Mind Probe Options

[Dakka Dakka]

At least one person knows, and has the power to communicate. After that who knows what will happen? It has nothing to do with dice mechanics or game rules, but how the GM and players work out what happens in the game world. Most likely some variation of Geek the Mage.

Well, unless the victim isn't surprised and beats the mage at initiative, he can only start yelling after the mage has finished casting the spell. By then he will look normally to normal perception. Only astral perception can detect a sustained spell, and even then cannot identify it as Mind Probe. An astral signature can't be used either to identify the spell. All those two methods can deduce is that the person is subject of a detection spell, which could just as well be one of the enhanced perception spells to find the mind prober, the lunatic is yelling about.

BTW where does it say that the vicitm becomes aware of the probing of his mind?

[Runner Smurf]

I have had to seriously nerf this spell in my games. Not just from a in-game balance issue, but simply from a world-cohesion level. Intelligence agencies and conspiracies would simply have no way to operate in a world where magic like this existed. As described in the rules, any agent at any time could be completely compromised, with little ability to identify who has attacked you. At the same time, organizations with magicians on staff would institute periodic or random probes of key employees to ensure that they weren't even thinking about betraying the corporation. It just seems too disruptive to allow to exist...and any mage in Shadowrun who doesn't take the spell should be shot on general principal. It's way to useful to not take.

So, I've instituted the following changes:
1. The spell is by touch only. It's basically a vulcan mind meld. You have to grab the target's head and hold it in your hands.
2. The spell is extraordinarily painful for the target, and not very pleasant for the caster.
3. I've raised the drain code by 2.
4. There is the potential for reverse-flow of information. If (as unlikely as the possibility is), the target gets more hits than the caster, the target can start to read the caster's thoughts.
5. If the caster or the target glitches, all bets are off. Mental negative qualities may be acquired.

Basically, I've made the Mind Probe spell the equivalent of a Mind Rape. And I've made it clear that this is how the spell is viewed in Shadowrun. People can use it, but they should feel dirty when they do so - and more than a little nervous.

- Runner Smurf

[DireRadiant]

BTW where does it say that the vicitm becomes aware of the probing of his mind?

p. 207 SR4A
"Mind Probe (Active, Directional)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2
This spell allows the subject to telepathically probe the mind of a specific
target within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast).
The target is aware of the probing, though they may not know the
source of the spell. If the caster gains one or more net hits, consult the
Mind Probe Results table for the information gained.
The subject may probe for one piece of information per Complex
Action. Additional uses of Mind Probe against the same target within
a number of hours equal to the target’s Willpower are at a –2 dice pool
modifier per previous Spellcasting attempt."

[DireRadiant]

Only astral perception can detect a sustained spell, and even then cannot identify it as Mind Probe.

Noticing Magic is not limited to only the moment of starting spell casting. It's the use of the magical skill, which takes the entire complex action.

An astral signature can't be used either to identify the spell.

True enough, but the Astral signature is available for hours, and will allow any astral observer to identify the spell caster, and can actually be captured in an astral photograph.

[Redcrow]

I have had to seriously nerf this spell in my games. Not just from a in-game balance issue, but simply from a world-cohesion level. Intelligence agencies and conspiracies would simply have no way to operate in a world where magic like this existed. As described in the rules, any agent at any time could be completely compromised, with little ability to identify who has attacked you. At the same time, organizations with magicians on staff would institute periodic or random probes of key employees to ensure that they weren't even thinking about betraying the corporation. It just seems too disruptive to allow to exist...and any mage in Shadowrun who doesn't take the spell should be shot on general principal. It's way to useful to not take.

So, I've instituted the following changes:
1. The spell is by touch only. It's basically a vulcan mind meld. You have to grab the target's head and hold it in your hands.
2. The spell is extraordinarily painful for the target, and not very pleasant for the caster.
3. I've raised the drain code by 2.
4. There is the potential for reverse-flow of information. If (as unlikely as the possibility is), the target gets more hits than the caster, the target can start to read the caster's thoughts.
5. If the caster or the target glitches, all bets are off. Mental negative qualities may be acquired.

Basically, I've made the Mind Probe spell the equivalent of a Mind Rape. And I've made it clear that this is how the spell is viewed in Shadowrun. People can use it, but they should feel dirty when they do so - and more than a little nervous.

- Runner Smurf

I like this a lot and it puts the spell much more in line with the way I had envisioned it working and providing enough built-in drawbacks to keep it from being used too frequently. I may have to steal it and offer it to my player as an alternative to losing the spell altogether. Its also nice to know I'm not the only one who sees a problem with the RAW for this spell and its potential for abuse.

[Jaid]

Well, unless the victim isn't surprised and beats the mage at initiative, he can only start yelling after the mage has finished casting the spell. By then he will look normally to normal perception. Only astral perception can detect a sustained spell, and even then cannot identify it as Mind Probe. An astral signature can't be used either to identify the spell. All those two methods can deduce is that the person is subject of a detection spell, which could just as well be one of the enhanced perception spells to find the mind prober, the lunatic is yelling about.

BTW where does it say that the vicitm becomes aware of the probing of his mind?

right in the spell description.

The target is aware of the probing

and there is still a really, really, really good chance for the mage to be noticed casting. let's suppose the mage is casting a force 4 mind probe (need 3 net hits, and the target could quite plausibly generate 1 hit on the resistance test. in fact, the mage is cutting it close, because 2 hits on the resistance test is also fairly likely, but we're giving the benefit of the doubt).

now, there is a threshold of 2 to notice the spellcasting. the dicepool is that of the highest observer, +1 per person in the group, to a maximum of 5. so the patrons as a whole, presuming they start with a dicepool of zero (which i think is a very generous assumption for the mage), will have a dicepool of 5 to perceive the magician casting. and this isn't counting the possibility of the bouncers (and the rest of the employees, who will be assisting the bouncers) noticing it.

about the most you can consistently get away with casting in public and nobody noticing is force 2 spells. if you're tossing around force 4+ on a regular basis, expect to get noticed after a few times.

[Redcrow]

I don't see how it would be an easy thing to spot a spellcaster using Mind Probe on someone in a crowded room like a bar or nightclub at any Force. I think a few posters in this thread are imagining this taking place in a small bar with maybe a dozen or two people most of which are either close friends of the target or bystanders waiting to jump to their aid at the first mention of (possibly magical) trouble. What about a crowded bar/nightclub with a couple hundred people jam-packed inside and the music thundering so loud that everyone is screaming to be heard rendering any audible complaint from the victim initially fruitless. How long does it take now for the victim to weave their way through the crowd to get the attention of a bouncer or someone else who might (or might not) be able to help and then how long does it take for them to scan over a couple hundred people to try and pick out who might be doing something they shouldn't be. I also don't envision most bartenders with their hand permanently poised above a panicbutton so that within seconds of someone yelling Mind Rape they can push it. Also, in the typical meat-market type nightclubs there is generally a lot of staring going on, so one face in the crowd isn't going to stick out too much.

What if the caster isn't even in the bar, but across the street looking in through a window. Now scanning the bar is a waste of time and using the panicbutton has just ruined any chance of physically catching the caster. How about a target who leaves the nightclub and is probed from a random window in one of several buildings or skyscrapers (I almost typed scryscaper, heh) in the area or a dark secluded shadow somewhere. There are numerous places and opportunities where Mind Probe can be too easily abused with little consequence. The caster could even be driving by in a car and in the few seconds it takes the target to realize what is happening and react, the caster has already gained some useful information and driven right on by.

Even if casting at a higer Force did make it easier to spot the caster, why wouldn't the caster just use a lower Force spell and supplement their dice pool with Edge or a spell Focus in order to make it less obvious. Especially consering the illegal nature of the spell. The actual Force of the spell isn't really all that important. Generating the 3 net hits to gain full access to the targets mind is all that really matters. So, conceivably you could cast the spell at Force 1 or 2 making it difficult to Notice and supplement your DP in some other way in order to increase your chance of success. No matter how you look at it, in most circumstances gaining 3 net hits vs. someone not magically active or guarded by someone who is is relatively easy and finding the offender can be much more difficult than simply scanning the area by which time the caster has probably already learned what they needed and is no longer sustaining the spell.

Also, the spell description doesn't make any mention that the target would have even the vaguest idea of what information the caster was looking for. It could either be what they had for lunch or the self-destruct code for the Death Star. If the target of the spell was an important enough person, then sure KE/LS might look into it after the fact, but if its not someone they deem to be important then at most they would simply fill out a report and file it away under "less important things to worry about".

[DireRadiant]

Hundreds of witnesses, some of which may be awakened themselves...

If you choose to have KE/LS and society treat Mind Rape as inconsequential then so it shall be.

Edit: If you choose to not have in game consequences to balance the use of a powerful spell, then yes, you are going to need to balance it some other way. Note that this is your choice based on you and your groups perception of imbalance of the spell. It's not my view. I don't regard Mind Probe as unbalanced. It hasn't ruined any of my games. There are plenty of tools and consequences to make players consider the tradeoffs. In my mind taking Mind Probe as a spell is just the same as if a player chooses Troll as a metatype. There will be consequences of such choices.

[Redcrow]

Hundreds of witnesses, some of which may be awakened themselves...

Witnesses to what exactly? Should I have every awakened NPC around constantly Astrally Perceiving for possible threats. Mind Probe literally takes seconds to perform, so by the time the target is able to raise enough of an alarm that an awakened bystander might decided to check things out Astrally (assuming they even have Astral Perception), the caster is likely already finished and headed for the door or lost in the crowd.

If you choose to have KE/LS and society treat Mind Rape as inconsequential then so it shall be.

So by your standards the spell is more important than the target. So basically you would have KE/LS work just as hard to solve the case if the victim were a prostitute as they would if the victim were the Governor? Murder is a pretty serious crime too, but KE/LS don't work nearly as hard (at least in my game) to solve every gang-bangers death like they would to find out who killed a politician or corp. executive. Then again, crime tends to be more rampant in my games considering that is one of the underlying themes. As such, not every crime can be investigated with equal vigor.

[Udoshi]

I don't see how it would be an easy thing to spot a spellcaster using Mind Probe on someone in a crowded room like a bar or nightclub at any Force.

Spotting spellcasting is fairly easy. (Noticing Magic, 4A page 179). Its a perception test, with a threshold of 6-Force. Observers get +2 dice if awakened, +2 if currently astrally percieving, and +2 if the caster is manifesting a shamanic mask(Lol, be unfair to shamans.) The relevant section also states that high-force things tend to make the air glow, and other visible mana disturbances.

Just remember, that every time you toss off a force 5 or 6 spell, everyone paying the least bit of attention is going 'holy shit, a mage, geek him.'

On the other hand, if you -want- to cast subtly (Force, 4A page 182) tells you that Force limits the amount of hits(not net hits) on the spellcasting test - and that this limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost the spell. Low Force, Edged spells are the way to go - you just need to be more on top of keeping track of net hits, but its totally doable.

[Nath]

So by your standards the spell is more important than the target. So basically you would have KE/LS work just as hard to solve the case if the victim were a prostitute as they would if the victim were the Governor? Murder is a pretty serious crime too, but KE/LS don't work nearly as hard (at least in my game) to solve every gang-bangers death like they would to find out who killed a politician or corp. executive. Then again, crime tends to be more rampant in my games considering that is one of the underlying themes. As such, not every crime can be investigated with equal vigor.

I guess the police would put more efforts into investigating the murder of an ork prostitute if the weapon used is a rocket launcher, rather than, say a knife. Obviously, this depends on how common you consider knowledge of the Mind Probe spell and rocket launcher to be.

[Udoshi]

I'd also like to point out that Mind Probe is a mana spell, and is thus able to be used by astrally projecting(and Manifesting mages.)

Is there any reason a manifested mage couldn't mind probe a crowd, then demanifest, and zip off to other astral horizons - or would the target have to be Astrally Percieving/Dual natured first?

[DireRadiant]

Redcrow, you feel the Mind Probe spell is unbalanced and subject to abuse. You are considering a mechanical solution so the players will evaluate the risk up front on the basis of "Do I want to cast this spell in the circumstances where I need Touch the target and take such and such consequences." The consequences re purely based on mechanical effects.

I am point out my approach to this spell, and in fact anything "Powerful" in the game is that there are consequences in the game world. Mind Probe is easy to cast and use, the game world consequences are varied, but ultimately unavoidable. It may not impact the player immediately nor directly, but there is an impact. The players may "get away" with using the spell often, there are plenty of smart circumstances where the players can avoid the immediate consequences. But there are consequences, it does have an impact in the world, "Powerful" things are treated seriously by society, and one of the consequences is "Thanks for playing, make a new character".

[Dakka Dakka]

On the other hand, if you -want- to cast subtly (Force, 4A page 182) tells you that Force limits the amount of hits(not net hits) on the spellcasting test - and that this limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost the spell. Low Force, Edged spells are the way to go - you just need to be more on top of keeping track of net hits, but its totally doable.

I doubt this is a viable tactic. Only the edge dice are allowed to exceed the maximum hits. Those dice may not generate that many hits unless you have very high edge (6+)

@Udoshi: Manifesting does not allow to cast on the physical plane. It merely makes the mage visible on the physical plane. A manifesting mage can only cast spells on the astral plane. So a target must either be dual-natured or wholly astral.

@perception of spellcasting: the possible observers also get negative modifiers for visibility, distance to the target and unless they use the Observe in Detail Action for distraction. The +2 for astral perception are pretty much moot, because those people can also perceive the sustained spell on the caster, which lasts longer than the casting.

[DireRadiant]

I'd also like to point out that Mind Probe is a mana spell, and is thus able to be used by astrally projecting(and Manifesting mages.)

Is there any reason a manifested mage couldn't mind probe a crowd, then demanifest, and zip off to other astral horizons - or would the target have to be Astrally Percieving/Dual natured first?

Target needs to be dual natured or astrally perceiving.

[Udoshi]

I doubt this is a viable tactic. Only the edge dice are allowed to exceed the maximum hits. Those dice may not generate that many hits unless you have very high edge (6+)

Possibly. However, pre-emptive(as opposed to rerolling failures) Edge use lets -all- dice in the pool rule of six. Whether it actually works like that, is kind of up in the air, but yeah, you'd almost certaintly want an edge of 5 or 6 to attempt this - much less use that tactic regularly.

Thanks for the prompt replies on manifesting spell targeting.

[Redcrow]

I guess the police would put more efforts into investigating the murder of an ork prostitute if the weapon used is a rocket launcher, rather than, say a knife. Obviously, this depends on how common you consider knowledge of the Mind Probe spell and rocket launcher to be.

whoa there buddy. I never said the prostitute was an ork. lol

As for being killed by a Rocket Launcher, sure that might raise some flags, but unless there was significant collateral damage to something or someone important, then its just not going to be a high priority case. I don't want to derail the debate, but generally speaking an object is easier to track than illegal knowledge. So it would be far easier to solve the case of the "incinerated prostitute" than it would the case of "who knows something they shouldn't". But in the end it comes down to an investigating agency with a finite amount of resources who must prioritize their investigations based on some degree of importance and most often that comes down to the victim(s). While Rocket Launchers certainly aren't ubiquitous in my game, they aren't nearly as rare as they are IRL either. The standard setting for Shadowrun makes weapons trafficking fairly common and Rocket Launchers aren't very difficult to come by after character creation with a decent contact going strictly by RAW. Lets also not forget that it is much easier to witness someone using a Rocket Launcher than it is to spot someone using a spell like Mind Probe. Therefore reliable witnesses who actually saw something that might hold up in court (instead of just someone staring) are far more likely giving the investigators at least something worthwhile to go on.

[Redcrow]

Mind Probe is easy to cast and use,

That is the whole crux of my problem right there. Its a powerful spell that is (too) easy to cast and use. It takes mere seconds to perform, requires few net hits, and can be done with virtual anonymity. Sure, I can come up with all sorts of in-game consequences, but just as the spell itself can easily be abused so can a GMs frequent use of consequences whenever a PC does something they don't like. I use in-game consequences all the time, but I also try to think those consequences through rather thoroughly to ensure they are consistent and that I'm not being heavy-handed just because a PC has done something unexpected or that I feel disrupts the game. Eventually the player is going to start to feel like the spell is only useful when I the GM deem it appropriate and is otherwise completely worthless because anytime they try to use it I'm just going to screw them over in some way. Thats not how I want to GM and I don't think my players would stick around long if I did.

[Redcrow]

but generally speaking an object is easier to track than illegal knowledge. So it would be far easier to solve the case of the "incinerated prostitute" than it would the case of "who knows something they shouldn't".

Sorry, had to quote my own post because I thought of something amusing. I would find it quite ironic for an investigator to use Mind Probe in order to find out if a suspect knew the spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My biggest problem with Mind Probe is that essentially anyone with the spell can learn everything someone else knows and their entire life history for a mere 3 net hits and do it anonymously from across the room. Given how much of Shadowrun is about finding information and uncovering secrets, this does seem too powerful and very open to abuse. I would be a little more open to it if the caster had to actually Touch the target or if it was restricted to only reading surface thoughts. The only other option I could see is to have every NPC for which this spell could potentially ruin the game be guarded 24/7 by another spellcaster who can counterspell the attempt, which seems heavy-handed to say the least.

After reviewing some of my campaign notes and considering the ramifications of Mind Probe being used in certain places, it would indeed be a game ruining spell.

Control Thoughts is just as bad, if not worse, IMO.

You do realize that those who are having their minds read are completely aware that it is happening; and it is not an instantaneous data exchange of everything the victim knows; Right?

That being the case, it is VERY EASY to just walk into another room, especially if you are trying to be annonymous about it... once line of sight is briken, so is the probe itself, and if you attempt to floow, you will probably be seen as the one doing the probing...

Keep the Faith

[Redcrow]

You do realize that those who are having their minds read are completely aware that it is happening; and it is not an instantaneous data exchange of everything the victim knows; Right?

That being the case, it is VERY EASY to just walk into another room, especially if you are trying to be annonymous about it... once line of sight is briken, so is the probe itself, and if you attempt to floow, you will probably be seen as the one doing the probing...

Keep the Faith

Sure, the victim knows they are being Probed, but has no way of knowing who is doing the Probing or what specific information their assailant is Probing for. As for time required, one piece of information can be gained for every complex action, so we're talking a matter of seconds to learn the self destruct code to the Death Star or whatever. By the time the victim is able to walk into another room and break LOS, its already too late and the information has been stolen. I can't even imagine a target with high rating Wired Reflexes being able to walk into another room in less time than it would take the caster to learn at least one important piece of information like a passcode or something.

[Cheops]

For best effect cast this on yourself, then cast shapechange (crow), and perch on the roof of a building or a window ledge and mind probe the target as he walks down the street or gets out of a car. He may know that he is being mind probed but who is going to be looking for a sparkling crow? More hilarious points if you have Extended Masking.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'd also like to point out that Mind Probe is a mana spell, and is thus able to be used by astrally projecting(and Manifesting mages.)

Is there any reason a manifested mage couldn't mind probe a crowd, then demanifest, and zip off to other astral horizons - or would the target have to be Astrally Percieving/Dual natured first?

Yes there is... A reason that is... a Manifested Mage is still actually on the Astral Plane, and cannot cast such a spell and have its effects bypass the Astral/Material Plane Barrier... the spell effects stay on the same plane that the spell was cast... So no casting a Mana based spell from astral to affect the targets on the Physical... You could, however, target any Dual Natured creatures from the Astral Plane as they exist on both planes simultaneously...

Keep the Faith

[Dreadlord]

I'd also like to point out that Mind Probe is a mana spell, and is thus able to be used by astrally projecting(and Manifesting mages.)

Is there any reason a manifested mage couldn't mind probe a crowd, then demanifest, and zip off to other astral horizons - or would the target have to be Astrally Percieving/Dual natured first?

In astral space, you can only target other astral beings, period. Manifesting gives you NO access to the physical plane, either, it only allows people to see (and hear)YOU!

SR4a, p.183, Step 3: Choose the Target(s), 3rd paragraph.
SR4a, p.193 Manifesting

[Wandering One]

Curiousity on this one... would the perception test to 'see' the magic casting be a teamwork roll by the crowd in the bar?

If so, that's a hell of a bonus to your already beefed up security who should be running a 4/5 in perception (Bored bouncers occur, but that doesn't mean they can't do their job.)

Control Actions is the spell I worry more about, especially with a mage who's got a bit of extra karma on hand to quicken the thing to someone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)