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> Mind Mage review and response please.
Syionide
post May 19 2010, 09:16 PM
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Hi everybody,

This is my first Shadowrun Character and I wanted to get some feedback from everybody if I'm creating my character correctly and what you think about my character.

QUOTE
Name: Lazarus Sane
Race: Elf (30 BP)
Character Concept: Mind Melter Mage
Magician Tradition: Chaos Magic


Attributes: (200 BP)
Body (4)
Agility (4)
Reaction (4)
Strength (3)
Charisma (4)
Intuition (3)
Logic (4)
Willpower (5)

Speical Attributes (50 BP)
Magic (5)
Edge (2)
Essence (6)

Initiative / Passes 7 / 1 (12 / 4)
Astral Initiative (7)

Positive Qualities (15 BP)
Magician

Negative Qualities (-20 BP)
Addiction: Mild (5 BP)
Addiction: Mild (5 BP)
Allergy (Common, Mild) (10 BP)
Sensitive System (15 BP)


Active Skills: (76 BP)
Assensing (3)
Counterspelling (5)
Pistols (2)
Ritual Spellcasting (2)
Spellcasting (5)
Perception (2)

Languages:
English N
Sperethiel (4)

Knowledge Skills: (0 BP)
SW:Corporate Security (3)
SW:Corporate Procedures (3)
SW:Drugs (3)
SW:Magical Talismans (3)
SW:Black Markets (3)
SW:Street Rumors (2)

Spells: (33 BP)
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elem.)
Stunbolt (Direct)
Combat Sense (Active, Psychic)
Mindlink (Active, Psychic)
Mind Probe (Active, Directional)
Heal
Chaotic World (Realistic, Multi)
Armor (Physical) (sm)
Control Thoughts (Mental)
Increase Reflexes
Levitate (Physical)


Contacts: (8 BP)
Fixer (2/2)
Talismonger (2/2)

Weapons
Ares Predator IV

Armor
Lined Coat [6/4]

Commlink
Novatech Airware [Base Response 3 / Base Signal 3]

Operating System
Novatech Navi [Firewall 3 / System 4]

Gear: (Lifestyle: Low (3 months) (23 BP)
Cost Category QTY Gear Rating
6000 Ammunition per 10 60 EX-Explosive Rounds
8000 ID/Credsticks 2 Fake SIN (1-6) 4
250 Commlink Accessory 5 Skinlink
6000 Magical Supplies 2 Magical Lodge Materials (1-6) 6
2000 Manatech 1 Mage Sight Goggles
1500 Slap Patches 10 Stimulant Patch (1-6) 6
6000 Magical Goods 2 Ritual Sorcery Materials (1-6) 6
1000 Explosives per Kilo 10 Foam
750 Explosives Accessories 10 Detonator Cap
2000 Underwater Gear 1 Diving Gear
250 Slap Patches 5 Antidote Patch
2000 Disguise 4 Nanopaste DisguiseSmall
75 Firearm Accessories 1 Concealable Holster

Nuyen Spent Gear: 110625


We are starting our campaign in Seattle.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Syionide: May 19 2010, 09:37 PM
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Samoth
post May 19 2010, 09:18 PM
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Maybe you should learn some spells?
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brennanhawkwood
post May 19 2010, 09:20 PM
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Spells? If the sheet tallies to 400, you've probably picked them and they aren't on the sheet you copied.
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Syionide
post May 19 2010, 09:25 PM
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Wow you guys are fast. I noticed that and started editing the sheet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I now have the spells in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Martin Silenus
post May 19 2010, 10:43 PM
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I don't know off-hand what the drain stat is for chaos magic, but I'd recommend maxing it out.

Consider trying to get to 3 or 4 edge (possibly at the expense of strength or agility); be sure you know the various things you can use to re-roll, et cetera. It's nice to have a lot, especially when you're starting out --before you have a sense for which rolls you can afford to fail and which you can't.

For an elf-mage, manabolt is 25 BP cheaper than pistols 2 and agility 4.

A mentor spirit can offer 5 BP for 2 dice on your manipulation or divination spells, which is a bargain.

You're probably not going to use or need ritual spellcasting.

Foci: You'll want a force 3 sustaining focus for combat reflexes --that's something you want up all the time. Also, a force 2 power focus is a bargain in terms of BP/benefit.

You're not getting much benefit out of being an elf if you don't max out and use charisma or agility. You could save a lot of BP by being an elf-poser human.

You didn't specialize in any skills. From a BP/karma perspective, it's optimal to buy them with karma instead of BP. But specializations are a bargain, and I'd recommend getting them eventually.

Mob mind is awesome for mind-mages. My guy threw a force 10 at a ganger party a while back as a quick way of raising an army of disposable heroes to cover our penetration of a very secure facility. Good, wholesome fun for the whole family with few if any surviving witnesses. Drain was uncomfy, though.

From a more character-development perspective: I've found that playing a mind-mage lends itself naturally to being a dispicably evil and ruthlessly self-serving manipulator. Or maybe that's just me. Either way, it's been great fun; but playing a character that specializes in depriving others of free will in various ways might not be for everyone.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 11:06 PM
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The biggest thing I noticed is that you lacked any kind of stealth capability. No Infiltration skill, no access to spirits (and thus Concealment), and no spells that cater to that, either. You're a big ol' "please shoot me first" neon sign.
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Propaganda
post May 19 2010, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Martin Silenus @ May 19 2010, 11:43 PM) *
I don't know off-hand what the drain stat is for chaos magic, but I'd recommend maxing it out.


Chaos Mages use Willpower + Logic for Drain.

Other than that, I agree with Martin...there's not much bonus in being an elf from a mechanical point of view if you're not planning to max out at least one of the two stats.

Edit:

I was just scrolling back up through Street Magic and I noticed that Black Magic uses Charisma for Drain...given the fact that you're playing someone that is at least a little evil, it might make more sense to switch to that. Then you could use the fact that you're an elf to get a higher Charisma, and thus a better chance at resisting Drain.

This post has been edited by Propaganda: May 19 2010, 11:10 PM
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Nifft
post May 19 2010, 11:10 PM
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1/ Decide what you're going to do in combat. You have three buff spells: you will not want to cast and maintain more than one of them without a Sustaining Focus, and you have no Sustaining Focus. I'd drop Armor and Combat Sense unless your plan is to cast all three on someone else and then hide for the duration of combat. Some people do exactly that and it can be very effective, or so I hear.

2/ You can't summon any Spirits. This is huge. Spirits are awesome. For example, a spirit can replace a Sustaining Focus.

3/ You're playing an Elf who picked a Logic-based tradition. Nothing wrong with that, if it fits your concept, but since you didn't mention a concept then I'm obligated to tell you it's far more optimal for an Elf to pick a Charisma based tradition -- and to pump your Charisma to levels no Human can match.

4/ You don't need Agility 4 or Strength 3. Take some points from those and put them into Edge and/or Charisma.

4.1/ If you switch to a Charisma tradition, you can take points out of Logic too.

4.2/ You have Body 4, you can do better than a mere Lined Coat. Get yourself an Armored Jacket, or consider dropping your Body to 3.

5/ You have a lot of disguise gear for a mage. Instead, take the spell Fashion (Street Magic) and / or Physical Mask (core book) and / or Shapechange (core book).

6/ Skills. You know a lot of spells, so I wonder if it's really worth keeping the gun.

6.1/ You have a gun with a Smartlink installed, but no eyewear or eyeware with a Smartlink display.

7/ Your Commlink's Response is only 3, which means your OS System limit is 3.

7.1/ You actually have to pay for the programs which run on your commlink if you want to make any kind of Matrix tests. If your group has a hacker you might want to just get one of the suites on p.232

8/ Decide on your secondary role. Are you a mage who is sneaky? Are you a mage who is influential? Put at least one rank in the appropriate skill group. If you do go for a Charisma-based tradition, you can start with 7 Charisma, and that plus one rank in the Influence group is enough dice to solve a lot of minor Face situations. Throw in the Influence (mental) spell and you're a supernaturally excellent con artist.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE (Propaganda @ May 19 2010, 06:07 PM) *
Other than that, I agree with Martin...there's not much bonus in being an elf from a mechanical point of view if you're not planning to max out at least one of the two stats.

Style and flavor is always more important than raw stats. I don't care what anyone says; stay as an Elf and a Chaos Mage if that's what you want to play.
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Nifft
post May 19 2010, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 19 2010, 06:11 PM) *
Style and flavor is always more important than raw stats. I don't care what anyone says; stay as an Elf and a Chaos Mage if that's what you want to play.

While you're absolutely correct in the larger sense -- and while Elf Shaman (+Face) may be old hat to people who have been playing for 20 years -- for a new guy's first character, he might want advice about making his race work for him.

Once he knows the system, he can make an informed choice about how much power he's willing to sacrifice for his concept.

Right now, he won't know if nobody tells him.
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Udoshi
post May 19 2010, 11:59 PM
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I'm looking at your stats, and seeing lowish values - 3's and 4's. See if you can't use Karmagen. Even with the 4a costs, and german edition balance fix, the system is much more conducive to low-average stat characters. Figured I'd mention it.

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Syionide
post May 20 2010, 12:09 AM
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Guy's that's awesome information. I am reworking my character and will post again with my updates. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I love this forum and the users!.
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Propaganda
post May 20 2010, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 20 2010, 12:11 AM) *
Style and flavor is always more important than raw stats. I don't care what anyone says; stay as an Elf and a Chaos Mage if that's what you want to play.


Oh, I'm not arguing that, I whole heartedly agree. But he seems to want opinions from a pure number crunching point of view, which is what I offered.
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Mesh
post May 20 2010, 01:16 AM
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Yes, you don't want to take the advice of people telling you to drop your "lame race", pump your stats, and change it all around if you like the idea of playing an elf. That's what RPGs are supposed to be about: Getting to do things you can only fantasize about.

Stats, skills, spells, and gewgaws aside, I'm more interested in what your backstory is. Especially for a mage, why are you running??? Mages can live the high life with just antidote, detox, and heal spells cast for the "haves". Why risk your neck running?

Next most importantly is your theme. What is it? If it's a "mind melter", why are only three of your eleven spells mind related? You don't look like a mind melter. You look like any generic mage: armor, reflexes, flying, all the basic blasting and combat spells.

What about this... it's a Raven Mage Manipulator with no self-control who gets off on thrills and adrenaline (mostly the thrill of the illegal like taking over people's minds to feel a sense of power over others). He misses no opportunity to take advantage of people and stroke his ego. He runs the shadows not just because he's addicted to the adrenaline highs of abusing his powers, but it's the perfect avenue for his life... and actually the only avenue. He was on track to (pick one: work for the FBI, become an arcane professor, museum security provider), but he couldn't control himself and used his power to (steal from the impound and manipulate leaders, convince a group of female students to service him all at once, took off with some art and jewelry of all the guests at a reception). It cost him several years of his life in jail. Now he's out. He just can't help himself, but maybe he'll get better in the future:

QUOTE
Body 3 (average shape)
Agility 2 (underdeveloped from over-reliance on manipulation)
Reaction 4 (quick, always looking for a split second's moment to take advantage of someone)
Strength 2 (same as agility)
Charisma 3 (he's not bad socially, maybe his power gives him noticeable social confidence)
Intuition 4 (perceptive, doesn't miss a trick)
Logic 6 (maybe his life was made too easy by the fact he's a natural genius)
Willpower 2 (Total Lack of Self-Control)
Edge 2 (Not lucky [jail])
Magic 5 (gifted with a strong natural knack)

Spellcasting 5 (manipulation 7)
Ritual Spellcasting 1
Counterspelling 3 (combat 5)
Conjuring (Group) 2
Assensing 2 (auras 4)
Astral Combat 2
Perception 3 (visual 5)
Infiltration 2 (urban 4)
Pistols 1 (semi-auto 3)
Influence (Group) 1

Positive
Focused Concentration (1)
Mentor Spirit, the Raven - +2 manipulation and +2 air spirits (about all he'll conjure)

Negative
SINner (criminal)
Addition, Moderate - thrills, adrenaline (see above desc.)

Spells - almost all with +4 to specializing and raven spirit
Control Actions (Mental)
Mob Mind (Mental)
Influence (Mental)
Magic Fingers (Physical)
Raven Critter Form (Physical) [there's your flying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ]
Improved Invisibility (Realistic, Single) [the better to take advantage of people]
Heal

Total so far: 384 build points
He sticks to his theme, does manipulation well, but doesn't try to be a powerful, generic master of everything arcane.


Mesh
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Syionide
post May 20 2010, 07:27 AM
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I have reworked the character based on the feedback. It has been really really helpful. I'm still just beginning the game, so the tips that explain the why have been very informative.

I have chosen the increase attribute spell to handle my low attributes if necessary. I changed the Tradition to Black Magic to change my drain to Willpower + Charisma and added in the Mentor Spirit and a Guardian Spirit. I removed the pistol and gear associated with it. I increased my contacts loyalty and connections a little bit and removed some of the active skills like ritual spell casting and added the conjuring group. I also bumped my charisma up to 7 to handle the drain.

QUOTE
Name: Lazarus Sane
Race: Elf (30 BP)
Character Concept: Mind Melter Mage
Magician Tradition: Black Magic


Attributes: (170 BP)
Body (3)
Agility (2)
Reaction (4)
Strength (1)
Charisma (7)
Intuition (3)
Logic (3)
Willpower (5)

Speical Attributes (60 BP)
Edge (3)
Magic (5)
Initiative (7)
Initiative Pass (1)
Essence (6)
Magic Resource Cost (45)


Positive Qualities (20 BP)
Magician
Mentor Spirit

Negative Qualities (-35 BP)
Astral Beacon (-5 BP)
Elf Poser (-5 BP)
SINner (Criminal) (-10 BP)
Sensitive System (-15 BP)


Active Skills: (76 BP)
Assensing (2)
Counterspelling (5)
Spellcasting (5)
Conjuring (Group) (2)
Perception (3)

Languages:
English N
Sperethiel (1)

Knowledge Skills: (0 BP)
SW:Corporate Security (3)
SW:Corporate Procedures (3)
SW:Drugs (3)
SW:Magical Talismans (3)
SW:Black Markets (3)
SW:Street Rumors (2)

Spells: (33 BP)
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elem.)
Stunbolt (Direct)
Mind Probe (Active, Directional)
Mindlink (Active, Psychic)
Mob Mind (Mental)
Control Thoughts (Mental)
Alter Memory (Mental) (sm)
Heal
Combat Sense (Active, Psychic)
Chaotic World (Realistic, Multi)
Increase Reflexes
Increase [Attribute]

Bound Spirit:
Guardian Spirit (4 Services)

Mentor Spirit:
Raven (+2 manipulation spells, +2 water spirit)

Foci:
Power (2)
Sustaining (3)


Contacts: (11 BP)
Fixer (2/3)
Talismonger (3/3)

Armor
Armored Jacket [8/6]

Commlink
Novatech Airware [Base Response 3 / Base Signal 3]

Operating System
Novatech Navi [Firewall 3 / System 4]

Gear: (Lifestyle: Low (2 months) (23 BP)
Cost Category QTY Gear Rating
3000 ID/Credsticks (1) Fake SIN (1-6) 3
100 Commlink Accessory (2) Skinlink
2500 Magical Supplies (1) Magical Lodge Materials (1-6) 5
2000 Manatech (1) Mage Sight Goggles
1000 Slap Patches (10) Stimulant Patch (1-6) 4
75 Firearm Accessories (1) Concealable Holster

Build Points
Attributes 170
Race 30
Special Att 60
Qualities -15
Gear 19
Contacts 11
Knowledge Skills 0
Active Skills 80
Total 400

Gear Cost 95000
Nuyen Gained
Nuyen Spent: 94325
Nuyen Total: 675


I'm hoping this seems like a better made character.
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Martin Silenus
post May 20 2010, 09:24 AM
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Much stronger, IMO. Point of order: you can't take elf poser as an elf. Also, the increase [attribute] spell must refer to a specific attribute, chosen at the time the spell is learned.

The twink in me demands that I caution you against starting with a bound spirit. For 4 BP, you could start with 20,000 NuY in binding materials instead. While on the topic of conjuring: you could shave 4 BP by dropping banishing and taking summoning and binding separately. (Read up on how banishing works and ask yourself if you wouldn't be happier just blasting away at an unruly spirit with focused fire from your team-mates.) Just some thoughts. Nits, really. Your build is getting tight enough that there's no need to worry overmuch about those things.

I'm mostly posting again because I meant to mention this in my previous post when I was talking about guns, but accidentally left it out: you don't have any spells that do physical damage. (Lightning is stun, it turns out.) I did the same thing with my guy and wound up picking up manabolt later when I found my team-mates and I were plugging away at different damage tracks a lot of the time, which was ineffective. An indirect spell is still clutch, though, and lightning is particularly good against tech. Maybe swap out stunbolt, since you've got lightning carrying you for stun damage?
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Nal0n
post May 20 2010, 10:07 AM
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Wasn't there a max nunber of spells one can learn at chargen?
Something along the lines of Magic*2 iirc. (Sorry AFB at the moment)
So you have too many spells there I fear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CeeJay
post May 20 2010, 11:52 AM
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Yupp, number of spells is limited to spellcating skill rank x2 (see SR4A p. 87).

So you either have to drop 2 spells or increase spellcasting to rank 6 and lower counterspelling to 4.
Also, the number of services that a spirit owes you at character generarion is limited to summoning skill rank. So instead of one spirit owing 4 services you would need to get 2 spirits each owing 2 services.

-CJ
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Makki
post May 20 2010, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Mesh @ May 20 2010, 03:16 AM) *
Yes, you don't want to take the advice of people telling you to drop your "lame race", pump your stats, and change it all around if you like the idea of playing an elf. That's what RPGs are supposed to be about: Getting to do things you can only fantasize about.

Next most importantly is your theme. What is it? If it's a "mind melter", why are only three of your eleven spells mind related? You don't look like a mind melter. You look like any generic mage: armor, reflexes, flying, all the basic blasting and combat spells.


what he says!

you did a good job with the stats and still being an elf just for RP reasons, but your spell build is crap. if you want combat spells, get a touch version like Knockout so you fuse the others brainadn do your Vulcan Mind Melt style magic.
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Syionide
post May 20 2010, 06:06 PM
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That is some good information guys. I ended up adding 1 point to Body. Dropping Conjurer group and going with Summoning (3) and Binding (2). Dropped elf poser (I was playing with becoming a human, which might have been fun to try to be a elf) and increased Sperethiel by 2 points. Changed my contacts to be 2/2 again to get more BP.

In the Spells list I dropped Increase Reflex and Increase Attribute and swapped out Stunbold with Manabolt for the direct damage. This allowed me to keep my Counterspelling at 5, increase my bound spirit to 3 services.

I am very happy with how my Mind Melter has ended up.

Thank you for all the valuable feedback (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Martin Silenus
post May 20 2010, 06:48 PM
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You're very welcome. However, I'd strongly caution against dropping increase reflexes unless you have another way of getting multiple initiative passes. It'd be a drag in combat being the guy who goes once while all your friends (and worse: enemies) are going three times. Combat sense is your other buff spell, and it's far more easily dispensed with than increase reflexes. The latter is a true staple you'll use every game; the prior a nice-to-have you might never miss.

Alternatively, you could also drop a mind spell, IMO. You've gotten some rather harsh feedback on being not mind-meltery enough, which I think is kind of bunk, honestly. How your character uses the spells he has will be more a test how true to the theme he is than any statistical test one could run on the distribution or count or (within reason) the nature of his spells. Spells that deviate from the theme probably either piqued some curiosity in some other dimension of the character, or else were just things your character forced himself to learn so he could earn more NuY and survive while doing it. We've all gots to get by.
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Draco18s
post May 20 2010, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Nifft @ May 19 2010, 07:10 PM) *
2/ You can't summon any Spirits. This is huge. Spirits are awesome. For example, a spirit can replace a Sustaining Focus.


...if you want to get spirits pissed off at you for permanently draining their force away, then yes they can!
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Nifft
post May 20 2010, 07:32 PM
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Here's my thoughts on your spell list, as cast at Force 5:

Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elem.) = Drain 4 -- you won't use this spell often, but the damage type is very nice for anti-drone stuff.
Stunbolt (Direct) = Drain 1 -- you will use this spell 3 time every combat round. It's your bread & butter. You could swap this for Manabolt with almost identical utility, but I personally prefer Stunbolt, since it gives your team the option of NOT killing specific dudes.
Mind Probe (Active, Directional) -- Cool, but rarely useful since it's obvious to the target when it's used. You may get more use out of the cheaper Analyze Truth spell if your party has a Face. Really depends on whether you are going to be interrogating or negotiating -- Mind Probe is awesome for interrogation, but lousy for negotiation.
Mindlink (Active, Psychic) -- Cool, but easily replaced by cheap tech in most situations. Can be a huge tactical advantage if you're in a heavily jammed area, but that's very rare. You could buy this later.
Mob Mind (Mental) = Drain 6 -- This is your big guns. You won't cast this more than once per run.
Control Thoughts (Mental) = Drain 4 -- IMHO too much overlap with Mob Mind, and too much drain to be a "casual" version of it. Pick one or the other. It's nice to have one area spell.
Alter Memory (Mental) (sm) = Drain 4 -- How often is this going to be more efficient than a bullet?
Heal -- A fine spell. Very useful to clean up the last few levels of damage after the Medic has his go.
Combat Sense (Active, Psychic) -- A buff spell, and one you don't need.
Chaotic World (Realistic, Multi) = Drain 5 -- This is another "big guns" spell. You can only realistically cast one "big guns" spell per run, so pick this one or Mob Mind. Both are good.
Increase Reflexes <-- "You must be at least this fast to ride Shadowrun."
Increase [Attribute] -- A buff spell. If your plan is to cast this on yourself, don't bother. If your plan is to cast this on someone else, maybe it's a good idea... but you know you only get to pick one attribute when you learn the spell. If you could boost any attribute it would be a brilliant utility buff, but for what it does it's not that great.

Missing from your list: Influence. This spell is an awesome social situation solver.

So, here's what I'd do with your spells:

Mental Stuff:
+ Stunbolt
+ Influence or Alter Memory
+ Mind Probe or Analyze Truth
+ Mob Mind

General Utility:
+ Increase Reflexes
+ Heal
+ Lightning Bolt

- - -

As a cheeseweasel, I must advise you against buying spirit services with build points. IMHO it would be wiser to spend those BP pumping up your Summoning skill (which ideally should be 5 or 6). You don't need 5 Counterspelling (4 is quite good), but when you summon every hit really counts, and you'll be summoning far more than you'll be counterspelling. You can summon up a fresh, temporary spirit as a Complex action. Most mages do this every morning while brushing their teeth. You'll go through hundreds of spirit summonings over your career: to a mage, summoning a new spirit is like a Street Samurai reloading his assault rifle with a specific kind of ammo.
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Nifft
post May 20 2010, 07:34 PM
Post #24


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QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 20 2010, 02:17 PM) *
...if you want to get spirits pissed off at you for permanently draining their force away, then yes they can!

Nah. If he can summon Spirits of Man, they can cast & sustain for him.

If he can't, then he can still use the Sustain Spell option for 3-5 rounds per spirit service. That's longer than many combats last anyway.

Spell Binding seems poorly thought out, I can't see either of the Core traditions using it much.
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DamienKnight
post May 20 2010, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Martin Silenus @ May 20 2010, 04:24 AM) *
I did the same thing with my guy and wound up picking up manabolt later when I found my team-mates and I were plugging away at different damage tracks a lot of the time, which was ineffective.

See SR4a p. 280 (Friends and Foes) This section discusses how to handle enemies of runners.

According to that, both Grunts and Grunt Lieutenants should have only one track, which accumulates both stun and physical, and has a number of boxes based on 8 + 1/2 the highest of body or will.

This means dealing stun while your teammates are doing physical is still going to be dropping peeps just as fast in most situations.

The only exception is when you are fighting Prime Runners. These characters are meant to be as good or better than your characters, and use both tracks.

In my experience, stun is better than physical as it leaves you with the option of leaving them alive or finishing them off.

Also, dont piss off Corps by killing all of their security guards! Keep the $ damage bill low, or else spending a little money on a hitman starts making too much fiscal sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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