Conversion of P->S from Armor, How does it play? Options

[Ramorta]

I'm away from my books at the moment. However, if I remember correctly its page 39 of arsenal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mostly immune though. Heavy Milspec armor with chemseal would be a help. That would make yuo not only immune to Gases and Contact chems (assuming they don't puncture your armor), but the Milspec makes you immune to darts and other 0 DV attacks.

A relatively underused piece of bioware is the Trauma Damper. It's basically Pain Editor lite, reducing all stun damage attacks by 1.

I do like the Trauma Damper... Very Useful indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Raven the Tricks...]

Arsenal, exotic ranged weapons section. AFB so I can't give you a page number ATM. Also not entirely sure you can put a ruthium polymer coating on that particular set of armor by RAW, and you definitely couldn't add a chemseal to it. You really would be better off going with either milspec instead of your pain editor at creation, or at very least full body armor. Of course in either case you are throwing subtlety out the window no matter what your infiltration skill is.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, assuming you disallow the combination of Arcane Arrester (however you get it...SURGE or meta racial) with Astral Hazing, even one of the qualities is borderline mandatory for any mundane character build that doesn't want to be the plaything of a mage character. As an experiement, let's try the following with the current RAW.

Fomori Street Sammy: (45 points)

Qualities:
Restricted Gear (5 pts)
Magic Resistance 4 (20 pts)
Dermal Deposits (10 pts)
Astral Hazing (+10 pts)

Attributes:
Body 10 (40 pts to softcap)
Willpower 4 (30 pts)

Armor values:
24/23 (Milspec armor, FFBA Full Suit, Helmet, ballistic shield, Dermal Deposit Quality, partial PPP set to boost the numbers to their cap)

Armor modifications and gear:
Non-conductivity 5
Chemical Seal
Pain Editor Bioware
Trauma Dampener Bioware

This would make the character effectively immune to inhalation + contact vector poisons and drugs.

The character would convert anything less then a Thunderstruck cannon into stun damage, and soak a hell of a lot of damage even against full auto weapons and panther cannons. Even more so if the player doesn't have the "invincible tank" mindset and uses cover etc like every other normal gunfighter. All stun damage is also reduced by 1 point by the Trauma Dampener.

Furthermore, the character's entire Stun Track just became "free damage" before suffers any real, lasting harm or even feels the effects of combat.

Against magical attacks he would first reduce the Force of the spell by 4 (Astral Hazing) and then halve the remaining force due to AA. If a player argued that the order should be reversed (IE Force halved, then -4 for AH) I would have to shoot them down since AH is clearly a field around the character. A spell has to travel through the field before striking the character and being downgraded by AA. Finally, anytime the caster gets to resist magic, he gets to roll an additional 4 dice against the heavily reduced amounts thrown his way. Basically, even the mage would find it somewhat of a challenge to pour damage into him.

All of this is technically accomplished at character creation with RAW.

For character advancement, this character could pour some of his Nuyen into Orthoskin for even more armor that causes no encumbrance and stacks his values even higher. And I'm sure there are other options that I don't know about. The rest of his money could be spent on boosting his combat abilities (which are admittedly not maxed out...but I doubt they would suck either).

Anyway, that's a maximized tank build according to current RAW.

Please note that you have listed the Pain Editor and the Trauma Damper as Armor Modifications, and you cannot do so, as they are augmentations to the Character, not to his armor... Otherwise this build looks pretty solid... Still would not allow it at my table though...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

'Armor modifications and gear'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

Due to this very problem, I choose to interpret the aiming to defeat armor rules based on armor by piece.

If a target is decked out in 6 different kinds of armor totalling out to 20 some ballistic, I let a player (or NPC) aim to avoid, say, their silly shin guards or what have you. In abstract, this just means that I reject the 'all or nothing' against armor - especially since players are motivated to have so much armor, that armor is easy to get and that it is easier to cap out an attackers dice pool with passive armor and nuyen rather than any appreciable skill.... - and allow a 1 to 1 die swap so long as the swap totals out to an entire piece of armor. A player could choose 8 dice and bypass a target's armor jacket, for example.

Ends up making a lot more sense (in the above example, he shoots for the arm pit or neck or thighs or whatever) and also lets players and GM alike produce big time AP pools to counter crazy mofos in too much armor.

The core to my suggestions, however, remains having everybody, including the drones, shoot the troll. His defense dice will disappear and eventually something will wound him and then the tree goes down heavy.

This works well in theory, until you realize that armor and hit locations in SR4 is abstracted. For instance, a helmet only provides 1-2 dice of armor. Does that mean that a milspec helmet is less protective than leather? No, it means it offers less protected because it covers a small area. On the other hand, Armor Jacket gets 8/6 dice, simply because it covers the whole torso. Combined with a helmet and some leg armor, the armor becomes closer to Full Body Armor (main book). Now if you take a called shot to the head or leg, the target only has a few dice to soak with (+ body), and any weapon will penetrate.

Of course if the target only has the Armor Jacket, then it's something different entirely, and your rule works well. In fact the rule becomes RAW...

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, I don't think that's what he suggested, at all. You can't bypass the weak helmet for a free headshot; you can take a -2 and ignore that 2 armor. Or a -6 and ignore a piece of 6 armor, or -8 to ignore the 8 of the armor jacket. No free lunch, just more options than '-24 to bypass *all* armor'.

[Bladehate]

Arsenal, exotic ranged weapons section. AFB so I can't give you a page number ATM. Also not entirely sure you can put a ruthium polymer coating on that particular set of armor by RAW, and you definitely couldn't add a chemseal to it. You really would be better off going with either milspec instead of your pain editor at creation, or at very least full body armor. Of course in either case you are throwing subtlety out the window no matter what your infiltration skill is.

Yeah I can see the Screech gun being an effective counter. Although the weapon is Single Shot and uses Shotgun ranges. The base DV of 5S isn't really that bad considering it bypasses all armor and is resisted by Willpower. Yeah, ear buds give a +2 resistance bonus...weeee. Still, anyone firing that or attempting to close into range with it would quickly gain a hell of a lot of attention from the troll and at shotgun ranges that LMG is going to sting...

Concerning Ruthenium, the rules state it can only be added to armor that fully covers the body. The cost is 7,5k (no mod for troll size at chargen) for covering a full body suit. Although its technically true an Armor Jacket is not a full body suit the combination of Armor Jacket, Helmet, FFBA (Full Body Suit), PPP system etc most definitely covers the entire body. Part of the reason I spent far more then the alotted 7,5k on Ruthenium for covering a suit is to make sure I could splash it around on all the extra bits. However, if it became a truly critical issue the character could just purchase a Chameleon Suit instead which would only drop his armor values by 2. That option would remove any ambiguity (and you could slap the chem seal on the chameleon suit as well btw...) and actually give the player a pretty solid chunk of cash to spend on other gear.

The Chemseal would be on the FFBA Full Suit btw. Which expressly states that it is a full body suit (including hood and gloves). The FFBA is also where I would place any Thermal Dampening mods.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

'Armor modifications and gear'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ahhh... Must have missed that... Sorry...

Keep the Faith

[FriendoftheDork]

Actually, I don't think that's what he suggested, at all. You can't bypass the weak helmet for a free headshot; you can take a -2 and ignore that 2 armor. Or a -6 and ignore a piece of 6 armor, or -8 to ignore the 8 of the armor jacket. No free lunch, just more options than '-24 to bypass *all* armor'.

I'm not talking about bypassing the helmet, im talking about bypassing the largest piece of armor (in this case armor jacket). Taking a -2 to bypass a helmet is silly, if it covers the entire head, because they you're actually shooting the body, which have much better armor.

Called shot is just weird in SR. I don't see a reason to use it at all in the current incarnation, except for such things as called shot to the leg to slow you down, or called shot to hot the wheels of a car.

[Bladehate]

Called Shot to Disarm can be pretty handy as well.

Especially for a melee combatant using the Arnis de Mano Martial Arts advantage that let's you deal damage on a Disarm.

I agree the called shot to bypass armor rules are very wonky. Its definitely another area that wasn't taken into consideration when they introduced Arsenal with the insane scaling from FFBA and other armor options it introduced.

[Yerameyahu]

The point is, the suggested rule is bypassing individual armor pieces' *worth* of armor.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have not yet read past this post, & do not have the time at the moment. I will respond to any other posts later.

So, let me just re-iterate. My point is not that the troll tanker has no hard counter. My point is that the troll tanker has no real physical counter. And it becomes even worse if you have an even reasonably intelligent person building the toon.

Without the use of magic, heavy weapons, or augmentations, I can construct a character in one of several ways capable of reducing a troll tank build to ashes.

The problem with such characters is not a lack of counters. The problem comes from when the GM feels such counters are necessary, while the rest of the group cannot handle them. This is an entirely different problem, itself with multiple solutions.

Regardless, the point I made was that this was not the concern of the original post, and thus entirely irrelevant. The concern of the original post was that the rule for armor converting damage from Physical to Stun made the character easier to disable than if the rule simply did not exist - something that is rather flawed, considering Stun is supposed to be less dangerous than Physical. I addressed that concern, as well as the related flaw that Stun damage is often times more effective for incapacitation than Physical in a number of regards.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not really a problem. Stun *means* incapacitation, and being knocked out is (itself) a lot safer than being 'wounded out'. It's also logical that P converts to S; bullets on kevlar are like punches.

At worst, it's a system in which very specific circumstances can result in a slight numerical curiosity.

[FriendoftheDork]

The point is, the suggested rule is bypassing individual armor pieces' *worth* of armor.

Which doesn't make sense...

[Dynamo Dave]

Capsule rounds/splash grenades filled with DMSO and your choice of knockout drug or toxin will stop a troll in his tracks. DMSO-Slab has no resistence roll for instance. Instant TKO.

[Yerameyahu]

It doesn't not make sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's exactly like the existing (weird) bypassing armor rule, just with higher granularity (i.e., useful).

[FriendoftheDork]

It doesn't not make sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's exactly like the existing (weird) bypassing armor rule, just with higher granularity (i.e., useful).

Enough with with the arguing, and the weird logic, and with the double negatives! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously though, the already weird rule makes more sense than this. It's harder to bypass both an armored jacket and a helmet than just an armored jacket.

Not so much in these house rules.

If you want to make them more useful you can just halve the penalty, I.E you negate 2 points of armor for every -1 penalty you take. Not sure how you could bypass dermal plating though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not sure how you could bypass dermal plating though.

I would say that you cannot bypass Dermal Armor, or Orthoskin for that matter...

Keep the Faith

[Raven the Tricks...]

Dermal plating you could probably manage to bypass. Dermal sheathing on the other hand would be much more diffcult, particularly rating 3.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dermal plating you could probably manage to bypass. Dermal sheathing on the other hand would be much more diffcult, particularly rating 3.

I was more referring to the armor that is inherent to a race, and/or the Bioware... But yes, You could make an argument for possibly bypassing low level Dermal Sheath (It only covers a particular location after all)... Not so sure about the Dermal Plating though...

Keep the Faith

[Ramorta]

I would say that you cannot bypass Dermal Armor, or Orthoskin for that matter...

Keep the Faith

I shoot you in the eye.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I shoot you in the eye.

Good for you... but at that point, I am going to Penalize you the Full Armor Rating, and teh penalty for a specific called shot to the eye...

Shooting someone in the eye with the basic rules does not allow you to bypass the armor,
and bypassing the armor does not allow you to target a specific location...

If you want to get the benefit of both, you will need to take both penalties...

Keep the Faith

[Ramorta]

You could fluff the attack however you want. I was simply trying to point out that it is possable to bypass your orthoskin. Also, targetting a specific area isn't an option for a called shot. You can target a "vital" location to stage up damage. However, thats a whole other ball park. Not to say that targetting an eye couldn't stage up damage, but unless that is your intent you wont take the penaltys, or gain any of the advantages.

[Faraday]

The point is, the suggested rule is bypassing individual armor pieces' *worth* of armor.

This actually makes Milspec and SWAT armor significantly better, as they're harder to bypass. I approve.