True Form inhabitation spirits (ally and otherwise), Am I reading this right? Options

[Tanegar]

So, I'm reading the rules for ally conjuration in Street Magic, which leads me to the rules for inhabitation. SM says that a True Form merge consumes the vessel and the spirit gains the powers of Astral Form and Materialization. Regular, materializing spirits have both those powers by default. So, if I understand the rules, if you create an inhabitating ally spirit, and it gets 2+ net hits on its inhabitation test, the end result is basically identical to what you would have gotten by creating a materializing spirit in the first place. Is this correct? Are there any particular advantages to hybrid or flesh forms, or reasons why the magician would try to influence the inhabitation test in that direction?

[Starmage21]

So, I'm reading the rules for ally conjuration in Street Magic, which leads me to the rules for inhabitation. SM says that a True Form merge consumes the vessel and the spirit gains the powers of Astral Form and Materialization. Regular, materializing spirits have both those powers by default. So, if I understand the rules, if you create an inhabitating ally spirit, and it gets 2+ net hits on its inhabitation test, the end result is basically identical to what you would have gotten by creating a materializing spirit in the first place. Is this correct? Are there any particular advantages to hybrid or flesh forms, or reasons why the magician would try to influence the inhabitation test in that direction?

If you get a flesh form merge, then what you've basically got is a person who is posessed by the bug spirit, that person is destroyed and the bug inhabits his form though.

[Ol' Scratch]

Each one has advantages depending on the vessel. For instance, one of the methods allows the spirit to use the vessel's cyberware, while the others don't. I don't have my book handy, sadly, so I can't look it up and my memory on the subject sucks. But there are definite advantages and disadvantages to each option.

Personally, I'd find a lot more use for a normal ally spirit with Possession rather than Inhabitation. Since you have to be a possession mage yourself, you'll basically have a spirit that you can let possess you that never runs out of services. This becomes even more tantalizing once you get Channeling. You can also have it possess your enemies, specially prepared gadgets or bodies (be they corpses, plasteel mannequinns, etc.), or whatever else. It's just a lot more useful with Possession. While an Inhabitation Ally Spirit can be pretty powerful, it comes with a bunch of weaknesses, too. Especially since you can't guarantee getting the specific type of merging you're after. And once you do it, well, that's pretty much it. It's stuck in that form.

[Tanegar]

The specific scenario that I'm imagining is a materialization-tradition magician creating an inhabitation ally. Knowing now that deliberately trying for a True Form is basically a waste of effort (since I could just conjure a materialization ally and dispense with the intermediary step), I'm now thinking of having the ally inhabit a heavily armed and armored humanoid golem, and using Binding to influence the merge toward a "flesh" form (steel form?).

[augmentin]

The specific scenario that I'm imagining is a materialization-tradition magician creating an inhabitation ally. Knowing now that deliberately trying for a True Form is basically a waste of effort (since I could just conjure a materialization ally and dispense with the intermediary step), I'm now thinking of having the ally inhabit a heavily armed and armored humanoid golem, and using Binding to influence the merge toward a "flesh" form (steel form?).

How about have it possess a Tomino?

[Tanegar]

What's a Tomino? Or did you mean an Otomo? I'm thinking something a little more pink-mohawk.

[Hagga]

The specific scenario that I'm imagining is a materialization-tradition magician creating an inhabitation ally. Knowing now that deliberately trying for a True Form is basically a waste of effort (since I could just conjure a materialization ally and dispense with the intermediary step), I'm now thinking of having the ally inhabit a heavily armed and armored humanoid golem, and using Binding to influence the merge toward a "flesh" form (steel form?).

I don't think it'd be able to use the 'armed' parts very easily, although simpler things like Crossbows, being mechanical, yes, and non smartlinked weapons. You'd have to buy it golem sized guns and give it the firearm skills.

[Neraph]

What's a Tomino? Or did you mean an Otomo? I'm thinking something a little more pink-mohawk.

The Tomino is the high-combat version, look in the Large Drones section.

Hybrid Form merges are ideal since the resulting entity can use all forms of electronic devices, whereas no other form can (not even Flesh). They can also make full use of implants. Hybrid Forms can essentially become spellcasting spirit-hackers (although they obviously couldn't cast while hacking...).

Also, for some really interesting ideas for spirits, take a look at the thread in my signature.

[Saint Sithney]

A Flesh Form spirit maintains the same appearance, skills and knowledge as the host. It also has Extended Masking equal to its Edge. Imagine the kind of shit you could pull by merging your ally spirit into a kidnapped Prime Runner or, better yet high-level, Yakuza member. Now, he's not just a ghost buddy, he's a top-notch contact.

Sick and Evil, yes, but it's hard to argue with the benefits.

[Mordinvan]

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks its odd that a flesh form merge which gives access to all the memories and skills in the victims brain does not allow use of DNI, and a hybrid merge which destroys a lot of the neural connections which makes up memory, and should warp the circuitry rendering it inoperable allows for use of DNI?

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm still trying to figure out the goofiness that is spirit senses.

As dual-natured beings, they shouldn't have any more trouble viewing vid screens or photographs than any other dual-natured being... but for some reason, they can't. Same goes for what you mentioned. It's a whole bunch of nonsense that, somehow, is supposed to make it "balanced." Because, God forbid a materialized spirit be able to read a digital display. That's game breaking right there!

[Yerameyahu]

I'm fine with materialized spirits only having astral vision. They're pretty strong already, and they're spirits. It's fluffy. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[augmentin]

What's a Tomino? Or did you mean an Otomo? I'm thinking something a little more pink-mohawk.

Neraph beat me too it, but, yeah, a possessed Tomino is more or less the Omega Spawn you're looking for. If you go possession vs. inhabitation you can hot swap bodies as well.

[augmentin]

I'm fine with materialized spirits only having astral vision. They're pretty strong already, and they're spirits. It's fluffy. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

ditto

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm fine with materialized spirits only having astral vision. They're pretty strong already, and they're spirits. It's fluffy. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

The problem is that it's inconsistent and doesn't make any sense. They're viewing the physical realm. They're part of the physical realm. But, for some reason, a video screen is just too much for them -- and only them. Even your argument doesn't make any sense. How does a spirit being able to look at a monitor break the game? Why isn't it okay for them, but it is okay for ghouls or any other dual-natured being?

It's just... nonsensical.

[augmentin]

The problem is that it's inconsistent and doesn't make any sense. They're viewing the physical realm. They're part of the physical realm. But, for some reason, a video screen is just too much for them -- and only them. Even your argument doesn't make any sense. How does a spirit being able to look at a monitor break the game? Why isn't it okay for them, but it is okay for ghouls or any other dual-natured being?

It's just... nonsensical.

You're right, it just doesn't bother me.
It's fiction with highly abstract mechanics. Lots of things don't make sense. As long as it's internally consistent it doesn't ruin the fun.

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said, they're spirits. I think it makes sense and is fine. Can ghouls see video screens? I thought they were blind. So, I feel, are spirits.

[Tanegar]

As long as it's internally consistent it doesn't ruin the fun.

I think the point the good doctor is making is that it isn't internally consistent for one dual-natured being to be able to read an electronic display while another dual-natured being cannot. That's what internal consistency means.

[augmentin]

I think the point the good doctor is making is that it isn't internally consistent for one dual-natured being to be able to read an electronic display while another dual-natured being cannot. That's what internal consistency means.

Good point. I guess it just doesn't bother me. It's been with us since at least SR2 and I've just kind of accepted it as part of the setting.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't see how being dual-natured matters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't see how being dual-natured matters.

It doesn't, or at least Shouldn't... which is, I think, the point the good Doc is trying to make...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think so. He seems to be saying that being dual-natured means you can see physically. No reason for that.

[Ol' Scratch]

Uh, that's exactly what dual-natured means. Running Wild p. 205: "Several types of critters are dual-natured, allowing them to interact with the astral and physical planes equally. [...] Dual-natured beings are able to focus on either plane and shift their perceptions as a Free Action." Not to mention the countless other references to it.

[Yerameyahu]

No. A ghoul can't see in the physical, unless you get cyber eyes. Dual-natured means *interact*.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No. A ghoul can't see in the physical, unless you get cyber eyes. Dual-natured means *interact*.

A typical ghoul cannot see in the Physical, because he becomes Blind when the change occurs... so therefore he could not "See" regardless, unless he replaced his now useless eyes with Cyber Eyes, at which point he can SEE again, and can even see the screens of computers and such... it is not a Quality of being Dual Natured, it is a Quality of being Blind...

Keep the Faith