Surprise!, did you know I wanted to puch you? Options

[Red-ROM]

If your character is in a non combat situation, and suddenly makes an attack, does it invoke a surprise test? I think it is hinted at in the martial art Carromeleg.

[kzt]

It's more complex than that. People who are dangerous in HtH are difficult to attack by surprise, because they understand distances and are never quite in your range without making you take a step. When you take that step they flatten you.

[Whipstitch]

The first line of the surprise rules references characters appearing unexpectedly, and the ambushing rules say that characters who intend to ambush and are totally aware of their targets movements cannot be surprised, so I would hold that two parties who who intend to possibly harm each other won't really be rolling for Surprise provided they can see the other guy. But if you have some trust to abuse or they're simply careless? I could see myself ruling that you can get a +3 die bonus if not the full +6 Ambush bonus and a Surprise roll to see if you can sucker punch 'em.

That's just how I like running things though, and I admit it works well that way in part because I'm not inclined to rule that my players weren't prepared for an attack from a guy in plain sight, which avoids the nasty pitfall of making the players feel railroaded. Ruling that players are ambushed by a guy in plain sight seems like something that should be done sparingly, particularly since I don't really want to encourage the paranoid-at-all-times playstyle. But as the GM I'm uniquely qualified to decide when I think the NPCs wouldn't see that right hook coming, so I just play it by ear sometimes and give my players a clean shot at a guy if I think they played things cool enough from time to time. YMMV.

[Kid Chameleon]

The Shadowrun version of 'punch bug' must be a very different game indeed.

[Ol' Scratch]

The rules assume people are facing known enemies and on alert for an attack. When using that assumption, those rules make a little more sense. As a GM, however, you have to know when to bend/ignore the rules, and in this situation (assuming non-combat means non-hostile) you'd be justifiable in forcing a Surprise Test. Or at least a bonus on Initiative Tests.

[Dakka Dakka]

Ifd someon e attacks another character out of the blue, that character can be surprised. I wouldn't however give the attacker a bonus though.

[Yerameyahu]

I would.

Oh, you meant a bonus *apart* from Surprise? I misunderstood. Gaining Surprise is a huge bonus in itself.

[Ol' Scratch]

As I said, I'd do one or the other; either allow a Surprise Test or give a bonus to a normal Initiative Test. I don't see any reason it would warrant a bonus to the Surprise Test, however. If anything, there might be a slight penalty since the opposition is aware of the 'ambush,' they're just not ready for it. Hence there being a Surprise Test in the first place.

[Dakka Dakka]

No, I meant the +6 bonus for an ambush or the +3 proposed by Whipstitch. Calling for a surprise test is enough of an advantage for me. I wouldn't let the attacker be surprised as per normal surprise rules, however.

[Yerameyahu]

*nod*. It's definitely not an ambush, and I think just gaining Surprise at all is bonus enough. The use of a significant diversion might warrant some kind of sub-ambush bonus, though.

[Ol' Scratch]

Gotcha. Sorry.

[Dakka Dakka]

If however the attacker conceals his movements (stepping in to punch/readying a weapon) with some sort of diversion, this is a genuine ambush. Remember the Coffee Cup Ambush from Ronin?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If your character is in a non combat situation, and suddenly makes an attack, does it invoke a surprise test?

Not really. Especially not if the "non combat situation" involves sworn enemies or a heated argument.

What you are talking about is a standard initiative – unless the character won a stealth-skill opposed test against the victim in advance, in which case the target is unaware.

[Whipstitch]

No, I meant the +6 bonus for an ambush or the +3 proposed by Whipstitch. Calling for a surprise test is enough of an advantage for me. I wouldn't let the attacker be surprised as per normal surprise rules, however.

Yeah, I really only mentioned those numbers because the rules list a standard +6 bonus for a prepped ambush and a +3 bonus for not really having a plan set up but knowing that something could very well be about to go down. Anyway, the sort of situations we're talking about are so potentially varied that I'm sure we could all come up with any number of exceptional situations where one bonus or the other would seem appropriate or completely insane depending on the context, so there's definitely no hard feelings on my end. Hell, I can't even blame the devs either. Deciding what sort of dice bonus is appropriate for suddenly attacking your dinner partner with a salad fork is the sort of thing they just don't teach in high school.

[Red-ROM]

I was thinking about this for a social infiltrator that uses an arsenal of drugs. He has a palming of 6 and a con of 4(seduction 6)

I was wondering how the mechanics would go for slipping a slap patch onto someone while talking to them(he also has a cybergland in his cyber hand)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Palming, plain and simple.

[RedFish]

I was thinking about this for a social infiltrator that uses an arsenal of drugs. He has a palming of 6 and a con of 4(seduction 6)

I was wondering how the mechanics would go for slipping a slap patch onto someone while talking to them(he also has a cybergland in his cyber hand)

Seduction is under con? How does that work?

"Oh yeah, I totally wanna get it on, baby."

5 minutes later, in the hotel room...

"Psyche! I'm into guys. See ya, sweet cheeks."

[Dakka Dakka]

You got it wrong, funny two-liner though.

to seduce
1. To beguile or lure someone away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. To lead astray.
2. To entice or induce someone to engage in a sexual relationship
3. To win over or attract someone

Now if at least 1 and 2 aren't part of Con I don't know what is.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Dakka Dakka, that's what I mean. RAW, an ambush requires you to 'lie in wait', so I'd give skillful diversions a lesser bonus (2-4?).

No, Whipstitch, it mentions a +3 bonus *for the Defender* "if they have been alerted in some way".

Haha, how is Seduction *not* Con? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Catadmin]

I was wondering how the mechanics would go for slipping a slap patch onto someone while talking to them(he also has a cybergland in his cyber hand)

I'd count this under palming & stealth, not under con or seduction. And it certainly wouldn't earn a surprise bonus or an ambush bonus. You don't want them to notice. Surprise indicates the target DOES notice.

At least to me, it does.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, it depends if he just wants to get the patch on (a Surprise attack), or if he wants the application of the patch to be unnoticed. Replace 'stim patch' with 'injection' and you can see that it all depends.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It's still a stealth test to get an unaware target.

[Yerameyahu]

My point is that Surprise could still be the goal, because it depends.

[Red-ROM]

so how about this,
Palming vs targets perception, if I win, they're unaware they've been dosed

If I lose, it becomes a touch attack, roll initiative, suprise roll applied if the target's attitude towards me is friendly enough.(they could roll vs con or make a judge intentions roll)

I still think its an ambush if the target isn't expecting it, but I understand the dangers of having NPC's start hitting players out of the blue like that. Of course, any ambush by NPCs would be devistating, so it really wouldn't be anything new.

[Yerameyahu]

It really seems like the +6 Ambush in the book specifically refers to lying in wait for some period of time, but it makes sense that you could do a different bonus if the character *really* sets something up.