Making the most out of Invoking/Binding, How to handle the drain? Options

[Tyro]

It seems like SR4A is forever tweaking things that never bothered me a whit. And yet the grenade rules...

Oh well.

Hear, hear!

[Dreadlord]

Hear, hear!

Yeah, this is one that caught me by surprise, as I was convinced it was still around, and even told a new Shadowrun player he could do that. I then double-checked to give him a page reference, and to my surprise, it wasn't there!

I considered house-ruling it back, but to tell you the truth, my players never take drain damage, so making it a little tougher so that they MIGHT take a box or two when they cast too hard is not a bad thing. Maybe that is why they took it away in SR4/SR4A, was to make it a little painful given the new dice mechanic.

Giving up dice to reduce Area-of-Effect IS still there, though... Doesn't seem consistent. Still, it is a "meh!" from me either way.

Of course, back on topic, the loss of this option when Binding/Invoking/Banishing Bound Spirits makes it even MORE risky in 4th edition, as this is one of the few times when Drain becomes significantly high.

[Tyro]

Actually, my point was that I hate grenade rules :-/

[Banaticus]

If you are overcasting and afraid of instant-gibbing yourself due to drain, you might also want to use the Shapechange spell to take the form of something with more body. All those hits divided by 2 turn into extra damage boxes.

Or cast Shapechange multiple times, following this list, to get up to a Body of 12 (plus extra damage boxes from extra hits): http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=940920

[Tyro]

Or cast Shapechange multiple times, following this list, to get up to a Body of 12 (plus extra damage boxes from extra hits): http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=940920

I would not allow this as GM, nor I think would many others.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would not allow this as GM, nor I think would many others.

Well, it is mechanically not very smart... for each spell, I would enforce that you would have to maintain it to keep the baseline body rating to qualify fo rhte next spell... so after 2 spells, you have lost 4 Dice, and then it is -6, -8, -10, etc. By the time that you have actually climbed that ladder, you have so many dice penalties that you are pretty ineffective. I mean really, -12 to any action (Sustaining 6 Spells) is just brutal. Good luck doing anything... You could, of course, sustain them with Foci, but that route leads to addiction...

Keep the Faith

[Tyro]

Well, it is mechanically not very smart... for each spell, I would enforce that you would have to maintain it to keep the baseline body rating to qualify fo rhte next spell... so after 2 spells, you have lost 4 Dice, and then it is -6, -8, -10, etc. By the time that you have actually climbed that ladder, you have so many dice penalties that you are pretty ineffective. I mean really, -12 to any action (Sustaining 6 Spells) is just brutal. Good luck doing anything... You could, of course, sustain them with Foci, but that route leads to addiction...

Keep the Faith

You could also have spirits sustain them.

[Trevalier]

You could also have spirits sustain them.

With a possession tradition and the Channeling metamagic, you could channel one of the spirits to increase your Body stat. Depending on the force of the spirit, it might be nearly as effective as a whole chain of shapechanges.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You could also have spirits sustain them.

Indeed, forgot about that one...

Keep the Faith

[Sheala]

Summoning/Binding are also unspecced; the spirits available to me are Guardian/Air/Man/Guidance/Task, and the tradition is Materialisation based, with Wil+Cha as Drain attributes. What specialization do you guys recommend?

Just wanted to ask what tradition you have, It looks nice for my next PC elven summoner... or is it a custom tradition ?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just wanted to ask what tradition you have, It looks nice for my next PC elven summoner... or is it a custom tradition ?

Looks Custom to me... what with the 4 most favorable spirits out there...
It appears to be a variation of Voodoo, but with Water replaced by Air, and the Spirits are Materialization rather than Possession.

Keep the Faith

[Elfenlied]

Just wanted to ask what tradition you have, It looks nice for my next PC elven summoner... or is it a custom tradition ?

It's a custom tradition based on Greek mythology, where every spirit represents one of the Greek gods:
Zeus=Air
Athena=Guidance
Hephaestos=Task
Ares=Guardian
Hades=Man

Of course, you could switch some of them, e.g. Poseidon=Water, but it's a shame you're limited to 5 spirits per tradition. With the Greek gods known for their capricious nature, Charisma seemed like the proper Drain attribute. My mage, who happens to be an elf girl, has an Ally spirit named "Hercules", who combines some of the gods' traits.

Or, if you go toxic, I suppose you could call him "Kratos" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a custom tradition based on Greek mythology, where every spirit represents one of the Greek gods:
Zeus=Air
Athena=Guidance
Hephaestos=Task
Ares=Guardian
Hades=Man

Of course, you could switch some of them, e.g. Poseidon=Water, but it's a shame you're limited to 5 spirits per tradition. With the Greek gods known for their capricious nature, Charisma seemed like the proper Drain attribute. My mage, who happens to be an elf girl, has an Ally spirit named "Hercules", who combines some of the gods' traits.

Or, if you go toxic, I suppose you could call him "Kratos" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Do you have any Flavor/Fluff text describing the Tradition at Large?

Keep the Faith

[Elfenlied]

Do you have any Flavor/Fluff text describing the Tradition at Large?

Keep the Faith

Yeah, I've got a general description that we use in our group. Note that the original was written in German, and I've translated it on the fly:
The Greek Tradition
Concept: With the rise of magic in the 6th world, the belief in the Greek pantheon has experienced a revival. Greek magicians typically worship the pantheon of the twelve Olympians, though the worship of lesser demigods and heroes is not unheard of.
Combat: Guardian
Detection: Guidance
Health: Air
Illusion: Man
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower+Charisma
Modern Greek religion is based upon the worship of the twelve Olympians though rites and ceremony. The traditional pantheon consists of Zeus (King of Gods), Hera (Queen of Gods), Poseidon (God of the seas), Demeter (Goddess of fertility), Hades (God of the Underworld), Hestia (Goddess of Home and Hearth), Aphrodite (Goddess of love), Apollo (God of art), Ares (God of War), Artemis (Goddess of the Hunt), Athena (Goddess of Wisdom), Dyonisus (God of Wine), Hephaestus (God of craftsmanship) and Hermes (Messenger of the Gods). They typically reside on Mt Olympus, with the notable exception of Hades.
Unlike other faiths, the Greek gods are not infallible; in fact, some were rather infamous for their vices and debauchery. The results were demigods, and some Greek revivalists believe that their powers are derived from such divine intervention. Others view it as fate’s will, for even the gods themselves cannot defy fate. All agree, however, that the gods are capricious, and to earn their favor, one must tread carefully.
Some see themselves as oracles, interpreting fate's will, while others call upon the denizens of Elysium and Tartarus to assist them.

[Muspellsheimr]

The ability to withhold focus dice for drain was removed in SR4A.

No, it was removed in the fourth printing. The Anniversary is the sixth printing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I've got a general description that we use in our group. Note that the original was written in German, and I've translated it on the fly:
The Greek Tradition
Concept: With the rise of magic in the 6th world, the belief in the Greek pantheon has experienced a revival. Greek magicians typically worship the pantheon of the twelve Olympians, though the worship of lesser demigods and heroes is not unheard of.
Combat: Guardian
Detection: Guidance
Health: Air
Illusion: Man
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower+Charisma
Modern Greek religion is based upon the worship of the twelve Olympians though rites and ceremony. The traditional pantheon consists of Zeus (King of Gods), Hera (Queen of Gods), Poseidon (God of the seas), Demeter (Goddess of fertility), Hades (God of the Underworld), Hestia (Goddess of Home and Hearth), Aphrodite (Goddess of love), Apollo (God of art), Ares (God of War), Artemis (Goddess of the Hunt), Athena (Goddess of Wisdom), Dyonisus (God of Wine), Hephaestus (God of craftsmanship) and Hermes (Messenger of the Gods). They typically reside on Mt Olympus, with the notable exception of Hades.
Unlike other faiths, the Greek gods are not infallible; in fact, some were rather infamous for their vices and debauchery. The results were demigods, and some Greek revivalists believe that their powers are derived from such divine intervention. Others view it as fate’s will, for even the gods themselves cannot defy fate. All agree, however, that the gods are capricious, and to earn their favor, one must tread carefully.
Some see themselves as oracles, interpreting fate's will, while others call upon the denizens of Elysium and Tartarus to assist them.

Interesting... I like it...

Keep the Faith

[Tyro]

No, it was removed in the fourth printing. The Anniversary is the sixth printing.

My bad, sorry.