the technomancer switch to-and-from VR without any penalty to actions, and without losing the extra Matrix-only passes in the process.

Then I guess thats an area where I'll just have to agree to disagree with you. My opinion is that if a TM has 4 "real-world" IPs, no matter if they are from bio/cyber/echoes, then that is how many real-world actions that they "usually" would have. Just my way of looking at it though.

However, in truth its all just theoritical since its not something that would ever come up at a table I was playing in.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

Which brings up a question for me; could a dronomancer use his Unarmed Combat skill in a rigged anthroform drone? If so, 5 bp for a martial art, 2 bp for Set-Up Strike, and a high Unarmed skill at chargen would a) make him (slightly) less squishy on his own, and b) make him unstoppable with a customized anthroform (assuming he has the 5-IP bit going for him, he could use 4 IP's to SUS, then use the fifth to do gnarly amounts of damage)....unless I'm missing something, that is

[Sengir]

The rule for Mesh Reality specifically says "she cannot use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually would."

..."based on her normal Initiative Passes". The number of normal IPs for a TM with Acceleration 3 is quite obviously 4.

[Udoshi]

No, they use Gunnery for attacks. Using Weapon Skill instead is a Cyborg Jarhead thing - which, as far as I have heard, the devs intended to be usable by riggers too, but I don't have a quote to point to(though if anyone does, please point me there)

On the other hand, attacks with Mechanical Limbs, which a kung fu robot almost certainly would be, rolls Response+Skill+Handling for jumped in riggers. Equal cases could be made for it being gunnery or unarmed.

However. Martial Arts is a Quality, not a skill, and neither are maneuvers. A rigger still gets to use them.

[Ol' Scratch]

..."based on her normal Initiative Passes". The number of normal IPs for a TM with Acceleration 3 is quite obviously 4.

I see where I made my mistake. I thought Acceleration only granted extra Matrix initiative and passes.

The main point I was trying to make stands though. They wouldn't get 5 passes in the physical world with Mesh Reality. It doesn't let you transform Matrix-only passes into real-world ones.

[Udoshi]

Nope, Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking are for the Matrix-side. Mesh reality could let you take up to four meatside, and the 5th one on the internet, though.

[Ol' Scratch]

Nope, Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking are for the Matrix-side. Mesh reality could let you take up to four meatside, and the 5th one on the internet, though.

If you had 4 Passes in the real-world to begin with.

[Caadium]

If a TM has immersed themselves 6 times they can have 5 IP in the matrix, 4 of which can be used for meatworld actions. In the process they also have the equivelent of rating 6 skillwires. Thats a hell of a lot of karma devoted to something a non-TM could basically do for a few thousand nuyen.

Nope, Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking are for the Matrix-side. Mesh reality could let you take up to four meatside, and the 5th one on the internet, though.

If you had 4 Passes in the real-world to begin with.

The example I gave was for a TM that immersed 6 times, 4 of which would be used to get you to 4 real-world IP (1 for biowire, 3 for extra IP). This is basically the build where the TM tries to be a jack of all trades via CFs (theirs or supplemented by sprites) and biowires. Suddenly the TM can shoot like a true gun-bunny, etc. Their physical stats would probably still suck and overall I don't think its a good build. I only posted it as it applies to the original topic; going beyond 4 IP.

[Mäx]

If a TM has immersed themselves 6 times they can have 5 IP in the matrix, 4 of which can be used for meatworld actions. In the process they also have the equivelent of rating 6 skillwires. Thats a hell of a lot of karma devoted to something a non-TM could basically do for a few thousand nuyen.

Actually he only has to submerge once unless he want to raise his reconance over 7, with that you can get a total of 7 echoes before having to submerge again costing a 15 karma per echo.

[Karoline]

Actually he only has to submerge once unless he want to raise his reconance over 7, with that you can get a total of 7 echoes before having to submerge again costing a 15 karma per echo.

If that optional rule is in use. The point was 6 echos though.