Wall Climbing, Why does this cost so much Options

[Omenowl]

I was looking over the adept powers and I noticed wall climbing. I thought it would be cool to have an athletic infiltrator who could great jump, traceless walk, glide, freefall and I thought about wall climbing. Wall climbing just doesn't seem to garner enough height to justify its cost. Am I missing something or is this fluff which does not seem worth it?

[Abstruse]

Game-breaker at a low cost. Windows are typically less guarded than doors, especially when they're a couple stories up (I never lock my balcony door and I'm only on the second floor).

[Omenowl]

I hope you are kidding. The average height run is 3-4 meters which means you might get to a balcony. I feel it should be strength+running+ magic rather than just strength and running.

[Drace]

Where the hell do you live if the balconies are 3-4 meters high?? Plus, that is ONTOP of any other jump tests your character makes, footholds they get ahold of and the like.

[Summerstorm]

Also it just states that you can "do it again" with a small pause. That means that as long as you can hold on to anything, you can keep climbing. You just need a window, some drone-rails, anything to latch on... and start wallwalking again... at running speed. Which means you can pretty much climb anything which isn't completely smooth at like 8/10 your speed or something. (You might want to take it slow though).

It is not a realy "powerful" power, but for some infiltration/freerunning adept it is REALLY nice. And yeah... it doesn't offer much opportunities and such... but it has to be that expensive... after all it has a huge "physical impact" on the world, and as such is high magic.

[Abstruse]

It is not a realy "powerful" power, but for some infiltration/freerunning adept it is REALLY nice. And yeah... it doesn't offer much opportunities and such... but it has to be that expensive... after all it has a huge "physical impact" on the world, and as such is high magic.

Combine it with some Strength boosting cyber/bio or powers plus Improved Ability (Running) (which is dirt cheap at .25/level). Let's min/max for this ability, a Troll Adept. Str 10 + Running 6 + Improved Ability (Running): 6 + Attribute Boost (Strength): 5 = 27 dice for the run test. That will average 9 hits, with a possible max of 27 (plus Edge).

That means the adept could theoretically run straight up a sheer, smooth wall 27m three seconds. That, in US terms, is over 88 feet. So start in the alley and end up on the roof of a 9 story building in 3 seconds. And I don't see anything on the descriptions that limit you to one run attempt, so you could just keep doing it every single turn (just have to make a second test).

Let's look at something less brokenly designed. Total Str 6 (not unlikely if you're making a melee adept with various boosts) and Running 4. That's up to 10m (33 ft) and an average of 3m (9+ ft or one story) every 3 seconds straight up a wall. Next turn, roll again for the next stage.

Add in other athletics abilities like jumping from wall to wall with Improved Ability or some other power/cyber...yeah, definitely worth the 1 point.

[rumanchu]

Where the hell do you live if the balconies are 3-4 meters high?? Plus, that is ONTOP of any other jump tests your character makes, footholds they get ahold of and the like.

Seriously? The "rule of thumb" that I've always dealt with has been 10 feet (just over 3 meters), though ±1m is not unreasonable, based on my experience (as someone who has to estimate CAT6/fiber runs).

I'll admit that your second point (the height being in addition to a standard jump test -- assuming that they stack (which I am too lazy to check right now, so I will stipulate that you are correct for the sake of argument)) is valid; 4m seems more than reasonable to serve as the height that someone would need to reach to get onto a 2nd-story balcony.

[Abstruse]

I'll admit that your second point (the height being in addition to a standard jump test -- assuming that they stack (which I am too lazy to check right now, so I will stipulate that you are correct for the sake of argument)) is valid; 4m seems more than reasonable to serve as the height that someone would need to reach to get onto a 2nd-story balcony.

Please note that nowhere in the description or in any other rules I found does it mention having to grip, hold, find purchase, or anything else after completing the test. Just like running in a combat turn doesn't mean you run your 25m in 3 seconds, stop, wait for a moment, then start sprinting again next turn; there's nothing to indicate this would be the case with a wall run either. You roll a wall-run, you run 1m per hit up the wall. Want to run further next combat turn? Go for it! New roll, 1m per hit.

And even if it were limited, that 4m listed as your average jump? That's where your FEET are, not your hands. You would be on level (or actually just above) the 2nd floor balcony and within arm's reach of the third floor in one combat round. And where are you getting your 3-4m/floor number anyway? Remember, office buildings typically have drop ceilings while residences do not. My balcony's only about 2.25-2.5m above the ground. I think. I'm 6'3" tall and I can almost get my hand to get a grip on the bottom without jumping or climbing on anything.

Also note that it doesn't have to be vertical. The hallway floor is rigged with pressure plates on the floor with a very tight infrared laser sensor a couple of inches above the ground...but are they rigged on the walls as well? Sweeping cameras on the 5m high wall. Okay then, I'll make the roll with edge dice while it's sweeping the other way for another 10-15 seconds.

And that's just what my vodka-soaked brain can come up with at 3 am. I'm sure if I had time to think, I could come up with other uses as well. It's not nearly as underpowered or overpriced as you seem to think it is.

[Traul]

Please note that nowhere in the description or in any other rules I found does it mention having to grip, hold, find purchase, or anything else after completing the test.

Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings and additional uses of Wall Running.

You can do something nice with Great Leap: Wall run, jump to the other side of the street, rinse & repeat.

[assante]

Combine it with some Strength boosting cyber/bio or powers plus Improved Ability (Running) (which is dirt cheap at .25/level). Let's min/max for this ability, a Troll Adept. Str 10 + Running 6 + Improved Ability (Running): 6 + Attribute Boost (Strength): 5 = 27 dice for the run test. That will average 9 hits, with a possible max of 27 (plus Edge).

That means the adept could theoretically run straight up a sheer, smooth wall 27m three seconds. That, in US terms, is over 88 feet. So start in the alley and end up on the roof of a 9 story building in 3 seconds. And I don't see anything on the descriptions that limit you to one run attempt, so you could just keep doing it every single turn (just have to make a second test).

Let's look at something less brokenly designed. Total Str 6 (not unlikely if you're making a melee adept with various boosts) and Running 4. That's up to 10m (33 ft) and an average of 3m (9+ ft or one story) every 3 seconds straight up a wall. Next turn, roll again for the next stage.

Add in other athletics abilities like jumping from wall to wall with Improved Ability or some other power/cyber...yeah, definitely worth the 1 point.

Problem is, real-life parcour/free-running athletes (who I would put at Str5/Running 4 max, with maybe an 'urban' specialization for an extra 2 dice or so) can run up a 4m wall without any special magic abilities, and also combine this with jumps/climbs/extra runs. Just type in "wall running" on youtube. So I also think that a whole power point should buy you a little more than that.

[KarmaInferno]

In game balance terms, ANYTHING that gives you vertical travel modes is potentially very powerful, as it provides a means of bypassing obstacles completely.

Granted, this doesn't explain the relative cheapness of Gecko Grip, but hey...



-karma

[Ramorta]

Combine it with some Strength boosting cyber/bio or powers plus Improved Ability (Running) (which is dirt cheap at .25/level). Let's min/max for this ability, a Troll Adept. Str 10 + Running 6 + Improved Ability (Running): 6 + Attribute Boost (Strength): 5 = 27 dice for the run test. That will average 9 hits, with a possible max of 27 (plus Edge).

That means the adept could theoretically run straight up a sheer, smooth wall 27m three seconds. That, in US terms, is over 88 feet. So start in the alley and end up on the roof of a 9 story building in 3 seconds. And I don't see anything on the descriptions that limit you to one run attempt, so you could just keep doing it every single turn (just have to make a second test).

Let's look at something less brokenly designed. Total Str 6 (not unlikely if you're making a melee adept with various boosts) and Running 4. That's up to 10m (33 ft) and an average of 3m (9+ ft or one story) every 3 seconds straight up a wall. Next turn, roll again for the next stage.

Add in other athletics abilities like jumping from wall to wall with Improved Ability or some other power/cyber...yeah, definitely worth the 1 point.

A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5. So for this example 6 x 1.5 = 9(- 6 = 3). Going to have to drop to 3 ranks of Improved Ability.

[Karoline]

You can do something nice with Great Leap: Wall run, jump to the other side of the street, rinse & repeat.

Exactly, that is the great part.

With a single wall you jump about 2 meters, then run for about 4, then jump another 2. That puts your feet 8 meters up, with about another 2 meters from height and reach. That's enough to get yourself up to at least the 3rd floor, possibly the 4th. And if you have two walls next to each other (like an alleyway) you can just repeat it as long as you have walls, and be able to scale a building in a mater of seconds.

Please note that nowhere in the description or in any other rules I found does it mention having to grip, hold, find purchase, or anything else after completing the test.

Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings

So yeah, you'll need to find some kind of purchase, but that should be easy enough. Windows and ledges would work fine, and even on sheer buildings you could get gecko grips and drop to all fours for a second before continuing up.

So, to answer the OP, this power is actually quite useful, though it does seem slightly overpriced when you consider how cheap the levitate spell is.

[Sephiroth]

Problem is, real-life parcour/free-running athletes (who I would put at Str5/Running 4 max, with maybe an 'urban' specialization for an extra 2 dice or so) can run up a 4m wall without any special magic abilities, and also combine this with jumps/climbs/extra runs. Just type in "wall running" on youtube. So I also think that a whole power point should buy you a little more than that.

Indeed. The way the power is written vs. how possible it is IRL strikes me as being something that should not be exclusive to magical characters, but rather be available to any metahuman (EDIT/Aside: except maybe non-magical trolls, since as size goes up, weight increases faster than muscle strength) with the appropriate stats (like your Str 5 Running 4 example), even mundanes. Rolling Str + Running + Magic for the power seems more appropriate to me, if not exactly balanced.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth: Jun 8 2010, 04:14 PM

[Wandering One]

I believe the skill is called Parkour, and it's amazing to watch. You can youtube the hell out of it.

I imagine this adept ability as an enhanced version of it, almost briefly gravity altering instead of relying on friction.

[Dumori]

I think .5-.75 for it is more reasonable looking at the over 1 point powers bar distance strike that is over priced as well. Also jsuy grab geko gloves to give you that quick pause any athlete/climber of experience can hold their body with one arm for at least a second more than enough to count as a small pause for this power.

As for none magical wallrunign I'd allowing but it needs a run up this doesn't once you out of momentum you fall with this power as long as you can hold your self you can run from stopped again. As for wallruning with out the power I think a threshold test might be needed as well. Representing getting your self up to speed, finding the right angles, footing ect ect. I'm no parkour expert I took it up for a bit but not majorly but I have friends who do it. How I took it up and that seams a good compromise.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Pretty much all the gimmick physical adept ninja powers are overpriced and by a somewhat large margin. Wall running, gliding, traceless walk. Yeah they can be useful, but not as useful as they are expensive. It is not even close. It is almost as bad as the thief acrobat from unearthed arcana 1e D&D. Hey I suck hard at being a thief, but like magically we will pretend there is no security one floor up and like a simple grappling hook and rope wouldn't do the same thing in 90% of the situations.

Sorry wall running should be .25 to .5 pp not 1 PP. Gecko gloves, grapple guns with stealth line, levitate etc. There are a ton of ways to do the same or better and they are all cheaper.

[Abstruse]

I think .5-.75 for it is more reasonable looking at the over 1 point powers bar distance strike that is over priced as well. Also jsuy grab geko gloves to give you that quick pause any athlete/climber of experience can hold their body with one arm for at least a second more than enough to count as a small pause for this power.

I still can't find anywhere in the actual written rules that state that there has to be any pause, just that a new roll is required to run further.

[Traul]

Come on: that line has already been quoted twice in this thread, both by me and Karoline.

Attempts to run up longer distances require stops or landings and additional uses of Wall Running.

[Saint Sithney]

Pretty much all the gimmick physical adept ninja powers are overpriced and by a somewhat large margin. Wall running, gliding, traceless walk. Yeah they can be useful, but not as useful as they are expensive. It is not even close. It is almost as bad as the thief acrobat from unearthed arcana 1e D&D. Hey I suck hard at being a thief, but like magically we will pretend there is no security one floor up and like a simple grappling hook and rope wouldn't do the same thing in 90% of the situations.

Sorry wall running should be .25 to .5 pp not 1 PP. Gecko gloves, grapple guns with stealth line, levitate etc. There are a ton of ways to do the same or better and they are all cheaper.

This.

Besides, what corp building has windows which open?

[Shinobi Killfist]

This.

Besides, what corp building has windows which open?

All the places you want to break into have the same security as a second floor apartment without air conditioning in Sacramento in the middle of summer.(for furin(red neck for foreign) types, Sacramento gets effing hot in summer and yes my window back in my college days was wide open)

[crash2029]

So now I have to decide between Dastan and Altair. Hmmm...

[Shinobi Killfist]

So now I have to decide between Dastan and Altair. Hmmm...

Who and who?

Wait Altair that is assassins creed right, overall craptastic IMO but everyone else seemed to like it.

[crash2029]

Who and who?

Wait Altair that is assassins creed right, overall craptastic IMO but everyone else seemed to like it.

Dastan is the Prince of Persia.

I quite liked Assassins Creed. It reminded me of SR, strangely enough. Ancient conspiracies, evil megacorps, mystical hoodoo, the main character is an adept, using an ultraviolet host to unlock genetic memory, assensing, and a creepy doctor who watches you sleep when he's not experimenting on you. One of these days I'm gonna hafta get Assassins Creed 2.

[Karoline]

I think a cyber spur might be easier to get to simulate the assassin blade then a magical hourglass and dagger (or whatever) that lets you turn back time.