Alpha+ gear and availability Options

[rumanchu]

I know that getting the cost for alpha- beta- and deltaware gear are increased, but are there any rules for increasing the availability of higher-grade implants?

[tagz]

I don't think there is any listed.

I think mostly because availability will almost never be the prohibitive factor when acquiring higher grades of cyber, it will be the cost.

[Karoline]

I don't think there is any listed.

I think mostly because availability will almost never be the prohibitive factor when acquiring higher grades of cyber, it will be the cost.

Actually from what I've heard it tends to be the opposite. Delta grade ware is supposed to be ultra rare, and thus is purely under the control of the GM, as opposed to being something as simple as an availability roll.

[Yerameyahu]

That makes more sense, Karoline. You'd kind of wish the availability mechanic were flexible enough to handle everything, though.

[Karoline]

Looking at it, it seems like it was designed without vehicles or 'ware in mind, since the availability time maxes out at 10k.

The other problem is that it really isn't difficult at all (even slightly) to get a face to 20 dice where they can get roughly 24 availability stuff in 4 rolls. So if delta grade was just an availability roll, it would either be too low and the face could get it in no time, or it would be too high and no one except a face could even have the slightest wisp of a chance of getting it.

Personally I kind of prefer leaving it in the hands of the GM, as it keeps delta (and even beta) grade ware something that is special, and not just the next step on a character's 'ware path. It also means that the GM can dangle delta access as a carrot for a mission.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Looking at it, it seems like it was designed without vehicles or 'ware in mind, since the availability time maxes out at 10k.

The other problem is that it really isn't difficult at all (even slightly) to get a face to 20 dice where they can get roughly 24 availability stuff in 4 rolls. So if delta grade was just an availability roll, it would either be too low and the face could get it in no time, or it would be too high and no one except a face could even have the slightest wisp of a chance of getting it.

Personally I kind of prefer leaving it in the hands of the GM, as it keeps delta (and even beta) grade ware something that is special, and not just the next step on a character's 'ware path. It also means that the GM can dangle delta access as a carrot for a mission.

A Carrot that often takes a very long time to actually grasp...
But when you do, it is wonderful...

Keep the Faith

[Mantis]

I've always made the access to Delta clinics the hard part. Sure you can get the cyberware easily enough but you also need the Delta clinic to get it implanted. They have sort of listed where you can find these clinics in various source books (Corporate Enclaves for Chiba for example) but the rest is left in GM hands (where it should be). Delta ware is supposed to be more complex to install and so you can't just go buy some and have the local street doc implant it for you. Or that's the way I've always run it anyway.

Also Tymeaus, I love your sig. Look out, here comes English with it's language club! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've always made the access to Delta clinics the hard part. Sure you can get the cyberware easily enough but you also need the Delta clinic to get it implanted. They have sort of listed where you can find these clinics in various source books (Corporate Enclaves for Chiba for example) but the rest is left in GM hands (where it should be). Delta ware is supposed to be more complex to install and so you can't just go buy some and have the local street doc implant it for you. Or that's the way I've always run it anyway.

Indeed... In all my 20 years of Playing, Only Twice have I ever had any Delta Grade 'Ware... If it was easy, everyone would have it...

Keep the Faith

[Maxwell Silverha...]

Please also keep in mind that "Delta Ware" is not just super cyber thats low on essence cost and expensive. It is custom built to the character, the neural interfaces are made for his/her specific synapse' specifically designed for the subjects DNA, the bone attachments are engineered for the bones they are going in/on/around. Everything about delta is unique, one of a kind and mostly custom. Magic is used in the installation, and during the after care to tune it to the recipient. This take time, lots of it, months. Years for cyber zombie level delta suites Delta 'ware also requires a delta clinic. As I understand the SR world there are maybe half a dozen delta clinics around the world.. and most of them are run by the mega's, or governments. Delta is the "holy grail " of cyberware, and as such is always restricted in my games to very high karma characters. I.E. 400+. It has never simply been"make the roll" (regardless of how ridiculously high the roll has to be) to get delta with any of the groups I have played or GM'ed. It was months of in game play time chasing down contacts, building good reps with the right Mr. Johnson's. kissing the right hoop, etc.

IMO: I guess in a whole lot less words, Delta was for plot and story advancement, and as a reward for years of work for a specific corp or Govt. Not for Munchkining. (Thats a real word) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please also keep in mind that "Delta Ware" is not just super cyber thats low on essence cost and expensive. It is custom built to the character, the neural interfaces are made for his/her specific synapse' specifically designed for the subjects DNA, the bone attachments are engineered for the bones they are going in/on/around. Everything about delta is unique, one of a kind and mostly custom. Magic is used in the installation, and during the after care to tune it to the recipient. This take time, lots of it, months. Years for cyber zombie level delta suites Delta 'ware also requires a delta clinic. As I understand the SR world there are maybe half a dozen delta clinics around the world.. and most of them are run by the mega's, or governments. Delta is the "holy grail " of cyberware, and as such is always restricted in my games to very high karma characters. I.E. 400+. It has never simply been"make the roll" (regardless of how ridiculously high the roll has to be) to get delta with any of the groups I have played or GM'ed. It was months of in game play time chasing down contacts, building good reps with the right Mr. Johnson's. kissing the right hoop, etc.

IMO: I guess in a whole lot less words, Delta was for plot and story advancement, and as a reward for years of work for a specific corp or Govt. Not for Munchkining. (Thats a real word) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Took me two years, a huge chunk of change, 302 Karma, and a huge story investment before I finally managed to actually acquire the 'ware I was looking for...

Keep the Faith

[Mäx]

As I understand the SR world there are maybe half a dozen delta clinics around the world.. and most of them are run by the mega's, or governments.

That might have have been true back in the fifties, but as far as i can from sourcebooks there are a lot more of them now days(but their still not common) and some of them are even open to private inviduals with right connections and a boat load of money.

[Makki]

I know that getting the cost for alpha- beta- and deltaware gear are increased, but are there any rules for increasing the availability of higher-grade implants?

there's an indirect availability. you need to find the right clinic. Aug p. 122

[The Lorax]

The availability rules in sr4 are terrible. Availability used to mean something in the pass. If an item had a high Availability, there was a very real chance you would never get your hands on it. In sr4, you will eventually get it. Extended tests always succeed unless its either some ridiculous number, which no piece of gear in the game has, or your very terrible in social situations. Like cha 1 and no influence skills terrible. And even then if you have enough money and access to a fixer or other appropriate contact its not going to matter. Even at 24/1 week. You WILL get the item or service your after.

[Teulisch]

meh, even with changes to extended tests in SR4a, someone with 18 dice (skill 6, attribute 6, emotitoy r6) you can simply BUY 30-some hits over time. you could buy a 24 in seven time increments.

no, the reason that delta is so very scarce is the need for a delta clinic. Clinics dont have availability, and the delta ones tend to only be in places like corporate headquarters. heck even a beta clinic is hard to find, especially a shadow beta clinic that can install those fancy restricted/forbidden items for you.

beta and delta grades are a thing of game balance. upgrading from alpha to betaware is sort of like having the adept initiate a couple times and increase magic. if its too easy to get beta, then you put the adept at a disadvantage, but if its too hard to get betaware then the sams are at a disadvantage. and lets face it, you see more games where runners get paid crap if at all than you see games where you just dont get any karma.

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly as the game presses on and I become more comfortable running it I'm less and less convinced in the need for deltaware being a holy grail. In my current campaign the characters got access to it fairly early on and it really hasn't broken anything. More and more I'm kind of annoyed by the way cyberware has basically stagnated since the game first came out. Cybered characters are frankly already at a disadvantage in SR4 especially compared to their magical counterparts, I see no reason to keep up this charade.

[Stahlseele]

Standard and Alpha have been freely available even i SR3 allready.
Better shops even keep beta stuff in their storage. Only Delta is really rare.
It's basically the same difference you see today in the graphics cards for computers.
Standard Grade: Radeon 4x Series.
Alpha Grade: Radeon 5650
Beta Grade: 5870
Delta Grade: 5970 with 4 Gigs of RAM and 6 mini display ports.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Clinics dont have availability, […]

They do. Even Delta clinics. Check Augmentation.

[Yerameyahu]

Stahlseele, if you can buy it retail and without a license, it's not Delta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Why? Surely someone is purchasing this product legally otherwise it would hardly be cost effective to produce it. The "Delta is soooper sekrit" super rare ideology made some sense when it first hit the steets, but the tech curve should have caught up by now, the only reason it wouldn't have by now is some wierd belief it's necissary for game balance.

[Yerameyahu]

If it weren't that special, there'd be Epsilon grade above it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's a difference between legally-purchaseable and retail-no-license.

[Stahlseele]

Stahlseele, if you can buy it retail and without a license, it's not Delta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You should be able to buy Delta grade stuff that is legal, if you can afford it.
Well, at least if you can get into the clinic.
Why would i not be able to buy a delta grade datajack?
All it does is let me slot some chips and connect to other stuff.
And eyes too. And implanted comlinks.
These are like todays cellphones and MP3-players, sunglasses and the such.
If it weren't for the "only standard and alpha available on char-gen" you could actually get a delta grade datajack in SR3.
All Delta did was add +8 to availability. Seeing how the Datajack starts off with availability of yes, it's yes +8.
and availability 8 is fair game for character creation under SR3 rules. and it still only costs 8000 Nuyen!

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't think about datajacks, because that's not what anyone's talking about for Delta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point is that the availability and legality should be clearly given, because Deltaware should not simply be very expensive. It *should* also be rare and potentially less-legal, depending on the situation. You're right that an across-the-board ruling doesn't fit. … Which is why the GM can say so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If it weren't that special, there'd be Epsilon grade above it.

No. Delta "just" the state of the art implant technology.

And it's development needs to pay off, as well as maintaining those clinics with all that world-class and best-of-the-best staff.
Sure, you need to be able to afford it. Sure, you need to get an appointment.
But not selling it? That's pointless.

[Stahlseele]

I mean, that's the whole story behind shadowrun.
The Corps are gonna sell if the price is right.
You can get military equipment in laos, weapons, tanks, electronics . .
There's 5 or more Delta Clinics in one district in Japan ALONE.
If you can afford it, nobody is going to ask more questions than:"when, which colour?"

[Ascalaphus]

I'd say Standard-Delta are relative grades of how SOTA something is. What used to be Delta in the 2040s could be considered Standard by now. Current Delta is what they're making in top-secret labs; it's less for actual use than a byproduct of research.

And yes, that means to me it makes sense that over time the Essence cost of Standard ware will go down; a 2030 Standard cyberarm is dearer than a 2070 Standard cyberarm.

(Of course, there's no chance of something like that going smoothly between edition changes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )