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> Upgrading Drone, Processor (Response)
Tomothy
post Jun 6 2010, 03:09 PM
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Can I upgrade a drone's response the same way I would a commlink?
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hobgoblin
post Jun 6 2010, 03:35 PM
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i would say yes, just note that SR4a have a max upgrade limit of 2 above what it comes with or something like that.
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Raven the Tricks...
post Jun 6 2010, 03:39 PM
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That still lets you get to 5 for most drones and 6 for security/military drones (basically anything that has a gun).
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 6 2010, 05:21 PM
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Or you could just make your own chips and replace them entirely...

Upgrades can only take you so far, Custom Design is the way to go...

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Railgun
post Jun 6 2010, 08:33 PM
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I don't want to jack the thread but I figured asking this here would be better than making a new thread about it. I'm looking into crossing into rigger territory but I can't find things like what determines drone Response and stuff. Can I get pointed the right way please?
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Mantis
post Jun 6 2010, 08:49 PM
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Pg 222 SR4a. Most drone are rating 3 devices. Military and security are rating 4 devices. The rating determines base hardware stats for a drone and the pilot determines the firewall and system.
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Udoshi
post Jun 6 2010, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Mantis @ Jun 6 2010, 01:49 PM) *
Pg 222 SR4a. Most drone are rating 3 devices. Military and security are rating 4 devices. The rating determines base hardware stats for a drone and the pilot determines the firewall and system.


And then they can be upgraded from that as usual, by slapping the right response chip in, or installing a system/firewall/pilot program.

Keep in mind, though, that the usual limits apply - reponse limits system, system limits program rating.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 6 2010, 11:22 PM
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I think 'custom designing' a chip still counts as an upgrade.
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hobgoblin
post Jun 7 2010, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (Mantis @ Jun 6 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Pg 222 SR4a. Most drone are rating 3 devices. Military and security are rating 4 devices. The rating determines base hardware stats for a drone and the pilot determines the firewall and system.

unless i missed something, pilot have no say about firewall.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 7 2010, 01:40 AM
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Well, Firewall's a program, System limits programs, Pilot is System. And, of course, Response limits System (>Pilot=System>Firewall).
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hobgoblin
post Jun 7 2010, 01:44 AM
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firewall is a special kind of program tho, that cant be cashed or shut down. And its rating is independent if the system rating.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 7 2010, 01:49 AM
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Ah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Well, then I can't help explain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Maybe he meant that they *start* with Firewall equal to Pilot, but I didn't see that in the book either.

Incidentally, what's the page reference for 'Firewall is special'? I want to mark it for reference.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 7 2010, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 6 2010, 07:49 PM) *
Ah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Well, then I can't help explain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Maybe he meant that they *start* with Firewall equal to Pilot, but I didn't see that in the book either.

Incidentally, what's the page reference for 'Firewall is special'? I want to mark it for reference.


The way it is listed... It is an Attribute, not a Program (at least not a program that is impinged upon by System or Response Attributes)...

And as for Creating your own Response Chips, Signal Hardware, and Firewall/System Software... I classify them as Custom Architecture, whereas the "Standard" upgrades are just that... Upgrades... Yes, I know that any increase could be called an Upgrade, but I tend to see them as two very different things however (May be Semantics, but there you go)...

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Yerameyahu
post Jun 7 2010, 02:41 AM
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*shrug* It's software, so you'd think 'program', but I was just wondering if there was a specific place where it says 'Firewall's special'. Pilot, for example, is explicitly a program, right? Except it is also explicitly a 'special System software'. It's all very muddy.

I guess that's a house rule, then. You wouldn't really think Hardware would cover *designing* and fabbing your own chips, but I never really understood where the 'upgrade +2' rule came from anyway.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 7 2010, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 6 2010, 08:41 PM) *
*shrug* It's software, so you'd think 'program', but I was just wondering if there was a specific place where it says 'Firewall's special'. Pilot, for example, is explicitly a program, right? Except it is also explicitly a 'special System software'. It's all very muddy.

I guess that's a house rule, then. You wouldn't really think Hardware would cover *designing* and fabbing your own chips, but I never really understood where the 'upgrade +2' rule came from anyway.


Actually, The Design portion I would port over to a Knowledge Skill... Electrical Engineering comes immediately to mind, or something Similar... The Hardware Skill becomes your Build/Repair Skill for actual Production. As for the Naming COnventions.. They are a bit wierd.

As for the Upgrade +2 Rule... I believe that it was to stop someone from buying the absolute cheapest Comlink and upgrading it to Rating 6 for less than actually buying the Best (Fairlight) and then upgrading to Rating 6... Generally cheaper to go the first route...

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Yerameyahu
post Jun 7 2010, 03:00 AM
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Yeah, but that's another house rule. Knowledge skills don't actually do things. :/

Well, I'd say you have to replace the chip to upgrade it, so you're paying about the same costs. That's how retail works: different models are pre-configured and you pay for that. As it is, you'd never buy the Caliban, because the two lower models are nearly identical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mantis
post Jun 7 2010, 03:22 AM
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Sorry for the confusion. Yes firewall starts at the base drone rating.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 7 2010, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 6 2010, 08:00 PM) *
Yeah, but that's another house rule. Knowledge skills don't actually do things. :/

Well, I'd say you have to replace the chip to upgrade it, so you're paying about the same costs. That's how retail works: different models are pre-configured and you pay for that. As it is, you'd never buy the Caliban, because the two lower models are nearly identical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Actually it is not a houserule... Knowledge Skills do let you do things... You would need a functional schematic, and that design would be produced with the Electrical Engineering Knowledge Skill... once you have that, you would use that schematic and the Hardware Active Skill to build the hardware for the drone/comlink/whatever...

Just because it is not an Active Skill does not mean that it is useless, or does absolutely nothing...

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Yerameyahu
post Jun 8 2010, 01:19 AM
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I meant that there aren't rules (AFAIK?) for the use of Knowledges in that way; what's the threshold for a given design, etc. It's a house rule in that the GM has to make a ruling.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 8 2010, 02:13 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 7 2010, 06:19 PM) *
I meant that there aren't rules (AFAIK?) for the use of Knowledges in that way; what's the threshold for a given design, etc. It's a house rule in that the GM has to make a ruling.


Okay, I see where you are coming from... but there are a ton of instances where a GM has to make a ruling... Doesn't actually make it a houserule though... Shadorun requires a bit of GM intervention regardless of the style of game you run... so I guess that I do not see that as making a rule... I just see it as clarifying/codifying what the Player is looking for within the frameworks of the rules... as long as the standards remain the same, I have no qualms with it...

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Jaid
post Jun 8 2010, 02:30 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 7 2010, 08:19 PM) *
I meant that there aren't rules (AFAIK?) for the use of Knowledges in that way; what's the threshold for a given design, etc. It's a house rule in that the GM has to make a ruling.

Odds are good the average character has several house rules in it (for example, your contacts, who are likely not canon characters). Odds are even better that any given gaming session has numerous house rules being used, and you don't even notice it.

just because it's a house rule to come up with the exact difficulties of the task, doesn't make it any less valid of a point that you would use a knowledge skill to design a new response chip.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 8 2010, 04:14 AM
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Sure. And just to reiterate, doing so wouldn't count as 'not an upgrade'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *That* would certainly be a house rule.
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HugeC
post Jun 8 2010, 06:39 PM
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Let me see if I have all this right.

Normally a vehicle or drone's matrix attributes would equal its device rating of 3, so Response, Signal, System and Firewall would all be 3 (SR4A p222). Security vehicles gets Device rating 4, and military vehicles get Device rating 5.

Except that if a vehicle or drone has a Pilot program (and they always do), it uses Pilot instead of System (SR4A p245). Since programs run on a device can't have a higher rating than the device's System rating (SR4A p222 again), than means that Firewall is also dropped down to the Pilot rating. This makes most vehicles far more readily hackable than their device rating would indicate, though drones have Pilot 3 so they are not hosed by their Pilot.

There is a rule that says a "device" can't have its ratings improved by more than 2 (SR4A p222). Upgrading a normal vehicle or drone to Pilot/System/Firewall/Response/Signal 5 is allowed, and for security or military vehicles, it could go as high as 6 or 7 respectively.

Personally, I think these rules don't make too much sense in combination. Credsticks start at Device rating 6. Credsticks. You could upgrade your credstick, which cost you 25 nuyen to buy, to run at Response 8. Your Fairlight Caliban? That's capped at Response 6.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 8 2010, 07:14 PM
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A credstick is a peripheral node, not a commlink. Besides, you'd still be paying the full cost of the 7 or 8 upgrade, *if* you managed the availability. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

People have told me that Firewall is excepted from the System limitation, and there are (some) gear examples in Unwired and SR4A that support that.
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HugeC
post Jun 9 2010, 03:23 AM
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Allright, after some more poring over rules, I guess there's no upgrading a credstick to Response 8 since the highest you can go is 6 (or at least the chart on p. 222 in SR4A doesn't go higher than 6). Also, SR4A p221 seems to indicate that a credstick, as a peripheral node, can't run a persona, so you can't use it to log onto the matrix. That is good, since it would be goofy if a credstick were more awesome than a Caliban. I had these disturbing images in my head of hackers with fancy upgraded commlinks crying because they got owned in cybercombat by some guy with a credstick slotted into his datajack! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Still, I have trouble imagining why a credstick could be rated at 6 when, say, a Steel Lynx is capped at 5. I mean other than, "because that's what the rulebook says." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I also can't find an example in SR4A where Firewall is higher than System, and I don't have Unwired, so if there really is no limit for Firewall based on Pilot, that's great! Would have been nice if that exception were listed in the basic rules, but oh well. Does that mean that Response (and therefore System/Pilot) going lower due to too many programs running on the node doesn't reduce the Firewall rating?
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