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> Electronic Firing and Personalized Grip don't stack -- why?
Samoth
post May 19 2010, 08:01 PM
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Simple question, simple answer?
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Dakka Dakka
post May 19 2010, 08:21 PM
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Balance.

Another possibility is that they should give 0.5 RC each rounded to 1, but 0.5*2 still is 1.
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Samoth
post May 19 2010, 09:15 PM
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Game balance isn't a good answer. Nothing in electronic firing's description indicates that it reduces recoil entirely. Hence, the personalizes grip should still grant a RC bonus.
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GrimWulf
post May 19 2010, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Samoth @ May 19 2010, 02:15 PM) *
Game balance isn't a good answer. Nothing in electronic firing's description indicates that it reduces recoil entirely. Hence, the personalizes grip should still grant a RC bonus.


May not be a good answer but it is the correct answer.
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HappyDaze
post May 19 2010, 10:06 PM
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If you've made you decision and you're the GM then just go with it. If you're not the GM, then that's who you need to convince, not the grand community of Dumpshock.
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hobgoblin
post May 19 2010, 10:20 PM
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could be shopping for arguments to present the GM with.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Samoth @ May 19 2010, 03:01 PM) *
Simple question, simple answer?

The incompatibility rules you're referring to are pretty random, and could have been solved by simply defining accessory/modification locations on a weapon. Then you don't have to include idiotic rules like "bipods and tripods don't stack, and, uh, neither do underbarrel weights and... underbarrel weights."
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Warlordtheft
post May 19 2010, 11:16 PM
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Probably because once you go for electronic firing the benefit from having a better grip is lessened as you no longer pull the trigger.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ May 19 2010, 06:16 PM) *
Probably because once you go for electronic firing the benefit from having a better grip is lessened as you no longer pull the trigger.

Yes you do.
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Teulisch
post May 20 2010, 12:06 AM
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the restrictions on the sling for RC mods is a lot more complicated looking. it wont stack with either the stock or the underbarrel mods. but its a good idea anyway because its cheap and has other useful benefits.
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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 19 2010, 02:21 PM) *
Another possibility is that they should give 0.5 RC each rounded to 1, but 0.5*2 still is 1.


This is the correct answer (though I'd say it's more .75 for the grip and .25 for the electronic firing). IRL, neither mod alone gives that much of an improvement in the stability of the gun (and EF only is noticeable in comparison to hammer fired guns).

Personally, I house rule the grip adds +1 to any attack made after taking aim (it makes the skilled more accurate, yet does virtually nothing for the untrained), and electronic firing only gives the perception modifier when used with a suppressed or silenced gun and no RC (as well as not occupying a mod slot).
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Falconer
post May 20 2010, 12:50 AM
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There's a huge difference between the heavy pull weight of a double-action trigger and a hair electronic trigger.


As far as recoil comp goes... there's far too much of it available already. Nothing whatsoever wrong w/ the rules limiting certain sources from stacking. Really unless you're automatic you only need 1 point, and if you need more than that you're using the uber automatic weapons fire rules.
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Yerameyahu
post May 20 2010, 01:21 AM
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Ditto: you don't need more cheap and easy RC, and balance *is* a reason.

Yes, the weapon mod rules could use a little polishing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I miss Rigger 3 and Cannon.
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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ May 19 2010, 06:50 PM) *
There's a huge difference between the heavy pull weight of a double-action trigger and a hair electronic trigger.


1) When averaged across all guns, it's not that much really, and when you remove designs that are more than 30 years old today, the difference is even smaller.
2) The difference is in maintaining aim, not in reduced recoil.
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HappyDaze
post May 20 2010, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 19 2010, 08:32 PM) *
2) The difference is in maintaining aim, not in reduced recoil.

In SR4 there is no difference in maintaining aim (in general, not the specific action) and reducing recoil - they both are one and the same.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 20 2010, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 19 2010, 05:17 PM) *
Yes you do.


Actually, according to the Arsenal, page 150, Combining Electronic Firing with Trigger removal is usually standard... though it does not have to be...

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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 19 2010, 07:05 PM) *
In SR4 there is no difference in maintaining aim (in general, not the specific action) and reducing recoil - they both are one and the same.


There are no rules for maintaining aim (holding the gun stead before firing), and with as little of a difference that is made by the switch from standard trigger to EF, giving a one die reduction to the penalty on follow-up shots for reduced trigger weight is not realistic.
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RunnerPaul
post May 20 2010, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 19 2010, 09:40 PM) *
There are no rules for maintaining aim (holding the gun stead before firing),


Except for, you know, the Take Aim simple action.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 20 2010, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 19 2010, 08:40 PM) *
There are no rules for maintaining aim (holding the gun stead before firing), and with as little of a difference that is made by the switch from standard trigger to EF, giving a one die reduction to the penalty on follow-up shots for reduced trigger weight is not realistic.


You have a Take Aim Action...

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd by Runner Paul, what I get for answering a question from my son...

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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 03:51 AM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ May 19 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Except for, you know, the Take Aim simple action.


Taking aim and maintaining aim are two separate things in shooting. Taking aim is lining the gun up on the target, maintaining aim is holding the gun on target. A heavy trigger only influences the latter (more-so with unskilled shooters).
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last_of_the_grea...
post May 20 2010, 03:51 AM
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The reason why they don't stack is because the rules say so! This is the only reason why. There are no other reasons.

Learn the rules. Embrace the rules! Do not question the rules or even think about them! Follow the rules, even the ones that contradict or don't make any sense or are outright broken. If you don't and you change or adjust even a single rule then you are not playing Shadowrun. You risk spending an eternity in torment just by considering anything else! Do you really want to spend an eternity in torment? Trust me, torment sucks! So, play the game and follow all the rules as they are written. This will make you a pious person!

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RunnerPaul
post May 20 2010, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 19 2010, 10:51 PM) *
Taking aim and maintaining aim are two separate things in shooting. Taking aim is lining the gun up on the target, maintaining aim is holding the gun on target.


But they're the same thing in Shadowrun. You have to keep performing the action until you fire, or you don't get the bonus. They just didn't want to clutter up the action list with a second title.
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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 04:09 AM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ May 19 2010, 09:55 PM) *
But they're the same thing in Shadowrun. You have to keep performing the action until you fire, or you don't get the bonus. They just didn't want to clutter up the action list with a second title.


In precision shooting, the initial use of the take aim action is called aiming, using the take aim action to maintain the bonus is called holding aim, and maintaining aim is keeping the gun steady while pulling the trigger (which doesn't have an in-game rule). I guess I could have been a little clearer in my previous post.
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Falconer
post May 20 2010, 04:47 AM
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Forget it guys, it's not worth arguing. This happens all the time, where you get someone new who just has to illustrate that they know it all about guns today. Then has to completely derail the thread in irrelevant minutia. Even worse, he's stuck on the initial aim as if he's in a slow-fire course and completely disregards the more important part (fast follow-on shots such as you'd see in a speed fire course appropriate to RECOIL COMPENSATION discussion). And yes, the heavier/longer pull (DAO) or even worse inconsistent pull (DA/SA) is generally considered a drawback.


And the difference is to those who don't understand... double actions cock the hammer by pulling the trigger and single-actions only release an already cocked & locked hammer. (and DA/SA's fire the first shot DA then follow-on shots as SA).
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Ol' Scratch
post May 20 2010, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ May 19 2010, 11:47 PM) *
Then has to completely derail the thread in irrelevant minutia.

Considering you love doing that shit, too, I don't see where you have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to bitching about other people doing it.
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