Conversion of P->S from Armor, How does it play? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[HugeC]

Hullo, all!

I'm going to be GMing a game of SR4A soon, and in the course of helping one of my players set up his character, I was somewhat shocked by the apparent impact of this rule.

The player in question wanted to be Robocop, so I put together a cybersuite for him targeted at corpsec cops who were badly injured in the line of duty and had lost a limb or three. The suite has 4 cyberlimbs and a cybertorso. He has 10 B/I from Armor 2 on all the pieces. If he wears, say, a lined coat in addition, he'll be sitting at 16/14 armor. He also has like 17 boxes on his physical damage track, but it occurred to me that unless I have badguys shooting nukes at him, he will never take physical damage, only stun, so those 17 boxes aren't doing him any good.

On the face of it, the conversion to stun damage makes sense and I really liked the rule when I first read it, but this particular character makes the rule seem wonky. For those of you who have played, is it as wonky as it seems? Or do all the extra damage resistance dice from lots of armor soak up most of the damage?

I was toying around with possible house rules in my head, like merging the P & S damage tracks into one, where you track P with an 'X' and S with a '/', but sometimes I get the notion to fix things that aren't really broken, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought.

[Saint Sithney]

That amount of armor will soak up small arms fire easy enough when it's just mooks he's dealing with. (16 dice + body) / 3 = estimate -7 DV on average.
If he's worried about being incapacitated by Stun, he should make it a character goal to acquire a Pain editor. Those things negate all negatives of Stun Damage, from dice penalties to Unconsciousness.

That should help protect him from his real enemy, the Magician.

[Yerameyahu]

HugeC, like from WoD? I'd really have to playtest it, but it seems to work okay there.

[hobgoblin]

That amount of armor will soak up small arms fire easy enough when it's just mooks he's dealing with. (16 dice + body) / 3 = estimate -7 DV on average.
If he's worried about being incapacitated by Stun, he should make it a character goal to acquire a Pain editor. Those things negate all negatives of Stun Damage, from dice penalties to Unconsciousness.

That should help protect him from his real enemy, the Magician.

stun damage can still overflow into physical tho, so with enough damage he will go down. It will just take damn long to get there...

[DireRadiant]

So hordes of people shooting pistols at this guy will only be able to knock him out and not really kill him.... until the stun damage wraps into physical after repeated shots.... sounds like the armor works perfectly fine to me.

Stim patches, drugs, pain editor, or the fun adrenaline pump...

[Krrayn]

I thought the armor from cyberlimbs averaged, not totaled?

[Saint Sithney]

I thought the armor from cyberlimbs averaged, not totaled?

Attributes average.
Armor totals.

Unless you think that adding 2 inches of Military grade composite armor to your cyberlegs is less effective than shin guards...

[HugeC]

HugeC, like from WoD? I'd really have to playtest it, but it seems to work okay there.

WoD = World of Darkness? I don't think that's me. I have gone by HugeC for other forums on the interwebs, however I can't recall ever posting on any WoD forums.

Holy cow, Pain Editor = win! And even with the massive essence cost of the suite I made for him, he could theoretically fit one.

Thanks for the perspective guys. I'll let it ride.

[Summerstorm]

Also one could always just try real cyborg. It has a bit of sketchy "ask your GM" rules... but if you allow it he could just be a part of a brain rigging a dronebody. Costs at least 250.000 nuyen and a drone, but it is totally a rigged vehicle: No stun damage, no direct magic manipulation (just the normal "destroy the drone magic"). But it invites a lot strange rules (since he is a rigger) and he needs maintainance and stuff.

Good luck with your group though, and have fun.

[Yerameyahu]

Er, heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant, 'like the way stun/lethal/aggravated damage overlaps in WoD games'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HugeC]

Er, heh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant, 'like the way stun/lethal/aggravated damage overlaps in WoD games'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That makes waaaaaaay more sense than how I read it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Bladehate]

Hey there HugeC. I'm actually in a similar boat as you are since I'm fairly new to the SR4 system (been in love with the setting since I read the Charette books back when I was like...12) and I've been trying to learn the system as quickly as possible. Some of the things that really struck me were the following:

Human (Body 5, soft capped at chargen): 12/7 armor (With FFBA from Arsenal, could probably boost the Impact a bit more with the PPP system)
Ork (Body 8, soft capped at chargen): 17/16 armor (With FFBA, helmet, full set of the PPP gear from Arsenal)
Troll (Body 10, tank build so hardcapped at chargen): 24/23 armor (With all of the above + Ballistic Shield and natural armor)

All of this is achievable at character generation for minimal nuyen cost and about 40 BP spent on Body (except the Troll tank build of course).

All of this has no mechanical impact on the character...not even penalties to Infiltration. That includes no penalties for the Troll, in full kit toting a swat shield.

For perspective, this means someone using an Assault Rifle (6P/-1 AP) would need to get 6 net hits on their attack roll versus the human to inflict Physical damage. Versus the Ork it would be 11 and against the Troll he would need 18.

Someone using an HMG would need 3 net hits vs the human, 8 vs the Ork and 15 vs the Troll.

Panther Cannon: Any hit does Physical to the human. 3 net hits for the Ork to take physical. 10 net hits to do Physical to the Troll.

Thunderstruck Railgun: Physical damage to all, assuming it hits.

So yeah, basically you have to have NPCs running around with the railgun to really inconvenience a troll tank PC. As a consequence, every non-Troll tank that might get targetted would most likely go splat in one shot.

Soak dice pools for the above runners would be as follows:

Human: 17 B / 12 I. That's a rough average of 6 resistance hits vs Ballistic damage and 4 versus Impact damage.
Ork: 25B / 24I. Average of about 8 resistance hits versus both.
Troll: 34B / 33I. Average is about 11 resistance hits versus both.

Obviously, dice being dice, the average is rarely what is actually rolled, potentially turning a minor hit into a deadly wound or completely negating a devastating strike from an artillery piece. Especially when you start throwing Edge, various implants/powers and the Armor/Barrior spells into the mix.

Still, I do think that perhaps the armor stacking rules are actually too lenient in SR. For some reason I never really pictured gun battles as being gun bunnies battering each other to unconsciousness.

I don't mind that the Troll/Cyberzombie/Orksammy tank is such a...well...tank. But it does mean that when you start hitting those numbers, the rest of the team is in pretty deep shit if a response team arrives that's actually able to handle that level of resistance. It also brings up the point that unless you bring the railgun, you don't really have a physical counter to an optimized tank build.

Personally that strikes me as sort of unbalanced, but perhaps thats just me. Does it play out differently once the game is under way?

[CanadianWolverin...]

It is only "seems" unbalanced if your game is combat heavy. Being pretty new to SR in a similar way as you Bladehate (fell in love with the bizarre alternate reality / fantasy setting), I have noticed that even if you are a combat monster, there is a plethora of other ways that the combat monster is forced to default in that will result in glitches and critical glitches for those tests where other specialists or even just competent amateurs will be mopping the floor with them. And heck, if death in combat is the desired goal for any "tank" conventional or improvised explosives have those chunky salsa rules going for them or perhaps ramming them with a speeding vehicle or maybe some poison or pathogen delivery system or ... Well, you probably get the idea by now.

Another thing I think is interesting about the specialties of characters in SR, unlike D&D, it is actually pretty desirable to split the party off to tasks which they excel at, so if characters not competent at combat end up in combat, I would think the team failed somehow or the GM was being a dick with some deus ex machina type thing to screw them where they are weak.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Chargen allows starting 400 bp characters to rack up some pretty intense dice pools if the player spends the legwork turning pages and making gear combos.

In my opinion, the best way to handle this has always been to review your players sheets and shoot down characters that exceed a given dice pool range. I usually set a starting 400 bp character dice pool max of 14-16 on dominant skills. This is easily achievable and still has plenty of room for other skills - the kinds that make a character a character. And doesn't take mixing sourcebooks to min/max.

******

One of the things that can also be taken into consideration is to engage such a target with a large dice pool. With enhanced 7 or 8 agility, a smart link, 5 skill and specialization and some sensor targetting data, a corpsec high threat response unit can unload a narrow burst (god forbid a long or full burst) with maybe 20 dice. Drop 4 to gain 4 dv and start trading out attacking dice to reduce armor and you can get a pretty high DV in a hurry. Toss in APDS for another -4 and you can be looking at some decent hits. With 20 dice, you can drop 4 for damage and 6 more for armor reduction and you are rolling 10 dice to hit. Use mook / drone fire spam to reduce their reaction pool and voila - a hit.

A MMG with a gyro mount can slam into a target for 6 + 2(burst) + 4 (bonus from aiming) = 12p base with a total AP of -2 (base) -4 (APDS) -6 (aiming) = -12 total.

12p, - 12ap before successes. It just gets worse with a Full burst. For a long burst add a further 3 to the DV for a final of 15p, -12ap before hits. A Full Burst starts at 19p, -12ap. Yows.

That will put the hurt on (or kill) the human, wound (or nearly drop) the ork and make the troll take notice (or hurt a ton).

Now remember that you can have, say, 8 of these guys... or more... Why not!

Once you start causing wounds, the Empire shall fall.

Trouble with this is that any other character taking a 12p, -12ap hit is going to be a smear of bits on the ground.

This is why I try and cap dice pools during chargen.

[Ramorta]

Where are you getting this -6 armor mod from aiming?

Take Aim
A character may take aim with a ready ranged weapon (firearm, bow, or
throwing weapon) as a Simple Action. Take Aim actions are cumulative,
but the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of
action—including a Free Action—at any time. Take Aim actions may
be extended over multiple Action Phases and Initiative Passes, even
from Combat Turn to Combat Turn. The maximum number of sequential
Take Aim actions a character may take is equal to one-half the
character’s skill with that weapon, rounded down.
Each Take Aim action applies a +1 dice pool modifier to the
Attack Test.
Take Aim may also be used to line up a shot using an image magnification
system (see p. 150); in this case the +1 Take Aim bonus does
not apply (but range modifiers are neutralized).

The only option for reducing armor is a called shot to ignore armor, which is an all or nothing affair.

Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives
a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better
armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor
is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

Unless you have more dice to attack then your target has to armor it isn't even an option without using edge. Using Bladehate's armor values, that would be -12 dice pool shooting at a human, -17 for the orc, and -24 for the troll.

The easiest way to deal with high armor targets is to use elemental effects. Tasers and Stick N' Shock rounds work nicely, reducing armor by 1/2. Also, mages bypass armor completely.

[Yerameyahu]

Right: a few bursts of S&S will handle everything.

[knasser]

I've found one of the most effective things to do when you have a troll tank in the party - the classic suit of armour with an LMG - is to have everyone fire at him. This will probably provoke a wailing from the troll player as all six security guards open fire on one PC, but you just shrug and say: "who looks most threatening, do you think?"

Realism is the correct solution to a lot of things that appear to be problems in Shadowrun.

[Bull]

Also... Stunbolt. The single cheesiest thing in the entire game of Shadowrun. A decently built mage (5 Magic, 5 Spellcasting, 5 Willpower) can cast Force 10 Stunbolts all day long and rarely take a lick of drain from it.

Likewise, things like Gammascoplomine or Nuerostun that ignore armor.

Of all the things you can do in shadowrun to "Break" a chracter, high body and armor is one of the easiest to deal with.

Bull

[Faraday]

Realism is the correct solution to a lot of things that appear to be problems in Shadowrun.

This. So hard.

[Summerstorm]

Aye. Knasser is right there.

It is always fitting reaction to action: If some giant monster breaks into my facility, with some hardpoint on it or a gyrostabilsator and some HUGE gun, protected by some magical forceshields and counterspelling, clad in military armor or what amounts to TANKLIKE plates. The reaction will always be: "HOLY shit... send whatever we have... NO CALL all we know too. I need that DROPPED"

Sighting of something with armor over ~10-12, explosive or exotic fullautomatic weaponry or massive spirit/critter involvement will not get ONE strike team as usual but ALL available. With military loadout. APDS is standart then, drone support, and yes the good old coordinated fire: First the troll, than the magician.

One thing i find pretty funny too is the healing time of some "monster"... umm characters i mean. When i tried a bit with the system i created a Fomori-Character, 400 BP not overspecialized. Which had (without military armour) 17/21 Armour and 13 dice for damage resistance (and gets 1 less box damage and one shift to stun if the damage is physical). Ah, that isn't THAT much... but even if you hurt him, he just stands up and goes and is ready to rock in about a day or two (He throws 27 dice + medical help +/- mods). Even if one uses the rule of ONLY just body instead of double to heal is is insane. Trolls DO have regeneration in SR *g*

Back to armour and damage: Yeah the whole system doesn't really scale well, upwards OR downwards. At first i liked that you can now use more skill to fix low damage codes. But at some point the whole system totally gets weird. Especially in vehicle combat, rockets and explosions... and smartarmour. BUT i have to say: as long as all stays in the middle the system SEEMS to work fine.

Stick and shock is no good option though. Since electricity is the mostly used/and annoying effect most people have the cheap lining crap in their armour for that. You are just shooting bullets which are more expensive and have no effect on a lot of stuff and work on paramilitary/shadowrunners the same as gel ammo.

[Bladehate]

As a long time GM (not in SR though) I'm pretty familiar with the concept of "consequences" as being the absolute best way to challenge players or make them think an extra time on what is the best course of action.

I'm not a fan of splitting the party either, which has been one of my biggest gripes about SR in the past since it almost forced certain aspects of gameplay into solo adventures. SR4 does seem to combine matrix and astral combat fairly well though, and my advice to every player I've ever had is to make a character that is at least competent in combat. They don't have to be monsters, but at the least a reasonable combat skill/ability of their choice with some cheap specializations to at least give them SOMETHING to do when the bullets start flying.

My problem with the current rule sets is that it allows some incredibly silly values "straight out of the box" at chargen. Again, I don't mind the tank being a tank...but I do find it unfortunate that the only physical way to counter him is with a railgun. Someone really tanking up a troll would take the non-conductivity mod + chemical seals etc meaning an attack would have to actually breach his armor to get a poison/drug into him.

It just seems like actually making a tank necessitates a much too extreme response from the GM.

[Muspellsheimr]

I was toying around with possible house rules in my head, like merging the P & S damage tracks into one, where you track P with an 'X' and S with a '/'

This is essentially (but not exactly) how it works in my games. I will post the details later once I have had some sleep (assuming I remember).

So hordes of people shooting pistols at this guy will only be able to knock him out and not really kill him.... until the stun damage wraps into physical after repeated shots.... sounds like the armor works perfectly fine to me.

Except that is not the problem.
The problem is that small arms fire now knocks the character out faster than it would if it where not converted, doing Physical as normal.

So yeah, basically you have to have NPCs running around with the railgun to really inconvenience a troll tank PC. As a consequence, every non-Troll tank that might get targetted would most likely go splat in one shot.

Again, that is not the problem. There are numerous common methods of dealing with an "overpowered" tank, very few of which will appear to be targeting that character specifically. Often, they would be used even if the character is not a problem.

As above, the problem is that the conversion from Physical to Stun damage from the armor means the character will be taken out of the fight much faster than if the damage simply remained Physical (barring very specific exceptions allowing you to effectively disregard Stun entirely).

This problem comes from the Physical & Stun damage being tracked separately except in the case of Overflow. It generally looks good at first, and even runs fine in the game under most circumstances, but falls apart miserably in more than one situation - all of which can be solved by using a single damage track.


The method I use of combining the Damage Tracks has literally no change to Physical damage impact, reduces the threat of Stun damage, and increases the threat of Stun and Physical damage. Overall lethality remains approximately the same, while taking Physical damage is now always worse than taking Stun damage.

[FriendoftheDork]

In my game, whenever an attack fails to penetrate armor, I halve the damage value of the attack after soak. This means that taking a few boxes of stun is almost always better.

[DBSubashi]

Let us not forget that while a "Robocop" character is hard to bring down in combat, he is going to have a hard time while not on a run. He just can't take off his armor and blend in to the crowd. He is "Robocop" all the time. He is easy to track, easy to find, and hard to hide. He may need special lifestyle upgrades, to keep all those artificial limbs working in sync. And let us not forget he really can't travel very well. Hard to get that much tonnage of 'ware through checkpoints. And even if he is keeping his fake ID's up-to-date, there can't be that many full body recipients in any locale. "Hmm, his ID says he is Joe Blow. But we just had a full body augmentee run rampant downtown yesterday. Let me check this ID again..."

Corporate suits may take a dim view of his showing up for runs. "Really? They brought a fraggin' tank? We just make low grade computer parts! Who hates us this much? This is getting personal!" Remember the "North Hollywood Bank Robbery"? LOTS of police on hand for that. When the HTR teams show up to chase him, they are coming armed for bear/troll. They won't be chased just some gun bunnies, they will be trailing a piece of military hardware. They won't be letting them go easily.

He may also have troubles with hackers disabling his 'ware in combat. If he loses control of a leg for a combat round or 2, problems (and hilarity) will ensue.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As a long time GM (not in SR though) I'm pretty familiar with the concept of "consequences" as being the absolute best way to challenge players or make them think an extra time on what is the best course of action.

I'm not a fan of splitting the party either, which has been one of my biggest gripes about SR in the past since it almost forced certain aspects of gameplay into solo adventures. SR4 does seem to combine matrix and astral combat fairly well though, and my advice to every player I've ever had is to make a character that is at least competent in combat. They don't have to be monsters, but at the least a reasonable combat skill/ability of their choice with some cheap specializations to at least give them SOMETHING to do when the bullets start flying.

My problem with the current rule sets is that it allows some incredibly silly values "straight out of the box" at chargen. Again, I don't mind the tank being a tank...but I do find it unfortunate that the only physical way to counter him is with a railgun. Someone really tanking up a troll would take the non-conductivity mod + chemical seals etc meaning an attack would have to actually breach his armor to get a poison/drug into him.

It just seems like actually making a tank necessitates a much too extreme response from the GM.

Except that a simple Mage build will effectively counter that Tank, Quite nicely in fact...

Even with a Magic of 4 and a Skill of 4 with a Combat Spell Sepcialty, a Mentor Bonus in Combat Spells, and a rating 2 Power Focus... that is a very reasonable build, with a lot of room for other things... With 14 Dice he throws a Force 8 Manabolt (Drain of 4p) or even a Force 8 Stun Bolt (Drain of 3p) is going to really hurt that Troll Tank... even more reasonable spell casting in the Force 4 Range means that he can Multicast multiple times (Say 3 Spells (Stunbolt), with Dice pools of 9, 9, 8; with a Drain of 3s each) can conceivable eliminate that Troll in a single pass, especially if you use Edge on one of those rolls.

Troll Tanks are not really all that harad to actually hurt on the battlefield...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith