Melee vs. Vehicles, Slicing an engine block in half... Options

[Hand-E-Food]

Hi!

What are the rules for personnel vs. vehicle combat? A scenario: I'm a troll standing in the middle of the road. A van is driving at a building I need to protect. I'm standing in the van's way. I shoot at it as it approaches. As it reaches me, I use a prepared action to side-step it and slice it with my sword.

a) Given the size of the target, does the van get a dodge roll against my ranged or melee attacks? If so, what does it roll?

b) Can you attack something with that much Body and Armour without breaking your sword? If not, what is the sword's limit?

What's your opinion on melee attacks vs. vehicles? Doing the math today, my troll can theoretically dissect a GMC Bulldog Step Van in 3 seconds.

Me: 7 agility + 8 blades (swords) + 3 reach = 18 attack dice, average 6 hits.
Van: 3 reaction + 3 pilot ground craft + 0 handling = 6 dodge dice, average 2 hits. <-- Is this right?
Me: 10 weapon damage + 6 attack hits - 2 dodge hits = 14 damage.
Damage exceeds armour, so damage is physical.
Van: 16 body + 8 armour = 24 resistance dice, average 8 hits.
Van: 16 damage - 8 resistance hits = 6 physical damage.
Van: 8 + 16 body / 2 = 16 damage boxes.
Van: 16 damage boxes / 6 physical damage = 3 attacks.

Is there any problem with this?

[Dakka Dakka]

a) Given the size of the target, does the van get a dodge roll against my ranged or melee attacks? If so, what does it roll?

The Driver rolls REA+Vehcle Skill +/- Handling. The question is if you are still in melee range once you dodged the van.

b) Can you attack something with that much Body and Armour without breaking your sword? If not, what is the sword's limit?

There is no set limit. Whether this makes sense in your gameworld is up to you.

What's your opinion on melee attacks vs. vehicles? Doing the math today, my troll can theoretically dissect a GMC Bulldog Step Van in 3 seconds.

Me: 7 agility + 8 blades (swords) + 3 reach = 18 attack dice, average 6 hits.

So a troll with a two-handed sword. Correct.

Van: 3 reaction + 3 pilot ground craft + 0 handling = 6 dodge dice, average 2 hits. <-- Is this right?

If these are the values of the driver, this is correct. Well if you pair a melee optimized character against an avarage driver without any augmentations, no wonder he loses. The same happens if a gunbunny shoots Joe Average.

Me: 10 weapon damage + 6 attack hits - 2 dodge hits = 14 damage.

The troll has STR 12, no wonder he can do superhuman things

Damage exceeds armour, so damage is physical.
Van: 16 body + 8 armour = 24 resistance dice, average 8 hits.
Van: 16 damage - 8 resistance hits = 6 physical damage.

Correct.

Van: 8 + 16 body / 2 = 16 damage boxes.
Van: 16 damage boxes / 6 physical damage = 3 attacks.

I doubt the driver would patiently wait for you to cut his vehicle up.

The driver should try to run the troll over. Above 72 km/h (60m/turn) the Van does 32P AP -half Impact to the troll. Between 25.2 km/h (21 m/turn) and 72 km/h the van still does 16P AP -half Impact. This should even hurt a troll.

Kinda reminds me of the Death Or Glory Rule of Warhammer 40K.

[HugeC]

Van: 16 damage - 8 resistance hits = 6 physical damage.

I think 16 - 8 = 8, not 6.

[Dakka Dakka]

Correct, but the typo was on the 16. It should be 14 damage.

Oh you forgot the weapon's AP. Any two-handed bladed weapon, except for the spear has an AP of at least -1. So the Van would roll less dice to soak.

[Stahlseele]

How much Damage would the Vehicle take when ramming the Troll?
Also, if you assume the vehicle is gonna move, then assume the troll is gonna move too.
"Torro! Torro! OLE! *klang*"

[Dakka Dakka]

How much Damage would the Vehicle take when ramming the Troll?

Nothing or 8 boxes, nothing that the van wouldn't survive.

[Stahlseele]

Well, if the Van has been hit 2 times allready with 6 Damage, then i guess the van won't live to tell about it either ^^

[Dakka Dakka]

Agreed. There should be a bull bar mod against "soft" targets. Oh wait there is a ram plate. Unfortunately it only increases damage to the target and does not mitigate damage for the vehicle.

:lol: I can imagine it happening like that:
Runner:"Go to ramming speed and hit that troll!"
Rigger: *mentally slams on the brakes*
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Well, Troll with maxed out body, some cyber-limbs, built in armor and feet anchors . .
*Troll beckons Van closer* come bub, let's find what we're both looking for . .

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, Troll with maxed out body, some cyber-limbs, built in armor and feet anchors . .
*Troll beckons Van closer* come bub, let's find what we're both looking for . .

I get the maxed body, cyberlimbs and armor, but what do the foot anchors do. All they grant is increased protection against Knockdown. Having your feet attached to the pavement just negates any chance to go over the vehicle. With them the van can only go over the troll. I doubt that is any more pleasant.

[sabs]

Although what if you have a modded GMC van with 20 armor. Driven by a rigger hot simmed.

You: 7 agility + 8 blades (swords) + 3 reach = 18 attack dice, average 6 hits.
Van: 7 reaction + 5 pilot ground craft + 2 combat driving specialty + 0 handling + 2 hot sim= 16 dodge dice, average 5 hits.
Me: 10 weapon damage + 6 attack hits - 5 dodge hits = 11 damage.
Damage is less than armour, so damage is not physical.
Van: 16 body + 20 armour = 36 resistance dice, average 12 hits.
Van: 11 damage - 12 resistance hits = 0 physical damage.
Van: 20 + 16 body / 2 = 18 damage boxes.
Van: 18 damage boxes / 0 physical damage = infinity

If you get to have a Troll Sam with a 12 str. I get to have a riggered out GMC

This doesnt' even count modified tires, and +handling modifications.


This post has been edited by sabs: Jun 1 2010, 03:57 PM

[Dakka Dakka]

If the rigger is jumped in, he rolls response and not reaction. Barring unobtainable equipment response is capped at 6 AFAIK. Stun damage needn't be soaked by the vehicle.

You forgot a control rig for another +2

[Vertaxis]

I would think that if the sword bites on the swing and gets hung on the vehicle, you should be looking to see if the troll breaks his wrist before losing or breaking the sword. With meat vs. metal, realistically the meat loses every time, even if it's a troll. You can't always go by the numbers.

[Whipstitch]

Sure you can. Skewing the rules towards the results you want is fair game for GMs everywhere. Just do so consistently and openly and you're golden.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I just wish smashing blow worked on vehicles. Smashing blow+ distance strike+ troll=awesome when the van is charging the troll.

On a side note it seems weird to me to dodge a melee attack form the guy you were just charging in your car. I can see how, and yes the rules support it, but you were trying to make contact not swerve away.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Just curious, but is the point of the thought exercise to utterly destroy the oncoming ramming vehicle or just get it to crash so it doesn't reach its target? Now, I am not familiar with any rules beyond the BBB (SR4A) - and I don't exactly have those committed to memory either - but why not just try to do a call shot on a tire or the driver (assuming not a rigger in that case) or engine or axle or so on.

Another thought that occurs to me is the troll needs to use up its IP get the use of dodge/gymnastics otherwise it is just reaction, correct? And are we using the IP divided up distance traveled by walk/run/sprint? I'm just wondering where the troll would find the distance over time to get in the complex action on a moving object, so it gets one shot at this cool move IMHO and would need to win initiative to pull it off ... and where's the edge dice?

I still want to the move to happen though, picturing the second Matrix movie scene with Morpheus crashing and burning the the ghost twins in SR4A rules (sorta) sounds like fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

Hi!

What are the rules for personnel vs. vehicle combat? A scenario: I'm a troll standing in the middle of the road. A van is driving at a building I need to protect. I'm standing in the van's way. I shoot at it as it approaches. As it reaches me, I use a prepared action to side-step it and slice it with my sword.

a) Given the size of the target, does the van get a dodge roll against my ranged or melee attacks? If so, what does it roll?

b) Can you attack something with that much Body and Armour without breaking your sword? If not, what is the sword's limit?

What's your opinion on melee attacks vs. vehicles? Doing the math today, my troll can theoretically dissect a GMC Bulldog Step Van in 3 seconds.

Me: 7 agility + 8 blades (swords) + 3 reach = 18 attack dice, average 6 hits.
Van: 3 reaction + 3 pilot ground craft + 0 handling = 6 dodge dice, average 2 hits. <-- Is this right?
Me: 10 weapon damage + 6 attack hits - 2 dodge hits = 14 damage.
Damage exceeds armour, so damage is physical.
Van: 16 body + 8 armour = 24 resistance dice, average 8 hits.
Van: 16 damage - 8 resistance hits = 6 physical damage.
Van: 8 + 16 body / 2 = 16 damage boxes.
Van: 16 damage boxes / 6 physical damage = 3 attacks.

Is there any problem with this?

Just for the heck of it i desided to see how my Ghoul Fomori from trowing adept thread would fare against that van in OP.
Strenght 23 while on kamikaze, using Nodachi the damagecode is 16P AP-2
Assuming the same dicepools as in OP, becouse im lazy:
16 damage + 4 nethits = 20P
with the AP-2 id say avarage 7 hits on resistance from van = 13P damage, damm still takes 2 hits to destroy the van
Using edge on the attack roll should qurantee that one hits takes out the van otherwise you need lots of luck.

Against that modded van he would have to use edge or get lucky and get 2 hits more then the rigger.
But assuming he gets those 2 nethits, its 6P damage on avarage per attack so 3 attacks to take it out, not too shappy for a dude with a sword.

[Faraday]

To sum up this thread.

[Stahlseele]

I get the maxed body, cyberlimbs and armor, but what do the foot anchors do. All they grant is increased protection against Knockdown. Having your feet attached to the pavement just negates any chance to go over the vehicle. With them the van can only go over the troll. I doubt that is any more pleasant.

"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
If i remember the rules correctly, if they don't manage to knock the troll down, no mtter how high the damage done to the Troll IS, then the Van STOPS IMMEDIATELY . .
Which means, if the Troll remains standing, the Troll is basically a road-block. I just think it would be awesome if the 3m Muscle Mountain decided:"'Till here and not an inch farther!"
Then proceeded to stand in the middle of the road, anchors himself down, waits, gets hit, STOPS THE VAN DEAD COLD and actually manages to more or less walk(granted, probably more like limp) away from it too . . Kinda like Hellboy in the first movie . . "RED MEANS STOP!" *WHAM* Car dead.

[Yerameyahu]

The troll would keep his feet in the pavement, but he'd bend at the ankles and knees as the car drove over his face. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Realism does not apply in this situation.
Awesome overrules realism.

[Yerameyahu]

I think a troll getting pancaked is awesome, thankyouverymuch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehehe.

[Railgun]

I think in the situation of troll vs. van, the ankles aren't realistically the ones taking the brunt of the impact. If that troll had any sense, it'd be shoulders down, meaning the entire spine would be the target of the worst of it. Probably not as pleasant either way, but he'd stand a better chance of stopping it cold.

[Whipstitch]

Clearly he'd just use his horns.

[Stahlseele]

No no no no . .
LIKE THIS!: http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/dd...562513_full.gif