Destruction of New York, a theoretical discussion Options

[Wraith235]

the topic is what it is ...

before you start freaking out

I assure you that the ability is out there to level a whole city or at least a Sizable portion of one ...

and yes it is available to land in a players hand

so my question is .... how would one handle this .... aside from the Obvious Noterity and public awareness gain of 10+ for the simple act ....the Mana Ebbs / Voids extending from the epicenter due to the massive and sudden loss of Life as well as character retirement becoming mandatory

[TeaTime]

Hmmm... is this an SRM in-game threat against NYC?
If the gauntlet has been thrown, I suspect PCs themselves would not take kindly to being vaporized....

[LurkerOutThere]

the topic is what it is ...

before you start freaking out

I assure you that the ability is out there to level a whole city or at least a Sizable portion of one ...

and yes it is available to land in a players hand

so my question is .... how would one handle this .... aside from the Obvious Noterity and public awareness gain of 10+ for the simple act ....the Mana Ebbs / Voids extending from the epicenter due to the massive and sudden loss of Life as well as character retirement becoming mandatory

Citation needed.

[Wraith235]

in SRM under the Invoking Rules

an Earth spirit with the appropriate success test gains Quake

Quake as listed on p 102

Reads as follows

Quake
Type: P • Action:Complex •Range:Special •Duration: Instant
The spirit can create earthquakes with potentially devastating
effects in areas which are particularly vulnerable to them.
The quake affects an area with a radius of (spirit’s Force) kilometers,and
the shaking persists intermittently for (Force) minutes.
Areas especially vulnerable to earthquakes are usually not areas
that receive them frequently, as people in those areas tend to
build dwellings with earthquakes in mind. An earthquake that
has little effect in the San Francisco might be very destructive
were it in Istanbul. The spirit makes a Magic+Willpower Test
and the number of hits represents the magnitude of the quake, as
noted on the Quake Table (p.101).


the quake table is also as follows

QUAKE TABLE
While the effects of an individual quake are highly dependent upon
the conditions of surrounding soil, the quality of engineering, and the
preparedness of the surrounding citizenry, the following vague guidelines
can be used:
Hits Effects
1 Motion detectors useless for the duration; sleeping people awaken.
2 Top-heavy objects fall; unlatched doors and windows swing open or shut.
3 Furniture shifts; objects fall of shelves in bulk; drivers of land vehicles must make Vehicle Tests.
4 Ordinary buildings damaged; doors jam; mine fields detonate.
5 Furniture overturns; windows break;entire area considered diffcult ground.
6 Freestanding fences, walls, and trees sag or fall over; gas lines are unsafe.
7 Roadways become impassable;some buildings collapse.
8 Many buildings collapse, crevasses appear in pavement and open ground.

now when we look at this .... the proposed Idea is a Force 8 invoked Earth ... giving a Radius of 8km or a Diameter of 16km (or 9.94193908 miles).....

now Imagine that a possession tradition with the channeling metamagic feat is involved where the spirit possesses the Magician and the magician uses his own edge to augment the spirits use of the power

now place this into downtown Manhattan ....

I am by no means a Geoligist ... but my own research into this via Wiki and all that makes the prospect of this for me a tad scary .... In the example of the Quake it mentions Istanbul .... being that Istanbul
is on the North side of Turkey while the Closest tectonic plate is south of Turkeys southern most border I Reason that the Idea of this is indeed possible ... as well as the fact that there have been Earthquakes in the new york area before with the largest recorded being a 5.8 on the Richtor scale in 1944

now lets get into the approximate energy equivalents in terms of TNT explosive force... this energy is released underground so that the force is dispersed through the earths crust ....

a magnitude 8.0 Earthquake is 15 megatons
a magnitude 9.0 Earthquake is 476 megatons
10.0 is around 15 gigatons
then the Yucatán Peninsula impact which created the Chicxulub crater (credited with the extinction of the dinosaurs) was estimated at 13.0 magnitude and 476 teratons (no this was not an earthquake but is included as an estimate of the force of this type of event)

The Following is an Excerpt from a yahoo answers about a magnitude 10.0 Earthquake

"It is thought that the energy required to cause the earth's crust to fail (ie, a measure of the maximum energy that can be stored in the crust before it gives way) is somewhere between magnitude 9 and 10, and therefore an earthquake of magnitude 10 would not occur."


A friend asked me "Why are you applying science to an RPG when the Word Magic comes into it" the answer is The end Effect can be measured scientifically

so based on all of this .... how would one handle such an event

[TeaTime]

Ah, yes. That was a considered option during a recent demolition themed run, and rejected for causing too much collateral damage. Someone attempting this wouldn't be very long for the world, even if they were successful...

So, did this actually happen in your own SRM universe, or are you advocating this as a method of mass destruction?

[Backgammon]

Well this debate came up when the Quake power was first introduced in Shadowrun. The problem is the Quake power, not what you could do with it in Manhattan, specifically.

If you're the type of GM to not somehow bar this power from being used to it's full potential, then there isn't really anything to say. The PCs do it, part of Manhattan is levelled, econo-politcal balances shift, UCAS invades under the pretext of 'helping', etc. The ramifications are well beyond the scope of SRM. You either decide that someone, somewhere sees this coming and stops the player from doing it, or Manhattan is destroyed.

[Wasabi]

Or a whole bunch of free spirits and astrally projecting cops spend an Edge to go first and nuke the posessing mage using their unpublished, unlimited stats.

Just because you can escalate a situation doesn't mean you should...

[Wraith235]

Well this debate came up when the Quake power was first introduced in Shadowrun. The problem is the Quake power, not what you could do with it in Manhattan, specifically.

If you're the type of GM to not somehow bar this power from being used to it's full potential, then there isn't really anything to say. The PCs do it, part of Manhattan is levelled, econo-politcal balances shift, UCAS invades under the pretext of 'helping', etc. The ramifications are well beyond the scope of SRM. You either decide that someone, somewhere sees this coming and stops the player from doing it, or Manhattan is destroyed.

the question is not weather I "Would" Allow it .... its that this would be a missions char and as Missions is a Global Campaign and as such I cant Disallow it

I was unaware that this Debate has come up before ... tho I dont doubt it did as this is potentially the most destructive power I have seen in SR4

[Backgammon]

Personnaly, I would downplay the effects. "Manhattan buildings are meant to survive quakes". Sure, it would be massive damage, but I wouldn't play it as strong as it is supposed to be. Would the player be disapointed? Probably. It's either that or you wreck manhattan, and next week there is no mention of it. In either case, it won't really work well.

[Wraith235]

good news is this is all theoretical ATM ... nothing has happened yet ... I was approached with this concept last wed night and began a LOT of research on massive quakes trying to find stuff out ... Hell we haven't even cleared Denver yet

my main thing here was .... how would it be handled and I got my answer ....

[KarmaInferno]

So, would the small armies of elementals that the Corps in NY have on hand be able to do anything to negate this Quake?



-karma

[SaintHax]

now Imagine that a possession tradition with the channeling metamagic feat is involved where the spirit possesses the Magician and the magician uses his own edge to augment the spirits use of the power

Channelling doesn't allow this, unless it's stated in an errata. As written in SM, you share control of the vessal's motor skills, and the possessed can use his own skills. Everything else follows standard possession, and that doesn't allow sharing Edge. This is academic, b/c I believe in the last game I GM'd a player bound a greater form force 11 spirit (not earth though), so it's possible to get a spirit large enough to have 8 net hits.

So, would the small armies of elementals that the Corps in NY have on hand be able to do anything to negate this Quake?

First, a major city like this would be built to with stand this power. I'm sure a mad bomber tried this more than once. Second, it's very likely that with all the divination, that both corp and NYPD would have a warning a week out. I could see a montly, "Anything going to destroy my corp/city this month" divination being asked as a safty protocol.

[KarmaInferno]

First, a major city like this would be built to with stand this power. I'm sure a mad bomber tried this more than once. Second, it's very likely that with all the divination, that both corp and NYPD would have a warning a week out. I could see a montly, "Anything going to destroy my corp/city this month" divination being asked as a safty protocol.

Heh. I would completely agree with you.

Except. Well.

One word:

Bridge.



-karma

[Wraith235]

Channelling doesn't allow this, unless it's stated in an errata. As written in SM, you share control of the vessal's motor skills, and the possessed can use his own skills. Everything else follows standard possession, and that doesn't allow sharing Edge. This is academic, b/c I believe in the last game I GM'd a player bound a greater form force 11 spirit (not earth though), so it's possible to get a spirit large enough to have 8 net hits.

ok so at least that removes the use of edge from the equation because I know for sure that a spirit of nature (Earth) while would allow its power to be used to Wreak havoc on new york ... causing permenant damage to the Earth in the form of something with the sheer power of the Yukitan impact is not something it would allow ....

First, a major city like this would be built to with stand this power. I'm sure a mad bomber tried this more than once. Second, it's very likely that with all the divination, that both corp and NYPD would have a warning a week out. I could see a monthly, "Anything going to destroy my corp/city this month" divination being asked as a safty protocol.

and TBH I doubt New York would be prepared for something like this .... with the Mention of Istanbul in the description of quake using Tectonic maps ... Istanbul is Closer to a fault line than New York.... but I do see your point


also which spell allows this sort of advanced Warning point it out to me and you may very Well Save New York

[nezumi]

NYC was already levelled by a quake. Most likely, the new buildings are all fairly quake resistant. I'd look at the big quakes out around LA and treat it very similar. There is plenty of destruction, death, fires, etc. Response moves in faster, however, and the fires are put out quickly. With so much security, there's not a lot of rioting. And all of the places with money are well protected, so minimal damage there.

Tie that in with how the US responded to 9/11. Within about two days they know who did it, have sent shamans to the earth metaplane to get your signature and chat up the spirit involved. They know where you are going. They are happy to ship anyone you know overseas for a vacation chat for a few years. They have cameras in every airport watching for you and a hundred million nuyen reward for any smuggler who brings you in. Since it isn't the UCAS after you but the corporations who now own NYC, it wouldn't be limited to just UCAS territory either - it would be everywhere the corporations operate (and it would be all of the corporations.) Within a week you're caught. Then they'll make an awfully nice show about how much it sucks to spend your own overseas vacation in Atzlan for a few years.

[Wraith235]

NYC was already levelled by a quake.

Source ?

[DWC]

Source ?

It's been a canon event since the original SR. Manhattan was devastated by an earthquake in 2005, which is why the Stock Exchange was moved to Boston until the 2nd Crash. The city was rebuilt by the members of the MDC on top of the rubble of the old Manhattan.

[Wraith235]

huh so it is .... 1 part of the history I seemed to have missed

[LurkerOutThere]

Additionally great form earth spirits were used in the raising of buildings like the flat iron building to their post quake city level, as a GM I would have no qualms about telling the PC it doesn't work as there are great forms on call to coutner such an event. However my fix for this is:

Look the player right in the eye and say firmly and calmly; "Don't be a dick."

If they persist firmly and calmly tell them to leave the table and not return until they value your and the other players time. A requirement to let things work by the rules isn't a free license to ruin things for the other 4-5 people at the table, the same fix that works in a home game works here. This is my standard policy for dealign with disruptive players regardless of type, because we all know that guy, that guy who wants to pick a fight with the other PC's because they didn't choose his "brilliant" plan, why let that guy run the show, you are the GM, the show stops with you.

[WingKnight]

My take on it would be to have the spirit flat out refuse or at the very least have a passing free spirit walk over and give someone a slapping at the vital moment. No magical being in their right mind would allow the kind of background count/rift to be created in their back yard. Such an extraordinary act requires far more than your average spirit summoning/binding i.e. the great Ghost Dance ritual.

[Backgammon]

Hmm, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered. A run-of-the-mill, non-toxic spirit might refuse to perform destruction on this scale. Then again, why have the Quake power in the first place, it's inherently mass-destructive. Could be argued quakes are natually occuring in the first place and mother nature is a tough bitch. Could go either way, really.

[Wasabi]

WingKnight, you're brilliant.

[SaintHax]

My take on it would be to have the spirit flat out refuse or at the very least have a passing free spirit walk over and give someone a slapping at the vital moment. No magical being in their right mind would allow the kind of background count/rift to be created in their back yard. Such an extraordinary act requires far more than your average spirit summoning/binding i.e. the great Ghost Dance ritual.

The Ghost Dance was to unleash magic, not to command a spirit. The rules clearly state that the spirit obeys you, no where does it even mention they have a D&D Efreeti like chance to twist your wording. I'd personally find your answer deux ex machina and I'd be very disappointed. I'd rather be told "No. Don't be a dick" than have the rules twisted against my character.

Normal spirits are also not bound to a place on this plane, its backyard is a metaplane somewhere.

[LurkerOutThere]

While I obviously prefer my method I believe you could definitely make the case for a great form spirit having more will and concern then a run of the mill spirit, of course you could just as easily make the argument that it might come up with a personality that won't give a crap about causing destruction a spirit that might enjoy it. Non-toxic does not necessarily equal good.

There are two basic things that need to be addressed here.

Nothing new under the sun theory: Just because something is out there and theoretically possible your character is likely not the first to think of it, why doesn't it happen all the time? I think a GM has a right to come up with plausable reasons why things wouldn't work. Three times now completely independant of each other I've had characters come to me wanting to use the chemistry skill/nanites/whatever to get through walls. I always have to explore with them the potential downsides and draw backs, the usual easy fix is substituting one problem for another. THeir wall eating solution is silent but creates a horrible smell, is too expensive to be used for most runs etc etc. I feel earthquake falls into that category.

Consequences: I believe that Shadowrun even more then most RPG's is about infinite choices but also the consequences that go along with. Missions partially because of constraints of the medium doesn't always reflect that. I do not believe that is a free license to run roughshod over things. I do not believe for example if in monkeywrench the team decides to ambush the oncoming security in the parking lot that NYPD inc might not roll an appropriate resposne for a large scale gunfight in broad daylight in downtown manhattan. I believe that a GM has the duty and the right to come up with realistic responses to characters actions and try and shift things back to the mod. For things like this that are so outside the pale I think the best option is an out of character one.


That's my take on it.

[kzt]

Tie that in with how the US responded to 9/11. Within about two days they know who did it, have sent shamans to the earth metaplane to get your signature and chat up the spirit involved. They know where you are going. They are happy to ship anyone you know overseas for a vacation chat for a few years. They have cameras in every airport watching for you and a hundred million nuyen reward for any smuggler who brings you in. Since it isn't the UCAS after you but the corporations who now own NYC, it wouldn't be limited to just UCAS territory either - it would be everywhere the corporations operate (and it would be all of the corporations.) Within a week you're caught. Then they'll make an awfully nice show about how much it sucks to spend your own overseas vacation in Atzlan for a few years.

And if you are not caught a ritual assassination team will cause each of you to start exploding in a spectacularly destructive fashion a few days later.