Noob GM, Help needed Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Troysome]

Hi All;

I am a new GM to Shadowrun. Although I have been playing/GM'ing RPG's since about '79 (yeah, I know it's only 2072) I've not played an RPG that doesn't have levels. I am having a drek-all time figuring out how to build encounters that are appropriate to the skills my players have. I don't want to kill them and I don't want it to be a soy-cake walk for them either. I've read through the 20th anniversary edition twice and I still am fairly clueless. Any help would be appreciated.

Also, if this is posted in the wrong area, point me at the correct area and I'll head that way

Thanks in advance

[Creel]

Give them good intel, a decent budget, and plenty of prep time. With good intel, proper planning and the right tools for the job they should be able to take just about anything. This'll also give you and them a feel for what kind of game you're wanting to play.

Build it however you want, but try to make it believable. Stick to the BBB, keep it simple. There are a lot of cool toys for GMs in many of the sourcebooks, but until both you and the players are more comfortable try to restrain yourself. Not every corporate business park is a fortified dungeon.

If they take it at a walk, throw them at something harder next time. There's nothing wrong with the occasional milk run, and there's always room for something to go wrong.

[DireRadiant]

Strategy > Tactics > Mechanics

The same set of security guards can either be a cakewalk or the source of TPK depending utterly on how smart you run them.

This gives you both great freedom and a lot of work on figuring out what they do.

As a GM you will have to decide if that Sec Guard is smart enough to hide behind a wall and call for reinforcements while tossing frag grenades from cover, or if he'll charge straight at the cybered up troll street sam wielding a LMG melee hardened with a combat axe without mentioning anything to the security guard post.

[CollateralDynamo]

Running SR really is all about building a believable world. The difficulty of combat really stems from how much your PCs know about their foes going in. Sure, a F8 spirit is alot tougher then a F4 spirit. But if they know the big bad spirits are stomping around, they should definitely pack SnS.

Assuming you and your players are both new to SR, you might have to do a little tap-dancing and throw the players a few bones. When I first started running a group in SR the value of both legwork and fake permits was grossly underestimated. They tended to take a more DnD approach to everything and planned to just "kick down the doors". Even with my less then gentle nudging to do otherwise, they went ahead and got more then one PC killed. To try to make up for it, however, whenever they tried to get legwork in the future I made it simple for awhile. To encourage the practice. I also hooked them up with a plot contact who got them permits and SINs on the cheap (well, not SO cheap, but you get the idea).

What I'm trying to say is, it isn't about balancing the power of your foes. Its about balancing the situation. With the right tactics, your SR team can handle most everything.

[Catadmin]

The quick and dirty way to do it is consider how much initial BP you've given your characters, then make sure the people they are facing start with the same BP or lower. You design the NPCs however you want to with this BP, but keep in mind your players' strengths and weaknesses so you can design the NPCs accordingly.

This is the closest thing SR has to the leveling system you're referring to.

BTW, all the above suggestions are good too, but I'm taking your question more literally than they are. @=)

[Udoshi]

The quick and dirty way to do it is consider how much initial BP you've given your characters, then make sure the people they are facing start with the same BP or lower. You design the NPCs however you want to with this BP, but keep in mind your players' strengths and weaknesses so you can design the NPCs accordingly.
This is the closest thing SR has to the leveling system you're referring to.

This, more or less. As a GM, what you ought to do is take a look at your player's sheets. A good look. Presumably, they've mailed you copies for your reference.(if they haven't, they should).

Put down their primary role on the team. Figure out how much dice they're rolling to accomplish their role. Don't even spent a whole lot of time poring over it, just a quick and dirty "Okay, the sammy has agility 7, most guns at 4, and a smartlink. Ditto reaction and dodge... so thats 11-13 dice dice to shoot people and not get shot, and could pretty easily pick up two more dice with a specialization." Followed by "Okay, the hacker's got Exploit/Stealth program 6, hacking 5, with the Stealth specialty, and will generally be rolling about 14 dice for important things due to hotsim."
Now you have a good idea of what your team's capable. Just a loose, general assumption.

Now you want to decide how hard your encounters are going to be. If something is -going- to be a tough, base the opposition loosely around what your players are capable of - but remember that if the NPC dice pools are the same, they're going to be roughly equals. Also, several enemies are more of a threat than one big tough guy.(this is mostly due to the IP system, and wound penalties. One Big Boss can pretty easily be anticlimactically ganged up on).
That being said, you -also- want to take the situation into account. If the players are going to break into a bank, let them know its not going to be easy, and scale the difficulty to account for that. The group's hacker should -not- be enountering military grade firewalls and black IC at every turn, at the 7-11's, just because he's got a high dice pool. In the middle of a very secure facility, though, that might be more appropriate - to start.

It will become easier as you get a feel for what the characters your player's made are capable off.

[Troysome]

Thanks all. This a great stuff. Keep the hints and lessons coming. I'm learning a lot.

As for my campaign arc, we're just in the very beginnings of starting to think about playing SR. At the moment, the group is still in the middle of a D&D campaign (yes, I realize that I am probably persona-non-gratis now) and probably will be for the next 8 or so months. I just want to get a good idea before I start my turn at GM'ing.

Again, thanks for the great ideas and the great help, chummers.

[Falconer]

Most of us have played DnD at some point. Hell I still do even though it's not my preference (you play what the other players are playing...). It does no good to a game system to scare away the noobs, and I've always hated that.


Hope your players don't come here for build advice... most people here can't resist the urge to twink out characters w/ tons of min/maxing which can make it hard for GM's to adequately challenge them w/o TPK'ing the rest of the party. If you have a problem pull a player aside and talk about it. I heavily suggest no expansion books for players (though nothing wrong w/ you pulling some ideas from them).


I suggest keeping your game low power to start as it's a lot more forgiving to newer players. A ganger w/ a pistol is a lot less of a threat than a half-competent security guard w/ an assault rifle. Nothing wrong w/ cakewalks so long as your players learn from them. Nothing says seedy underside, like gang turf wars, smuggling, drug deals gone bad, and pimping out the high charisma catgirl (after you've kidnapped your face and installed the sex change and fetish cosmetic mods of course ;P).

Generally in SR as others have stated it's not levels... it's how many dice are you tossing. (and generally different tasks need varying levels of that... you'll learn with time). I'd avoid too much of the extra books til you get your bearings... arsenal though is okay as it's mostly just a lot of extra equipment options.

Try and keep the world believable... remember that in much the same way as battletech, in shadowrun life is cheap, equipment/mechs aren't. There's a lot of people out there. A good way to go about this is just jot down what kind of security a place has... (is it warded, guards (how good), drone patrols... spirit patrols... just because a mage isn't on call, doesn't mean they can't have bought loaned services from the mage, security system (pressure plates, interior motion detectors, etc.). Once you've figured that out... let the players try and crack the nut... not everything is a fortress like others have said. (generally if it's just a store w/ some insured stock... the security is going to be a function of their insurance premium to maximize profits).

[Udoshi]

I have to second Falconer. As you're getting a feel for the game, less books are better. On the flip side, a lot of the expansion books have expanded rules and rather useful stuff that adds depth, where things were poorly worded before. Some -sections- of books are definitely worth including, even if you don't use the book as a whole.

Runner's companion is great. Not for any of the infected, or surgelings, or freespirits or any of that crap - give your players the quality section to play with. You're going to find they create -much- more interesting characters with it. Also, Advanced Lifestyles and Group Contacts are ace. If there's any book to add in, playing with just the Big Core Book, its this one. (If you find your playgroup is min-maxing like fuck, trying to scrabble for every last point to be effective, yet interesting - try giving them karmagen to play with, but make sure its the balanced 4thA costs.)

I am also going to have to recommend Arsenal. Just the amount of armor, clothing options, extra guns(so you're not using the same ones, over and over and over), or even different cars add so much to any character. For grittyness, it also has more drugs. Definitely one of my favorites.

Finally, Unwired. The matrix system is kind of crappy and unexplained in the main book. Don't drop unwired into your game without some experience - it can bog things down. Instead, pick the book up, read the first seventy pages or so. Matrix topology stuff, how subscriptions are handled, what Alerts do, more details on Account priviledges, signal encryption and the like - that kind of stuff. Especially the matrix security section, and the Sample Systems on page 77, and the example on 79. Just so you have an idea of how it works, before your players start trying to break it. 'I don't get the matrix' is one thing I see on these boards a lot - so do the table the favor, read the 3 sections: Idiot's Guide to the Matrix, Matrix Topology, and System security - and throw the rest of the book out until you think you can handle it. Save you headaches, it will. For added flavor, start thinking of how to describe the AR of the areas your players are in, too - everyone's got an icon, a commlink, something, and it can really add flavor to the game when your players are used to it.

But yeah. Core Book + RC is all you need for a lively game. Arsenal keeps chase scenes interesting, and gives you options to throw extra things at your players. Unwired's 'how the matrix works' section will save you headaches; the rest of the book will add them.

A street level game is a good way to get used to the system. You may want to shop around for Pre-sr4 modules, and run them with the new ruleset. You should also consider reading This Thread. Its the story of a GM running 4th for the first time, posting the sessions for people to see how it works, and at the bottom of each update there's a 'list of things we learned about the system this session.' Ton of good info there, well worth your time, and it reads like a book. Go click already.

[Nixda]

Do a few tests with them during their first run by sending weak enemies that can reasonably appear in waves - like gangers on their own turf, for example (from a somewhat smaller gang, not one of the big ones).

You'll see how they deal with a small group of low-budget armed gangers, and if you feel they need more challenge, send a somewhat larger group that spreads our against AoE spells and uses cover intelligently. Have some appear in the runners back, let them use their main advantage: knowing their turf.

If you still feel your runners have it too easy then, have the boss show up with his best fighters and they'll be likely to carry the best weapons the gang had hidden in their headquarters. This way you can experiment a bit and slowly escalate the conflict.
Should you feel at any point you're short of killing the runners, remember gangers have a low professional rating, and their morale can break easily after a few losses against the firepower of the average runner team.

[Nychuus]

I think its an issue of scaling.

With D&D you pretty much have the threat levels of encounters and so on...

Shadowrun's scaling is less direct. Simply put, just make the missions more difficult. Higher security, Lone Star\Red Samurai security that's harder to gtf away from, other shadowrunners that are after the same thing you're after, uncooperative extraction target ("I won't leave without my teddy bear!" that just so happens to be a real grizzly bear), and so on.

[Whipstitch]

The quick and dirty way to do it is consider how much initial BP you've given your characters, then make sure the people they are facing start with the same BP or lower. You design the NPCs however you want to with this BP, but keep in mind your players' strengths and weaknesses so you can design the NPCs accordingly.

While the gist is sound, I would stress that BPs are a bit of a red herring as a game balancing tool and I personally find it a pain in the ass to worry about what the build point totals of NPCs are. Instead I just eyeball it by concentrating on the end result: dice pools. There's really only one truism you really need to keep in mind when it comes to keeping yourself honest and avoid making NPCs that don't really make sense or seem too skilled for their environment: any dice pool of 8 or above requires being either well-trained or well-equipped, and anything above 10 virtually always requires both. The major exception is Active Skills linked to Body and Strength when used by trolls.

[PatB]

Thanks all. This a great stuff. Keep the hints and lessons coming. I'm learning a lot.

As for my campaign arc, we're just in the very beginnings of starting to think about playing SR. At the moment, the group is still in the middle of a D&D campaign (yes, I realize that I am probably persona-non-gratis now) and probably will be for the next 8 or so months. I just want to get a good idea before I start my turn at GM'ing.

Again, thanks for the great ideas and the great help, chummers.

Ditto here. We're 3 guys playing DnD and the DM needed a break. Instead of starting a new DnD game with a new DM, we decided to change entirely and give SR a try. It worked amazingly.

The books we're using: SR4A, Street Magic, and Arsenal (with 2 players, the hacker is an AI NPC, so the GM decides the outcome of a matrix run instead of rolling dice, ie Unwire is not needed). Also, since we were all new to SR, the team decided to only use SR4A at character creation. The GM decided to introduce things from the other books gradually in the game (especially the toys and upgrades of Arsenal). This decision simplified character creation and helped the team to understand the rules and mechanics.

One thing to note: the players wondered why they had to 'buy' contacts, thinking they could made them during gameplay. Contacts are resources as much as a pistol or a stat point; a character with 4 contacts will help you survive as much as that extra point of Body because he'll be able to gain intel, favors, and who knows what. You know what they say: information is power...

Lastly, what's great about your situation is that you have 8 months to prepare your game. That gives you a lot of time to read material, create NPCs, create runs, make a plot around some of the runs, and so on. For opposition, use what is already available in the book and adjust the stats and gear; the Triad Posse is a personal favorite because it makes a decent non-ware opposition. Throw opposition at the team gradually, see how they fare, and let the players and you build confidence in the system and the runners. That's the only way you'll be able to assess the team's ability to survive.

[Catadmin]

While the gist is sound, I would stress that BPs are a bit of a red herring as a game balancing tool and I personally find it a pain in the ass to worry about what the build point totals of NPCs are.

Hence the reason I said "quick and dirty". Because you're absolutely right. BP can be totally twinked out to unbalance the game before anyone notices.

But if everyone is new to the game, BP is a good place to start.

Instead I just eyeball it by concentrating on the end result: dice pools.

Another good point. But for anyone who doesn't understand the full implication of dice pools (ran into a lot of those while playing Chumps), "eyeballing" is a skill that takes time to learn properly.

[deek]

I'd say a fairly safe eyeballing of dice pools (which I am in favor of and do at my tables) is one of two methods:

Easy: -6 dice of party
Tough: same dice as party
TPK: +6 dice of party

or

Don't Bother: 1-5 dice
Easy: 6-8 dice
Challenge: 9-14 dice
Brutal: 15-20 dice

I think you could start with one of those two reference methods and tweak from there. The former takes a little more work from the GM to analyze each player and decide whether you want to modify based on party averages or the highest pool. The latter works for most games (especially if you use the pools as including any mods).

[Whipstitch]

Speaking of tests, SR4 is a real dice heavy game so don't forget about the hit buy rules when it comes to speeding things up. A lot of players, particularly new ones, won't presume to know when a GM will allow them to buy hits so be sure to suggest it when appropriate, since doing so can save you a lot of time that would other wise be spent corralling entire bricks of dice. Likewise teamwork tests are a great way for runner teams to improvise their way through things, but I would recommend letting any "assistants" with 4 or more dice after modifiers buy their hits even under duress and then just make the primary acting character roll to see if they fail. It's a move that favors the runners since they'll obviously have less chances to glitch that way, but frankly I find that the time saved is worth giving the team a li'l break. After all, there's better ways to challenge the team than hoping an assisting PC rolls a glitch and loses a screwdriver or something. You'll have your hands full as a new GM even without all the counting anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[TommyTwoToes]

Another good way to start off is to have the opposition using non-lethal weapons (gel rounds and flechette ammo). Give them injuries they can survive.

Our group likes runs to be like a Die Hard movie. At the end, all the bad guys are down and the good guy is bruised, battered, and has a bullet hole or 2 in him.

Of course this group also states when playing DnD "Hey, you haven't used all your Hit Points this fight, it just like wasting them."

[Catadmin]

Of course this group also states when playing DnD "Hey, you haven't used all your Hit Points this fight, it just like wasting them."

<snicker>

[Troysome]

Of course this group also states when playing DnD "Hey, you haven't used all your Hit Points this fight, it just like wasting them."

This is how I feel when I DM D&D. If you're not almost dead, you haven't worked hard enough to get the treasure

[Troysome]

Ok, I've read the core book 3-4 times now, the "Seattle 2072" book twice, "Arsenal", "Dusk", and "Midnight" once each. I plan on running my group through Dusk and Midnight after they go through some initial runs to gain familiarity with the system and some Karma.

My next noob GM questions are these: 1) Do any of you use 25 mm/1 inch gridded battle mats for combat? In D&D each 25 mm/1 inch square is 5 ft. How do we convert this to metric? 1 square=2 meters? How do you adjust for long range that would be off the battle mat (Sniper rifles come to mind)?

2) How do you have your players decide/create how they have come together as a team? Do you nudge them? Let them do it all?

I'm sure I'll be posting either more questions or getting some feedback on how I plan to start my campaign

Thanks in advance

[The_Vanguard]

I have a different approach when it comes to designing encounters: I don't build them appropriate for the PCs, but appropriate for the world. This means that they will have it ridiculously easy sometimes, and face impossible odds at other times. However, SR is designed to be much less linear than the typical D&D dungeon crawl, and this approach caters to this. There are many different ways to deal with the opposition and depending on the situation and the protagonists involved, some will be more desireable than others.

Let's say your team wants to infiltrate a heavily fortified corp compound. You could decide that the opposition will only appear in groups that are conveniently tailored to your PC's capabilities. That way, your SR game will be a D&D dungeon crawl in the future, where the characters move from room to room, disable traps and fight encounter-level appropriate enemies.
If you go the other way and your players know that they don't stand a chance against the corp's defenses, it will force them to go the extra mile. Have a hacker infiltrate the system in advance and mess with the drones' IFF. Dig up some dirt about an exec and blackmail him for passcodes. Convince a radical eco policlub to stage a distraction bombing. Take every frakkin chance you got to survive.

Yes, it's a bit scary at first and will certainly cause some growing pains, but it's well worth it IMHO - because this is where Shadowrun really shines. Don't be afraid to make it unique.

[Traul]

2) How do you have your players decide/create how they have come together as a team? Do you nudge them? Let them do it all?

That's an easy one: they just get hired together. It's the Johnson who chooses, not them. You can also give them all the same fixer to make this more realistic. If they want to have deeper relations, it's fine, but not required by the setting.

[Troyminator]

Hope your players don't come here for build advice... most people here can't resist the urge to twink out characters w/ tons of min/maxing which can make it hard for GM's to adequately challenge them w/o TPK'ing the rest of the party.

Of my 5 players, 2 are min/max-ing Gods, one wants to be a min/max god, one is a role-player, and the 5th could go either way. The min/maxing gods are also very, VERY good with tactics and strategies. I tend heavily for the role playing aspect of it and am not so great with strategies and tactics.

We start Shadowrun on Saturday. I am handing them starter characters from the 20th anniversary main book, we're running through 3 encounters to get a feel for the system. Then we're making characters and, if time allows, starting the main campaign. Food fight, a couple of things I've made up, then starting them on "Ghost Cartels". If they live through that, then on to the "Artifacts" series.

Wish me luck. I'll need it.

[Troyminator]

Yes, I know my names don't match, but I had forgotten that I made the Troyminator account in 2006. For a guy that can't remember his name on a day to day basis, I was surprised to remember a password from almost 5 years ago.

I wonder if I can remember the password to the Troysome account?

<wanders off in a puzzled daze>

[Fatum]

My next noob GM questions are these: 1) Do any of you use 25 mm/1 inch gridded battle mats for combat? In D&D each 25 mm/1 inch square is 5 ft. How do we convert this to metric? 1 square=2 meters? How do you adjust for long range that would be off the battle mat (Sniper rifles come to mind)?

2) How do you have your players decide/create how they have come together as a team? Do you nudge them? Let them do it all?

I'm sure I'll be posting either more questions or getting some feedback on how I plan to start my campaign

Sniper rifles are narrative range territory. Minding that their range is far more than what other weapons have, if you have a sniper in a fight, you don't really need to know his precise location - just how far he is, and if he has cover/civilians near him, that sort of thing. If the players manage to get close, then you make the map, if you really need it.

Minding that gathering a team is always a chore, my players start with their teams already working together. I pretty much write "your runners are a team, they are long-time friends, no in-party conflict without a good reason" in the campaign description, and we roll with that. Last time a new player joined and I didn't GM-fiat him into the team, it took what, two or three sessions for the runners to arrange a meeting, agree on contract terms, etc.

Now, in what comes to your first question. See, unlike DnD, Shadowrun is not a game of direct confrontations. See the rules on Surprise - they give the surprising side, the one with the good intel, immense benefits. Actually, benefits big enough to wipe out most opposition in one round. So, the thing about Shadowrun combat is always starting it in favorable conditions, that is - combat should be a result of planning on the runners' side, if they want to win it without severe problems.
That said, I wouldn't advise using the stats from the books for your opposition. Well, not unless you use the gimped sample characters, either.