IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> PACKS Proofing, Calling all anal retenative rules lawyers...
Ancient History
post Jun 5 2010, 11:54 PM
Post #1


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



Okay, PACKS has been well received (over 800 downloads!), but I had to proof it myself - I couldn't even use the proofing done by Catalyst's proofers because I was banned from the forums and Basecamp. Still, I've received a very generous offer on the part of Platinum to actually lay PACKS out and make a nice product out of it. So what I would like from those of you willing to participate are a list of the mistakes and suggested corrections for PACKS. Anybody that submits a correction that gets used will have their name (if you want to PM it to me) or handle included in a list of proofers on the final document.

Anybody game?

I'm going to keep a master list running in this first post.

QUOTE (Master List)
  • Make note when commlink cannot use programs at full rating
  • Double check all skillsoft costs
  • Remove Ares Heimdall drones - availability too high
  • Character creation example step 5 - change Wargames skill
  • Negamage - Powers add up to 5 not 4
  • Astral Martial Artist - Should be Astral Sight, not Astral Perceptions; check requirements - Banishing Skill, etc. may need to be removed. Add (1) to Attack of Will
  • Recon Shaman - Mystic Adept (10 BP)
  • Street Alchemist - Mystic Adept (10 BP)
  • Combat Rigger - Remove 1 Large drone rack; recalculate.
  • Drone Whisperer - Remove 2 mini drone racks; recalculate.
  • Gunsel Karcist - Need image link for smartlink. Savalette Guardian mods come from Arsenal.
  • Resonance Warrior - Move armor-piercing options to different programs (if possible)
  • Bodyguard - Only needs Body 5 to wear armor w/o penalty
  • Cover Ops - Check sound suppressor, Ingram Smartgun X comes with one
  • Fire Support - Fix cybereyes Essence cost; recalculate
  • Off the Shelf Samurai - Check Essence
  • Posthuman Operative - Cyberskull out of Availability, rework w/o
  • Skillwire Junkie - Check skillware prices against SR4A
  • Sniper - Desert Strike not Desert Fox; check silencer
  • Thrill Ganger - Projectile Weapons should be Archery
  • Anthrorigger - Remove Evo Orderly
  • Basic Runner II - Only needs Body 4 to wear armor w/o penalty, total armor should be 8/8
  • Combat Biker - Check manual control override
  • Exorcist - Walther PB-120 comes from Arsenal
  • Vampire Hunter - Contacts also need an image link to support the smartlink and a second rating


Proofers: Bladehate, crizh, Da9iel, Deadmannumberone, Glyph, gtjormungand, Mesh, Nomad, Raven the Trickster, Ryu, tagz, wiley
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Dragon Girl
post Jun 6 2010, 12:24 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 322
Joined: 19-July 09
From: CAS
Member No.: 17,410



I don't know that I'm that good at picking out things that are wrong just by reading through, but if you guys need an artist, let me know- I'm willing to lend a pencil to community projects.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saint Sithney
post Jun 6 2010, 01:54 AM
Post #3


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,705
Joined: 5-October 09
From: You are in a clearing
Member No.: 17,722



You're mainly looking for errors in the gears, not the polish, yeah?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jun 6 2010, 01:59 AM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



I'll consider anything, if you have a worthwhile suggestion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bladehate
post Jun 6 2010, 02:14 AM
Post #5


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,661



===Page 12, Adept Sets:

Magic 4:

Negamage: Cloak 4 (1), Iron Will 4 (2), Spell Resistance 4 (2)

Adds up to 5 points rather then 4.

I'll add more if I notice anything else.

-Update(s):

Almost all of the kits contain Knowledge Skills. Some of these kits contain upwards of 30 or more BPs spent purely on Knowledge Skills (The Astral Martial Artist for example) with a recommended Logic + Intuition total of 6 (IE 18 "free" Knowledge skills). That means some of these kits are basically recommending that a player spend 12 or more BPs on Knowledge skills. This seems like a pretty heavy investment for what is essentially RP fluff.

As an alternative, I would suggest changing the Knowledge Skill section to a list of "Suggested Knowledge Skills". I think for many people, Knowledge skills are one of the areas they have the hardest time selecting so having some suggestions included in the PACKS would definitely encourage and guide people into making intelligent, relevant choices.

By leaving it as Suggested Knowledge skills, you're not guiding newbies into potentially dangerous water where they are spending significant BP amounts on skills that they might never use but still helping them to pick relevant RP choices for their Knowledge skills. I realize that a more experienced player can easily spot this and backtrack the various knowledge skill points spent, and adjust it to their allotment of free Knowledge skill points. But this strikes me as counter productive to the stated goals of PACKS: Giving new players guidance solid guidance, and giving even experienced players a faster method to generate a character.

This is just my opinion though.

===Page 12, Astral Martial Artist (100 BP).

In the requirements, it lists the Astral Perception (5 pt) Quality (Among many others of course). I'm pretty sure that this is intended to be the Astral Sight (5 pts) quality from Street Magic which is only available to mundanes.

Please also note that Astral Sight Quality only allows a mundane to learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but does not allow them to learn the Banishing skill which is listed further down in the kit.

If this is an oversight on Astral Perception (Banishing would be logical given the ability to learn Assensing + Astral Combat) or if my Errata is not updated I apologize for mentioning it.

Sorry. Running out of steam now (5 AM at the moment). Might pick this up at a later date.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caine Hazen
post Jun 6 2010, 03:18 AM
Post #6


MechRigger Delux
***

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 1,151
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Hanger 18, WPAFB
Member No.: 1,657



I haven't compaired the first PT of your system with what you did here, but my anal retetive guys had submitted 5 pages of notes on pricing/points errors and other little things. I'll see if you changed any of those things when I have a few minutes to spare.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Da9iel
post Jun 6 2010, 04:13 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 556
Joined: 28-May 04
From: Moorhead, MN, USA
Member No.: 6,367



QUOTE (Bladehate @ Jun 5 2010, 08:14 PM) *
===Page 12, Astral Martial Artist (100 BP).

In the requirements, it lists the Astral Perception (5 pt) Quality (Among many others of course). I'm pretty sure that this is intended to be the Astral Sight (5 pts) quality from Street Magic which is only available to mundanes.

Please also note that Astral Sight Quality only allows a mundane to learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but does not allow them to learn the Banishing skill which is listed further down in the kit.

If this is an oversight on Astral Perception (Banishing would be logical given the ability to learn Assensing + Astral Combat) or if my Errata is not updated I apologize for mentioning it.

Sorry. Running out of steam now (5 AM at the moment). Might pick this up at a later date.

Change it to Adept and spend the point on astral sight?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheWanderingJewe...
post Jun 6 2010, 04:54 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 10-January 10
Member No.: 18,025



My cadre are getting together to make characters. We'll take a look at it
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
crizh
post Jun 6 2010, 06:06 AM
Post #9


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,666
Joined: 29-February 08
From: Scotland
Member No.: 15,722



I posted the ones I had already found in the main thread, which were mainly errors I found last March. You fixed a lot of little things already but I assume you made a lot of SR4A fixes that will need proofing.

I'll try to have a good look through it tomorrow. Glad to hear you've found someone to do layout, it looks odd without the stuff Adam already did....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tagz
post Jun 6 2010, 06:40 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 492
Joined: 28-July 09
Member No.: 17,440



Skillwire Junkie
After the increase in costs to Activesofts in SR4A, wouldn't the prices of the Skillsoft clusters need to be adjusted for the increase? I think they are still listed on Packs as the price taken out of Unwired, but the price is a 20% reduction in total cost of all Activesofts, Knowsofts, and Liguasofts, if I recall correctly, so I think they need a price change. Though this will make this particular pack look far less appealing sadly. Sorry, don't have my books on me at the moment to double check myself.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtjormungand
post Jun 6 2010, 09:46 AM
Post #11


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 31-July 08
Member No.: 16,182



Pg 14, Recon Shaman:
Mystic Adept costs 10 BP, not 5.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gtjormungand
post Jun 6 2010, 09:51 AM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 31-July 08
Member No.: 16,182



Pg 23, Posthuman Operative
A cyberskull has an availability of 16, so that should be noted that this package shouldn't be chosen by normal PC's.

Pg 31, Vampire Hunter
Contacts also need an image link to support the smartlink and a second rating, +125 nuyen.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abstruse
post Jun 6 2010, 09:57 AM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,451
Joined: 21-April 03
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 4,488



I haven't looked over all the PACKS yet (still re-reading all my 4e books to catch up as it is since I've never played this edition and my friends want me to run a game), but it might be good for flavor text if they were "labeled". Basically, something like a project I abandoned for 3rd several years ago where you have a set of skills that would have been imparted by various organizations. Lone Star's training, for example, would be pretty uniform across the board -- teaching the same style investigation, interrogation, firearms, armed/unarmed combat, etc. skills. Same for specific corp's security and military. UCAS boot camp's going to train everyone the same skills the same way, then move on to specialization after basic.

Again, this is more flavor than mechanics, but it would probably help out a lot with NPC or even PC creations when they have specific backgrounds.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FriendoftheDork
post Jun 6 2010, 10:14 AM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,288
Joined: 4-September 06
From: The Scandinavian Federation
Member No.: 9,300



I could help proofread for basic spelling errors, but I'm not good enough at min-maxing to make balance suggestions. I think other people here has more experience in making broken characters and thus can see the pitfalls.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mäx
post Jun 6 2010, 11:41 AM
Post #15


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,803
Joined: 3-February 08
From: Finland
Member No.: 15,628



QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Jun 6 2010, 12:14 PM) *
I could help proofread for basic spelling errors, but I'm not good enough at min-maxing to make balance suggestions. I think other people here has more experience in making broken characters and thus can see the pitfalls.

I dont think this system is meant to make min-maxed characters.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dumori
post Jun 6 2010, 12:27 PM
Post #16


Dumorimasoddaa
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,687
Joined: 30-March 08
Member No.: 15,830



Flavor text and/or a quick description of the pack for each one would add alot to it in both polish and ease of use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Udoshi
post Jun 6 2010, 12:46 PM
Post #17


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,782
Joined: 28-August 09
Member No.: 17,566



QUOTE (Dumori @ Jun 6 2010, 05:27 AM) *
Flavor text and/or a quick description of the pack for each one would add alot to it in both polish and ease of use.


Agreed. Short, witty one-liners can do wonders to sell a concept.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Jun 6 2010, 01:26 PM
Post #18


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



Kits - the Joe/Jane Commlink´s response does not support the System, and therefore programs. Several ways do deal with that - add a warning note or optimisation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FriendoftheDork
post Jun 6 2010, 01:30 PM
Post #19


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,288
Joined: 4-September 06
From: The Scandinavian Federation
Member No.: 9,300



QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 6 2010, 01:41 PM) *
I dont think this system is meant to make min-maxed characters.


Which is why you want min-maxers to test it to see if it can be abused.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Jun 6 2010, 02:05 PM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Bladehate)
Almost all of the kits contain Knowledge Skills. Some of these kits contain upwards of 30 or more BPs spent purely on Knowledge Skills (The Astral Martial Artist for example) with a recommended Logic + Intuition total of 6 (IE 18 "free" Knowledge skills). That means some of these kits are basically recommending that a player spend 12 or more BPs on Knowledge skills. This seems like a pretty heavy investment for what is essentially RP fluff.

As an alternative, I would suggest changing the Knowledge Skill section to a list of "Suggested Knowledge Skills". I think for many people, Knowledge skills are one of the areas they have the hardest time selecting so having some suggestions included in the PACKS would definitely encourage and guide people into making intelligent, relevant choices.

By leaving it as Suggested Knowledge skills, you're not guiding newbies into potentially dangerous water where they are spending significant BP amounts on skills that they might never use but still helping them to pick relevant RP choices for their Knowledge skills. I realize that a more experienced player can easily spot this and backtrack the various knowledge skill points spent, and adjust it to their allotment of free Knowledge skill points. But this strikes me as counter productive to the stated goals of PACKS: Giving new players guidance solid guidance, and giving even experienced players a faster method to generate a character.

I'm of the favor of leaving it as is, for a couple of reasons. One, if the players meet the minimums they can just use their free Knowledge and Language skill points to buy the skills. Two, Logic + Intuition = 6 isn't terrible - it is (or should be) about average. Third, I don't consider them pure fluff investments, though I know many gamers do. That's because they don't play to utilize their character's knowledge skills.

QUOTE (Abstruse)
Again, this is more flavor than mechanics, but it would probably help out a lot with NPC or even PC creations when they have specific backgrounds.

This idea was floated several times when I was putting PACKS together, I just generally dislike limiting player's concept of the profiles this way. Also, there were space concerns. I dunno about this one.

QUOTE (Ryu)
Kits - the Joe/Jane Commlink´s response does not support the System, and therefore programs. Several ways do deal with that - add a warning note or optimisation.

This was actually intentional in many cases, since the program would run at a lower rating but give room and incentive for expansion. I mean, it can be done, it might be a good idea to put it up in the warning/minimums line. What does everyone else think?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bladehate
post Jun 6 2010, 02:16 PM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,661



I see your point Ancient.

To counter that, I would like to point out that if "many players" consider them pure RP fluff, having an extensive listing of kits with heavy investments in what they consider RP fluff is a good way to alienate a portion of your potential users.

By making the suggestions on what Knowledge skills to take, rather then assigning exact point values, you are still guiding new players and even experienced players alike. That would actually encourage them into making Knowledge Skill choices that are intelligent and relevant, and helping more players to realize that Knowledge Skills have value and are not just filler (IE TV-shows of the 20th Century).

But that's just my opinion of course.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dumori
post Jun 6 2010, 02:21 PM
Post #22


Dumorimasoddaa
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,687
Joined: 30-March 08
Member No.: 15,830



Put it up in a warnings line.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abstruse
post Jun 6 2010, 04:02 PM
Post #23


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,451
Joined: 21-April 03
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 4,488



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 6 2010, 03:05 PM) *
This idea (labeling the PACKS with job-based names rather than generic ones) was floated several times when I was putting PACKS together, I just generally dislike limiting player's concept of the profiles this way. Also, there were space concerns. I dunno about this one.

Maybe as an addition then or maybe a suggestion at the end? It also doesn't have to be brand name related. In terms of number crunching, I seriously doubt that KE and Lone Star officers as well as rank-and-file security guards are going to be trained differently. Pistols, Longarms (Shotgun), Clubs, Etiquette, Intimidation. They're going to get training in the Predator (or a competing manufacturer's product), a shotgun, nightstick, and taser. They're going to know how to talk to different members of society on a basic level. They're going to have "command presence" to walk into a situation and show they're in charge. KE/LS SWAT, DocWagon HTR, various corpsec units, etc. are all going to be trained in the same weapons, tactics, etc. Grunt soldiers are going to know how to fire an assault rifle and a pistol and how to throw a grenade, plus some survival odds and ends. Doesn't matter if it's UCAS Marines, Aztlan Army, or Ares's regulars. So on and so forth.

Like I said, this is more useful for me as a GM than it would be for players, letting me throw together NPCs quickly...but it'll also help fill in the stats when one of my players says, "He was a Lone Star officer who was kicked off the force when Knight Errant got the Seattle contract and couldn't leave his sister who's in the hospital and had to start running to pay her medical bills when his corporate DocWagon ran out."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abstruse
post Jun 6 2010, 04:10 PM
Post #24


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,451
Joined: 21-April 03
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 4,488



QUOTE (Bladehate @ Jun 6 2010, 03:16 PM) *
By making the suggestions on what Knowledge skills to take, rather then assigning exact point values, you are still guiding new players and even experienced players alike. That would actually encourage them into making Knowledge Skill choices that are intelligent and relevant, and helping more players to realize that Knowledge Skills have value and are not just filler (IE TV-shows of the 20th Century).

I'm with AH on this one. I finally took a good look at the Knowledge Skills for 4e and they're actually useful, unlike 3e in which they were only useful if you were a rigger, decker, or magic user with the appropriate sourcebook. One line in Runner's Companion I read a few minutes ago really hits it for me...
QUOTE
>Most people believe what technology tells them. If you think the cops are followign you, nothing gets them off your tail faster than an "officer down" call that is supposedly just two bocks over. Know the codes the cops and corp security use, and have your hacker go to town using them.
>Hard Exit
(Runner's Companion, p25)

That looks like a Security Procedures check to me...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FriendoftheDork
post Jun 6 2010, 04:32 PM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,288
Joined: 4-September 06
From: The Scandinavian Federation
Member No.: 9,300



QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jun 6 2010, 06:10 PM) *
I'm with AH on this one. I finally took a good look at the Knowledge Skills for 4e and they're actually useful, unlike 3e in which they were only useful if you were a rigger, decker, or magic user with the appropriate sourcebook. One line in Runner's Companion I read a few minutes ago really hits it for me...

That looks like a Security Procedures check to me...


The problem here is that knowledge skills is something the players think they have already. For instance, knowing that security guards often must report in at intervals could be Security Procedures skill, but a player might just know this even if his PC doesn't have the skill. This is often called players being smart or inventive, but they're really using their own knowledge to solve problems.

You might think that Security Systems skill could be useful in taking on Matrix Systems or physical security, but in the end this is resolved by Hacking and Hardware.

Now a GM could check on the skills every time a player does something clever, but it would be very tedious, and really if the PC should have a knowldge skill for every little tidbit of info a player might have, then 400BPs would not be enough.

Thus Knowledge Skills become mostly for fluff reasons.. you want your security hacker to have some Security Systems knowledge skill even if the GM never calls for a check or just gives you info for free. Other than that it's mostly a matter of "WTF is that" knowledge skills such as Magic Background, Parazoology, Spirit World etc. where the player can actually get info from the GM during play they don't know or remember that can be very useful.

Knowledge skills are not useless, but some of them are unless the GM and players really try to make it otherwise. For example, the GM can invent a situation where befriending a potential contact becomes automatic if the talking PC has any "Classical Music" knowledge skills and can roleplay a conversation about it. But these situations are few and far between.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 16th July 2024 - 07:44 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.