Cyberlimb Attributes Options

[WarpedAzz]

Hi,
I'm a first time poster so please be gentle!

I'm trying to wrap my head around cyberlimb attributes and how they interact with the characters standard attributes. The one giving me the most trouble is Bod.
Ok, lets see if I have this right.

If my natural bod is 4 and I have a single cyberlimb with a bod of 6 I use the average, 5, for damage resistance tests.
But if I get a second limb with a bod of 4, effetively replacing same for same, my average is now 14/3 or 4. so putting in a second limb withth e exact same body has a negative effect. Is that right?

What about a troll with a natural body of 8 and an optimised limb with a body of 12. His average is 10. But if he gets a second limb with a bod of 9, higher than that he is replacing, his average actually goes down to 9 (29/3).

Is that how you guys are playing it? or are you using some alternative?

I ask because I'm making a troll samurai and I have always had a fascination for cyberlimbs, but I'm trying to see how it will all work.

thanks.

[Teulisch]

not exactly... its complicated.

you have 6 limbs (2 arms, 2 legs, head, amd torso). find the value for each, add them up, and divide by 6. this gives you the real 'average', which matters for body to wear armor, soak damage, and the like. with a natural body of 4 and a single cyberlimb with a 6, this becomes (4+4+4+4+4+6)/6= 26/6= 4.33, round down to 4. the 6 only counts as 6 if that specific limb is used (such as with a called shot).

[Possession Mage]

The limbs attributes should only be used when it's the limb in question directly doing or having something done to it. The average rule is only when multiple limbs are in use. Say you grab a post with a non cyber arm and the back of a car with a cyber arm. You use the average STR score. If you stuck your arm in the way of a blade, the GM may allow you to use the body of the cyberlimb for your soak roll instead of your own body. (Never went into cyber much, but this was always my understanding of it)

Edit: By average I mean the average of the 2 limbs used. So say you had 4 str and a 6 str arm. It would be 5. I think you also always round down. So digging in your feet and grabbing a rope with your cyber arm would give you 4+4+6/3=4.666 or 4.

[Warlordtheft]

Another example is a swing with your sord and the cyber arm's strength is 6. You'd use the 6 as the sword is primarily being swung with the arm so the arms's attribute is the only one that matters.

This is important for armor as well (IE to cyberarms with a 3 armor would add 1 to your ballistic and impact armor). A called shot to the arm would be a +3.

Also note with limb you get 1 extra damage box too.

[Possession Mage]

Okay, checked in book and see what you mean, it does seem a little poorly covered (this is not from sr4a...I will need to check this tomorrow...)

Critical George has Body 3, Strength 4,
and Agility 2. He has a cybertorso with a Body 6,
Strength 5, and Agility 3, a left cyberarm with Body
3, Strength 7, Agility 3, and a left cyberleg with Body
5, Strength 3, and Agility 3. If he punches someone
in the face with his left arm, he uses Agility 3 on the
attack test and Strength 7 for calculating his damage.
If he wants to run down a hallway—requiring
careful coordination of both legs—he makes his
Running + Strength Test using the lower Strength of
3. If he gets shot, however, he uses the average value of
his Body attributes, rounded down—in this case, 4.

So using Teulisch's calculation, (3+3+3+3) for right arm, each leg and head and (5+6) for leg and body. (3+3+3+3+5+6)/6 = 3.83 or 3. As the example gives it at 4 it suggests (3+5+6)/3 = 4.66.

[WarpedAzz]

I
I thought that calculation for the example would be 3 for nat bod
+6 for cyber torso
+3 for cyber arm (just becaue it is the same as the natural bod shouldnt it still be a seperate item for the average?)
+5 for cyber leg
total 17/4 = 4.25

I suppose it makes sense to avreage the stat over all the limbs but it really seems to nerf any extra attrriubte points above your basic. Seems more likely your attribute would go down than up.


I didnt realise you avereage the armor as well. Reading the FAQ it simply states that you add it to your other armor.
I have no problem with the Str attribute for the arm that is hitting etc, it is this averaging that is throwing me.

[Possession Mage]

Oops, yep, I missed the cyber arm. (6+3+5+3)/4 = 4.25...that's correct. So you add base stat and the stat of each limb.

For body for the purposes of soak, it is kind of weak. However, this is only for soak values. I don't recall any rules on the armour and it's in my mind that the armour is only there for the limb and doesn't add to your overall. As it doesn't state it clearly in the same section, I will need to pull out augmentation or sr4a to see if either clarify.

[Yerameyahu]

Yup, it's a weird system. The alternative is just as bad, though: armor 50/50? By the rules, you *do* average all 5 'limbs' for attributes, when relevant. For Body (damage resistance), all 5 are relevant; for coordinated things (running), just the involved limbs; for unarmed, possibly just one limb.

Yes, it's pretty hard to make a strong/tough person significantly stronger/tougher.

Right, I should have made that clearer: attributes means the physical B.A.R.S. stats. But I was talking about tests, and there are no armor tests. The idea of 50/50 personal armor remains insane, though. I see no reason not to average it.

[dirkformica]

Armor is not an attribute, so it shouldn't be averaged.

[Banaticus]

http://sites.google.com/site/banaticussr4a/ -- all cyberlimbs, but just make each "real limb" be what your real body is and see what the average body is. Download either the Excel version or the Open Office version.

[WarpedAzz]

The 50/50 armor is pretty crazy. The imagery Im getting is one bullet splitting into 6 parts and trying to penetrate all armor all over simultaneosuly. Pretty silly.

So the upshot is for a cyberlimb to have any positive effect on a characters bod for soak it needs to be 6 points higher than his base. Any subsequent cyberlimb needs to be at at least this average not to drop it by a point.

Wow, that is pretty harsh.
Considering when you hit someone you arent really just using your arm, but just the arm's STR and AGI is used in game for the attack, it is super harsh.

As per the raw it is a pretty cheap way of increasing your armor. Who would bother with Dermal?

[Teulisch]

well, cyberlimbs are rather essence-expensive to start with, and a properly customized limb is really expensive in cost. but then a human can get a 9/9/9 limb at availibility 22, which can be nice. get partial limbs and they dont impact your 'average' overall as much, but still give the extra physical box.

the dermal cyber is still a better choice for cost, and cyberlimb armor has other issues in and of itself- capacity. armor is not always your best choice as capacity goes, even if you could get a lot of it. at best, you could get +24/+24 from cyberlimb armor if you have all 6 limbs and an obvious cyberskull. i dont know where you get your 50/50 number from. certainly not something a starting character could have.

[Sengir]

The 50/50 armor is pretty crazy. The imagery Im getting is one bullet splitting into 6 parts and trying to penetrate all armor all over simultaneosuly.

Armour rating in SR is just an abstract concept to describe how survivable a character is, and that does not just apply to cyberlimb armour. A ballistic vest adds its full rating despite only covering the torso, so does a helmet which only covers a really small part of the body.

Who would bother with Dermal?

People who want to keep their body more or less intact? Same as with retinal mods, cybereyes are better by the numbers but the idea of having your eyes replaced with steel balls migh not please everybody.

[WarpedAzz]

Armour rating in SR is just an abstract concept to describe how survivable a character is, and that does not just apply to cyberlimb armour. A ballistic vest adds its full rating despite only covering the torso, so does a helmet which only covers a really small part of the body.


People who want to keep their body more or less intact? Same as with retinal mods, cybereyes are better by the numbers but the idea of having your eyes replaced with steel balls migh not please everybody.

Fair enough call on both points

[Synner]

For the record as of SR4A cyberlimb armor was not meant to be averaged.

[Sengir]

Also for the record, armour and extra overflow boxes from cyberhands/feet should be houseruled away, (ab)using that really screws up the balance.

[Stahlseele]

No, it should not. Magic should be house-ruled instead. For each point of Magic attribute above 4, you get -2 dice to social skill rolls. because you're a freak of nature.

[Warlordtheft]

For the record as of SR4A cyberlimb armor was not meant to be averaged.

Drek---edition creep strikes again!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

No, it should not.

isn't it a pity that common sense ain't RAW?

[Stahlseele]

Yes it is.
But making cyber(limbs) worse than it allready is in comparsion to magic does not sit well with me.

[Sengir]

Right, we make cyberlimbs better by allowing people to gain the advantages of cyberlimbs without replacing more than their hands...sounds reasonable, just like 8/8 armour for everybody willing to pay 1 Essence and 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Considering that 1 point essence is 1/6th of your total and maximum essence, it's a fair price.
Furthermore in a single hand, you can only get 2? with Bulk-Enhancement i think 4 oits of Armor. If at all.
And if you don't want to do a complete rewrite of the combat and armor system which will lead to everybody shooting for eyes, nose, mouth and ears because there is no armor in these spots, then yes, you basically do parry the bullets with your ferrus manus.
In comparsion, why does magical armor like the adept armor or the armor spell cover the complete body with much less disadvantages?

[Teulisch]

partial limbs do seem to have a lot of advantages over full limbs. especially when you get into modular lower arms. the lower arm capacity of 10 (or 5), allows for a combination of armor and other mods. 4 armor, a gyromount, and room for something else. dont like what you have installed today? swap it for a different module! synthetic today with a large smugglers compartment, obvious tomorrow full of combat mods. No other cyberware has that kind of flexibility. you can even start adding in a variety of situationaly useful implants this way- even a nanohive.

its worth the essence if you have the money.

[Sengir]

Considering that 1 point essence is 1/6th of your total and maximum essence, it's a fair price.

Considering the usual cost and other limitations (encumberance, very limited stacking) it is a bargain price for a flat +8 to whatever other armour you have, no strings attached. Not just for mundanes, Adepts also gain far more (four times to be exact) from burning one point of magic than they would get from investing it into Mystical Armour.

In short, once players have figured that one out and the GM allows it, armour ratings start at 8 and condition monitors at 12 + Body/2. Been there, done that, sucks big time.

And if you don't want to do a complete rewrite of the combat and armor system

Why do you need to rewrite the combat system? Simply don't allow armour on hands and feet, strike out the extra boxes on the condition monitor, problem solved. Players can still get tough as SK steel, they just need to leave a bit more of their body at the local chop shop.

[Mäx]

Right, we make cyberlimbs better by allowing people to gain the advantages of cyberlimbs without replacing more than their hands...sounds reasonable, just like 8/8 armour for everybody willing to pay 1 Essence and 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

thats so cheap only if they're contend at having only agility 3/body 3/strenght 3 arms and foots.