Alpha+ gear and availability Options

[General Pax]

It seems to me that they changed it so that you simply have to find an appropriate clinic, which has its own availability, and then supply the implant, which uses the base availability but with a significantly increased cost.

I don't understand why betagrade implants arent availabile during chargen though. Clinics that can install it are well within the available limits and the costs arent particularly high, but high enough to keep it in check with the limited amount of resources allotted during chargen.

[Stahlseele]

Because Beta-Ware is basically just a bit better alpha.
While Delta-Grade is something else entirely.
The device in Beta is basically alpha, which has been specifically altered and adapted a bit to your specifications. Still a complete device implanted
The device in Delta is you telling them what you want, they taking what's needed and building the device directly in your body. A new device being build and built inside your body.

[General Pax]

How is that a response to anything I said?

I am saying that it is odd that beta cannot be gotten during chargen despite the fact that it appears to fall within the availability limits. Its only Avail 6 to find a clinic that can implant betaware, and the cost multiplier is only x4.

I am also saying that delta clinics, the only place you can have deltaware installed by the rules, are well outside those limits with an Avail 24. So yeah OK you cant have deltaware at chargen. But it seems as if they changed it from previous editions so that instead of having an avail hike on deltaware, you have to instead just find a clinic and then pay the price hike. So basically all deltaware has two Avails, one to find a clinic, the other for the implant itself, which is the same as alpha or standard. Only the price changes.

[Stahlseele]

Wait, you can't get Beta Grade Stuff in Char Gen in SR4? O.o
I thought that had changed?

[General Pax]

No the rules say only alpha and standard as well as rating 6 and avail 12. You can get up to avail 20 for a 5BP edge though, but the other limits remain.

[Stahlseele]

OK, my bad, i thought that had been changed . .
In the fluff of SR4, Beta Grade is said to be kept in stock by most of the better clinics.
whereas that was only alpha in SR4.

[General Pax]

Yea its an arbitrary limit that doesnt seem to be founded in common sense, just a rehash of the same arbitrary limit of old.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm of the opinion that delta clinics themselves will be able to lay hands on just about any implant; when you reach the delta clinic, the ordinary availability (and buying game) is irrelevant.

Indeed... it is the holy grail of Augmentation, and should not be handed out on a whim...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yea its an arbitrary limit that doesnt seem to be founded in common sense, just a rehash of the same arbitrary limit of old.

Why does everybody complain about the limits?
I am really curious about that...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

You can't chargen with Initiation either (no, I don't wanna hear it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), or Availability 13+, etc. It's just rules. Ask your GM to let you buy Beta grade at the beginning if it's that important. All rules are subject to house modification.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't chargen with Initiation either (no, I don't wanna hear it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), or Availability 13+, etc. It's just rules. Ask your GM to let you buy Beta grade at the beginning if it's that important. All rules are subject to house modification.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

I don't even know why someone would want to get beta ware at chargen. I find myself buying second hand much more often than alpha (Actually I'm not sure I've ever had a character start with alpha) because when first starting cash tends to be more of a limiter than essence with perhaps the exception of wired reflexes, in which case the devs might have specifically not wanted people to be able to pay the fairly low cost for beta wired reflexes in order to get a huge boost in free essence.

As the others have said though, if it is that big of a deal, just talk to your GM. Starting with a delta datajack might be a cool point of background for a hacker or something, or maybe having a character that feels strongly about the evasiveness of 'ware, and so will only get deltaware because it is so much more compatible with the body.

[General Pax]

For starting with deltaware, that deltaware datajack is a rating 6 device, meaning it has a built-in Firewall 6, not to mention System 6, Response 6, and Signal 6. That is worth the price of admission alone.

Beta is nice if your concept requires a lot of Essence expensive ware that you cant fit into 6 points of Essence. Its also nice for characters who arent cheapskates and come from more sophisticated origins. The price of the implants is balance enough. There really is no reason why betagrade ware should be banned at chargen, especially since its relatively common in the 70s.

And yes everyone knows you can talk to the GM to get permission. You can do that for anything. That is not even a point worth discussing as a solution because it isnt a solution at all.

[Yerameyahu]

It is when there's not a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[General Pax]

There is a problem. Theres no reason for betaware to be banned at chargen. Or really any gear as long as it is appropriate to the character. Its all arbitrary, moreso than even the skill limits of only one 6 or two 5s. Why shouldnt a former Ranger sniper start with a high quality sniper rifle?? Why shouldnt a former company man start with beta or even delta skillwires?? etc...

[Karoline]

And then you get into things like restricted gear. It is all about attempting to keep things balanced, and likely trying to enforce the possibility of character advancement. The game would likely be less fun without the 'one 6 or two 5s' rule, but people would get alot of 5s and 6s if it wasn't for that rule. Basically the game is looking out for its own enjoyability. This is why invulnerability is a cheat code in most games, instead of simply an option, because it tends to make the game very unfun, so why include it as an easy option? If people want to circumvent that because they get a high out of being invincible (or maybe they're just more interested in the story or are working on a guide or something) then they have to do a bit of extra work to circumvent things.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel like the Rangers don't let you keep your gear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For the vast majority of characters, starting with Alpha is perfectly fine. For the special cases, you ask the GM. Done. It *is* the solution to that tiny need.

[Whipstitch]

I really don't have a problem with it. Characters are created by arbitrary decisions, so they're subject to equally arbitrary limitations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

It might have been cleaner to just have an availability modifier for alphaware and betaware yeah.. meaning you can get some betaware at chargen, but not everything.

[Saint Sithney]

The D&D reference is *from* the show. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Specifically the show Let's Make a Deal, hosted by Monty Hall.

Personally, I'm all about limiting access to Deltaware by offering it specifically as tempting rewards and one-time only access for certain jobs, but, at the same time, I don't like restricting access all across the board. If a player saves up the cash to buy something that crazy-expensive, then they're making it a high priority. When a player decides to making something their #1 priority, it's poor taste to deny it to them. Because they've obviously been working towards it, so the only thing keeping them away would be you, as the GM, purposely withholding the opportunities they need.

As to the point that all delta is custom made by masters of the cyber arts, yes, that's totally true. However it's still custom made from already existing parts. It's like making a stained glass window. They have all these different pieces, but they have to organize them to fit the form at hand.

[imperialus]

The availability rules in sr4 are terrible. Availability used to mean something in the pass. If an item had a high Availability, there was a very real chance you would never get your hands on it. In sr4, you will eventually get it. Extended tests always succeed unless its either some ridiculous number, which no piece of gear in the game has, or your very terrible in social situations. Like cha 1 and no influence skills terrible. And even then if you have enough money and access to a fixer or other appropriate contact its not going to matter. Even at 24/1 week. You WILL get the item or service your after.

Easy fix.

Each time an availability test is made the GM rolls a number of dice equal to the items availability (with a plus 2 modifier for restricted gear and a plus 5 for illegal). This too is an extended test with a target number equal to the items availability minus the runners notoriety. If the target number gets reached then someone (bad) has found out about the deal the runner is trying to make. Might spice things up a bit if the runner goes to the meet where he is supposed to pick up his new toy and gets raided by an ATF counter-terrorism unit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is a problem. Theres no reason for betaware to be banned at chargen. Or really any gear as long as it is appropriate to the character. Its all arbitrary, moreso than even the skill limits of only one 6 or two 5s. Why shouldnt a former Ranger sniper start with a high quality sniper rifle?? Why shouldnt a former company man start with beta or even delta skillwires?? etc...

But I can write a background that would allow absolutely anything that is printed in the books, regardless of Availability... Does that mean that the GM should let me have it? I would say no... Especially with a 400 BP starting game...

Just because you can argue for it well does not mean that the game should cater to your whims above anyone else's... As for the Sniper Example, there are Sniper Rifles that you can start with... at character creation... But there is no one living today that can take an optimized Sniper Rifle and use it to its fullest capabilities, always, everytime... the breakdown is not the weapon but the person... so your argument about high end sniper rifles is a bad one... any Sniper rifle is good enough for even the best of the best, the only differences are in the options, not capability. And you would still have to purchase the weapon itself, as the military does not let you take it with you when you leave...

Keep the Faith

[Mongoose]

Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't think about datajacks, because that's not what anyone's talking about for Delta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think that's actually the best stuff to get as Delta. If you minimize the essence cost of all those little gadgets, you can usually fit in whatever big-ass gadget you need (if its worth having in the first place). Plus, you won't have to let Lofwyr hang onto your left nut to get it.

[Karoline]

I think that's actually the best stuff to get as Delta. If you minimize the essence cost of all those little gadgets, you can usually fit in whatever big-ass gadget you need (if its worth having in the first place).

Yeah, the idea is that it is really cheap to get delta. It's like delta synaptic boosters are nice, but they cost 2.4 mil for .75 essence. Delta datajack is already .05 essence for a pittance of 5k.

[Yerameyahu]

It really depends on the item. Some of the little things aren't worth Delta-ing, and some of the big things really are. It's just a matter of cost/essence ratios.