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> Questions about Big D
Stormdrake
post Jun 8 2010, 03:11 AM
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I know Big D sacrificed himself to stop an early arrival of the Horrors brought on by an Aztechnology blood magic ritual.

 I have heard that Big D became a free spirit.
 That he inhabited a cyberzombie.
 Which gained possession of an artifact called the “Dragons Heart?"
 That Big D used the artifact to stop the ritual.
 That he is currently residing on a meta-plane some where between our reality and the plane from which the Horrors come from.
 That he is using the artifact to suck up any mana-spikes that could hurry the arrival of the Horrors.

Am I missing anything?

I want to have all the facts no matter how silly I may find them so that I can work them into an ongoing meta plot.

(Yes, I like shake the world rather than street level games)
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 03:33 AM
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That's pretty much the Cliff's Notes version of it, yeah. If you want the whole story, pick up the Dragonheart Trilogy...they're probably cheap on Amazon if you can't find them in a local used bookstore. And for the record, no one other than the free spirit (and maybe the cyberzombie) knows that the free spirit was Dunkelzahn.
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 04:19 AM
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To expound a bit about the whole situation (history lesson time kiddies! Where's AH so he can factcheck me?)

When Daniel Howling Coyote performed the Great Ghost Dance, it was an act of blood magic. The drain was so great that it was measured in bodies. That level of magic should not have been able to be performed that early int he mana cycle, and thus created a "spike" between this plane and the metaplane where the Horrors reside.

Aside 1: The Horrors are Bad. Yes, capital B Bad. Think Cthulhu, Hastr, etc. The Shedim are like baby horrors. Cute little fluffy cuddly things compared to the real deal. The Powers That Be weren't worried about the insect spirits in '49-'55, they were worried that it mean the Horrors were coming soon. Horrors feed on pain, suffering, and fear. One group of elves decided to cut the Horrors off at the pass and cast a spell on themselves where thorns grew out of their skin continuously causing pain from their flesh rending because it was preferable to dealing with the Horrors.

Aside 2: Visualize a canyon. On one side is a path through the metaplanes to our reality. On the other side are the Horrors, all lined up with knife and fork in hand with little white napkin bibs just waiting to be able to cross the abyss to come over for dindin of torturing all sentient beings on the planet. The greater magic is, the more the cliff on our side grows to get to their side, allowing them to come over. I like the canyon visualization not just because it was used at least twice in canon for it.

Anyway, the Ghost Dance caused a massive mana spike, which caused a part of the cliff on our side to jut out a good way across, almost like a bridge. Aztlan/Aztechnology, being controlled by beings who are controlled by the Horrors (rumors are that one Great Feathered Serpent on the Board of Directors is actually Horror-touched, meaning he's basically corrupted by the Horrors and under their power). Thus all of Aztlan's blood magic...because every bit of blood magic makes the bridge that much longer to their side.

Things game to a head in 2057 when Aztlan planned a MASSIVE sacrifice. Dunkelzahn got wind of this and decided to act. The Dragonheart was an artifact left over from the 4th World capable of absorbing mana, but it had to be activated. In order to do so, a massive charge of mana would be required -- more than could be pulled at this stage of the mana cycle. So Dunkelzahn kills himself in a friggin' massive bit of blood magic solely to charge the Dragonheart. This, of course, makes the bridge that much closer to the Horror side, so things have to proceed quickly.

Ryan Mercury (an adept and part of Dunkelzahn's personal shadowrunning team, Assets, Inc (along with Talon, who is a frequent Shadowland poster back in the 3rd Ed days)) goes through three books worth of crap and dealing with a massive Free Spirit named (I think) Lithe. Think Force OVER 9000!! Free Spirit. Anyway, the spirit has the Possession power, which it uses a couple of times. Then it screws up and tries to use it on a Cyberzombie named Billy.

Aside #3: Cyberzombies were the prototype for what I believe is called Transhumans in 4E I think. Basically, using dangerous and costly ritual (blood) magic, a subject is able to accept cyberware/bioware modifications that push them below 0 Essence. All the rituals are meant to keep the "soul" of the person inside the body long after it wants to leave due to Essence loss. Lots of very strong enchantments meant specifically to hold in a spirit...seeing a problem? Yeah...

So now Lithe is stuck in the body of Billy the Cyberzombie and can't get out. blah blah road trip to Me-he-co! and the Aztlan Blood Priests are in the middle of a massive blood sacrifice. Massive. Thousands dead, the Aztechnology Pyramid in Tenochtitlan was downing in blood. And every soul sacrificed was a brick in paving that bridge to bring the Horrors over early.

Enter Assets Inc, which bring Billy and the Dragonheart to the pyramid. Because of the huge amounts of mojo being thrown around, Ryan Mercury goes through a bit of a transformation...into a 3m long mini-me version of a Western dragon. Yes, a drake manifesting a good three years before the comet and SURGE. That's how much magical power was going on.

They go to the metaplanes where the cliff is and that's when Billy/Lithe realizes that they can use the now fully-powered Dragonheart to suck up all the mana from the spikes jutting out. Lots of other stuff is going on, but I haven't read the books in about 8 years so I forgot most of it. Anyway, they manage to suck up the mana from all of the spikes and thus restore order to the mana cycle by preventing the Horrors from coming before the world was prepared for them. Assets Inc. goes away, but Billy/Lithe stays behind in eternal vigilance making sure no future mana spikes happen that can bring the Horrors over early.

Closing of the trilogy, Ryan and Nadia hook up, Aine stops being so much of a bitch, everything works out great.

Then we get an epilogue. Billy/Lithe all alone. Standing on the cliff. Every blood mage who makes a sacrifice, they balance out the spike. Every weirdo cult that ritually murders a bunch of kids, every large ritual casting, everything that causes that cliff to get closer than it should to the other side; they use the Dragonheart to balance it out. And while there, performing this duty all by themselves, they think back and remember. Lithe remembers his name.

Dunkelzahn.

Yeah, that was literally the last work of the last novel. They're really pretty well-written for licensed fiction and you should check them out. In fact, compared to most RPG-licensed crap novels, the old Shadowrun novels really do hold up well. Hope that gives you enough fodder for your ideas. For further reading, check out At the World' End or something like that, Harlequin's Back, the annotated version of Dunkelzahn's Will available on Ancient History's website, and...well, frankly, everything on AH's site. Oh, and the Earthdawn books.
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Dahrken
post Jun 8 2010, 05:05 AM
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IIRC the name was Lethe, given by another powerful spirit to the "new" free spirit who had no memories of who or what he could have been before.

Quoting Wikipedia :
QUOTE
In Greek mythology, Lethe was one of the five rivers of Hades. Also known as the Ameles potamos (river of unmindfulness), the Lethe flowed around the cave of Hypnos and through the Underworld, where all those who drank from it experienced complete forgetfulness. Lethe was also the name of the Greek spirit of forgetfulness and oblivion, with whom the river was often identified.
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Emeraldknite
post Jun 8 2010, 05:14 AM
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Aside 2 is exactly how Harlequin Describes it in the adventure Harlequin's Back. I thought that was a good analogy. And since I read Earthdawn Novels I knew exactly how bad the Horrors are.

But thanks for that synopsis. That will actually help a lot in the meta-plot arc that is running through my campaign. What is the name of the novels? I can't seem to find any Dragon trilogy on amazon. Well I did but those are very much not SR.
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Dahrken
post Jun 8 2010, 05:33 AM
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The books are :
Stranger Souls - Jak Koke - ISBN 0-451-45610-6 and 0-451-45629-7

Clockwork Asylum - Jak Koke - ISBN 0-451-45620-3 and 0-451-45631-9

Beyond the Pale - Jak Koke - ISBN 0-451-45674-2 and 0-451-45710-2
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 06:16 AM
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QUOTE (Emeraldknite @ Jun 7 2010, 11:14 PM) *
Aside 2 is exactly how Harlequin Describes it in the adventure Harlequin's Back. I thought that was a good analogy. And since I read Earthdawn Novels I knew exactly how bad the Horrors are.

But thanks for that synopsis. That will actually help a lot in the meta-plot arc that is running through my campaign. What is the name of the novels? I can't seem to find any Dragon trilogy on amazon. Well I did but those are very much not SR.

I'm a big Harlequin fan...always was a sucker for the Chaos-personified Loki/Coyote/Fox/etc. types. But I also think this metaphor was used in the novels as well.

And like I said, most of the Shadowrun novels are actually pretty well-written. I'm not a fan of the first trilogy as much or the short story anthology (way more miss than hit), but 2XS is definitely one of my favorite books and is essential reading for anyone planning a...well, I don't want to spoil it if you haven't read it, but I will say that Nigel Findley was an amazing author and I often wonder what Shadowrun would be like if he hadn't passed too young. He had a real passion for the world and it showed in everything he wrote, from the sourcebooks to the novels.
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Sephiroth
post Jun 8 2010, 01:19 PM
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Some time ago, there was a topic similar to this one, and someone in it claimed that BillyLetheDunkelzahn was killed in the Crash 2.0. Is that correct? Because I've never seen anything in the SR novels to suggest such a thing.
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Stormdrake
post Jun 8 2010, 02:07 PM
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Have read most of the fiction and Emergence and I don't remember anything about that. If one of the writers did slip it in then the Horrors could reasonably be on the way back before expected.

That actually gives me an idea though...

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Creel
post Jun 8 2010, 02:51 PM
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Not only was mercury the first Drake to Manifest, He was a high level initiated phys-ad groomed personally by Big D, and taken on his first metaplanar quest by Harlequinn himself.

I always really liked the Dragonheart saga. Assets, Inc. is a really good example of a team of runners as "household troops". Not all runners have to be wandering mercs, sometimes they work for an extremely well-funded philanthropist with his own agenda that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with corporate espionage/in-fighting.
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Prime Mover
post Jun 8 2010, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE
Aside #3: Cyberzombies were the prototype for what I believe is called Transhumans in 4E I think. Basically, using dangerous and costly ritual (blood) magic, a subject is able to accept cyberware/bioware modifications that push them below 0 Essence. All the rituals are meant to keep the "soul" of the person inside the body long after it wants to leave due to Essence loss. Lots of very strong enchantments meant specifically to hold in a spirit...seeing a problem? Yeah...


Great info, just one thing.

Cyberzombies are still cyberzombies as in previous editions (Rule's in Augmentation for 4th edition version.)
Transhumanism is an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of science and technology to improve human mental and physical characteristics and capacities. (Shadowrun was transhuman before it was well defined.)
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Stahlseele
post Jun 8 2010, 04:14 PM
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I liked the short little story with the dark warrior at the end of one of the novels.
The Story of Thayla i think. Another free Megaspirit instituted by Har Lea Quinn to hold back the Horrors with the Beauty of her Song.
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Dread Moores
post Jun 8 2010, 04:23 PM
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You forgot the most important part of the Dragonheart trilogy. Rogue brown nipples came into canon status. Those things just come out of nowhere. Apparently, they're part ninja.
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Sephiroth
post Jun 8 2010, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Matsci @ Apr 22 2010, 06:50 AM) *
The writes decided that was stupid and killed that entire plotline dead.

[ Spoiler ]

Found it.

No source given, though. Does anyone know what he's talking about?
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jun 8 2010, 10:25 AM) *
Great info, just one thing.

Cyberzombies are still cyberzombies as in previous editions (Rule's in Augmentation for 4th edition version.)
Transhumanism is an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of science and technology to improve human mental and physical characteristics and capacities. (Shadowrun was transhuman before it was well defined.)

I know what transhumanism is, I just thought from what I was reading in some of the 4e books that they were renamed. I know my history, it's the present I'm working on now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And yeah, Billy/Lethe supposedly died in the Crash (don't know how since they were on the metaplanes, but whatever), but this hasn't been in any book. I'm thinking it was Adam or Rob flat-out smacking down the idea of bringing them back a few years back.
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Caadium
post Jun 8 2010, 05:41 PM
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One thing I'd like to know, and if I missed it I apologize:

What has happened with the rift in DC since all of this has happened and as we moved into the current timeline?
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Prime Mover
post Jun 8 2010, 05:44 PM
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Rift still there IIRC, building around it now.
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jun 8 2010, 12:44 PM) *
Rift still there IIRC, building around it now.

Tourism bucks.
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Stormdrake
post Jun 8 2010, 06:47 PM
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Billy/Lethe being killed may have been mentioned but never found it's way into any of the books.

It sounds like another attempt to remove already established metaplot from the game in their charge to turn Shadowrun into a street level only game.

My opinion only folks but I think it was one of the biggest mistakes yet made in the handling of the Shadowrun world. Focusing on the street level game I mean.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 8 2010, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Jun 8 2010, 06:23 PM) *
You forgot the most important part of the Dragonheart trilogy. Rogue brown nipples came into canon status. Those things just come out of nowhere. Apparently, they're part ninja.

Please, do it right:
Lusty Brown Elven Nipples.
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sabs
post Jun 8 2010, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Jun 8 2010, 06:47 PM) *
Billy/Lethe being killed may have been mentioned but never found it's way into any of the books.

It sounds like another attempt to remove already established metaplot from the game in their charge to turn Shadowrun into a street level only game.

My opinion only folks but I think it was one of the biggest mistakes yet made in the handling of the Shadowrun world. Focusing on the street level game I mean.


Focusing on the high end corporate side of the game though would be, difficult, at best.
Think about how good Shadowrunners would have to be to get away with the stuff they get away with in Shadow Run.

RFID Tags
DNA scanning
SecureID Tokens chipped into registered commlinks.

Human+Agent+Drone security

That's just getting in.

Once you've been in, and gotten out.
everything you see in shows like CSI and NCIS, plus Magical Tracking, Magical Assensing.
Psychomancy. Someone develops a spell that takes the residual magical and emotional overlays in an area and builds a reconstruct. The Lab technician finds a drop of your blood, because you got short during the mission. They use a tracking spell to find you. A 10 man security team comes after you.

Said 10 man team:
1 Combat Mage
1 Detection/Assensing Mage
5 street sams(or adepts)
an overwatch drone/sniper guy
2 Combat Medics
1 Rigger that's just their transportation

To back it up, there's a team of Hackers back home providing tacnet support and hacking support. They're hacking your back accounts, your commlink. They've taken over your apartment complex.

And heaven forbid it's not a Corporate Team coming after you. But instead it's the Local PD Inc. They have a /warrant/ and they don't even need to hack your apartment building, they just ask for an admin account and get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

High stakes Shadow Running is dangerous and not for the unprofessional.


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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2010, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Jun 8 2010, 12:47 PM) *
Billy/Lethe being killed may have been mentioned but never found it's way into any of the books.

It sounds like another attempt to remove already established metaplot from the game in their charge to turn Shadowrun into a street level only game.

My opinion only folks but I think it was one of the biggest mistakes yet made in the handling of the Shadowrun world. Focusing on the street level game I mean.

It won't be handled in canon ever for two reasons. 1) No one but Billy/Lethe, Nadia, and Assets Inc. knows what went on with the metaplanes, and no one knows about Lethe = Dunkelzahn except for Billy/Lethe. 2) The Horrors are the Big Bad in Earthdawn, whose license is now with another company. Therefore, there's no way in hell, unless the two licenses end up with the same company, they're going to go back to the Horrors in canon.

As far as the street-level thing...I think it was smart when relaunching 4e and when everything published for a good 2 years were "core" books (Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal, and Unwired) and world-based sourcebooks aimed mostly at new users with some timeline updates.

However, at this point, they really should be focusing more on the plot. I know for damn sure that's what drew me to Shadowrun, and considering the amount of speculation going on these boards over the years, it's not just me. I'm betting if you looked at the Shadowrun section of Dumpshock over the past whatever years, it's going to be a quarter rules discussions, a quarter "Hey check out my character", a quarter just random stuff, and a quarter on solely discussing the metaplot. And metaplot threads tend to be much more likely to be longer with more detailed discussions than anything else.

Right now, Shadowrun feels to me more like the Shadowrun INO FPS game that came out. Sure, there's trolls and elves and magic and stuff...but it doesn't feel like the cyberpunk/fantasy blend it used to. It feels like generic post-cyberpunk with just a few bits of fantasy thrown in. No insect spirits, no horrors, no big Great Dragon/IE plots (like I said, Tir Tairngire's whole massive almost 20 year long storyline got "resolved" by a single line in the BBB timeline and two comments in a sidebar of a book on a completely different location), no SURGE/Shidem/etc.

I personally like the idea of a bunch of glorified thugs from the street managing to affect the world...not necessarily as much as say Harlequin's Back directly saving the world...but the idea of these little street-level runners being a very teeny part of something huge and massive where their actions mean something. That's how I feel anyway.
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Stormdrake
post Jun 8 2010, 07:41 PM
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The thing is that the previous three editions of the game where written so you could play street, med level or high end and have serious meta-plots going on that affected the world. Often the metaplots where written starting at the street level and ramping up. 4th ed focuses only on the street level and made it almost impossible to do the others without the use of house rules. Focusing on what one section of players wants to the exclusion of the others is just bad buisness in my opinion.

However I have managed to house rule the parts that my players and I find annoying and ignored the removel of most meta-plot so I will stop complaining.


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Stormdrake
post Jun 8 2010, 08:00 PM
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Yes the Horrors are/were the big bad in Earth Dawn but they were also used in Shadowrun which should allow them to be referenced and used based off of previous use. Their removel seems more of a development choice by following writers who did not like the idea of super powerful monsters waiting to devour the world.

Focusing the game on the street level seems rather limiting and while I am sure there are lots of players who like playing that style I have met more who like to start out at that level and grow to become powers in their own right. As a player of mine said "I do not play RPG's to be mediocre but to be the hero who changes the world." I know some people will then say "go play something else because Shadowrun is not that type of game." Well it used to be before 4th ed.

Just my thoughts
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Prime Mover
post Jun 8 2010, 08:06 PM
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Well the names always seemed to get filed off when referenced in SR anyways. They weren't horror's they were the "enemy". No reason the Enemy can't still crop up.
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