Controlling Mind Control, ...the easy way is always Mind. Options

[MikeKozar]

So, the mage in my group has shut down a number of Big Bads by using Control Thoughts ... and recently started to take packs of minions out of the fight via Mob Mind as well. The high drain on it seems to keep him from using it more then once or twice a run, but the fact that it's on the board at all makes it difficult to have interesting opposition. From a storytelling standpoint, it is brutal - unless I purposefully tweak the important characters to be invulnerable to mind control, which is kind of a dick move to the player counting on it, this guy gets one 'free' KO per game. Inevitably, he waits until the most dramatic point in the fight, and then quietly explains..."I cast Control Thoughts. (rolls) Five to resist with Willpower. (Fail) Okay, he's Mind Controlled."

It's generally an anticlimax. I'd like to find a way to make it more interesting - how do you guys deal with Control Thoughts/Mob Mind?

[Wandering One]

Loverly counterspelling spirits are a nice, easy way to beef up the anti-magic for your squads of bumbling bad-dudes, and the mage in question could simply have been hired to provide said backup, not even on scene, so it can't be re-commanded. It's one of the ways I keep the # of significant mages down but allow for magical threats to exist.

Street Magic: 1 pt of karma for a 1 year and 1 day remote service. Who says it can't be 'guard BBEG from all magical attacks'? they respawn in 28 days if they need to reset. A nice hefty fee from some middlin' dude who can't afford a full time mage but needs magical protection makes sense.

Another option is split your big bads up. All of you charge... except billy and bobby. You two hang back in those windows... and if everyone does something wonky, shoot the guy waving his hands. Here's your sniper rifles.

Darkness, can't see me, can't mind control me. Really bright lights (spotlights) backdropping the enemy are equivalently nasty.

The populace is NOT stupid. They WILL geek the mage, if given any chance.

[Saint Sithney]

BBEG Burns Edge for auto-sucess on the resist, fucks up LoS to prevent mage from trying that again.

There's always the AI running stirrup to throw your mind mage off as well.

[Tanegar]

If your gang's mage is developing a reputation for unstoppable mind-control magic, it's reasonable (IMO) for the gang to start running into opposition that takes its magical defenses a little more seriously. Wandering One's suggestions are all good. If the Big Bad is sufficiently solvent, and knows who's after him (and remember, money loosens many tongues) it's entirely in-character for him to hire a mage specifically to counter attempted brainjacking.

[Udoshi]

Agreed. Any spirit with Magical Guard is an excellent way to give any regular band of mooks some staying power against a mage - and you can bet the corps have them.

All it takes is one spirit in the support role - ie, hanging back, staying out of trouble, not getting involved too heavily - to assense mages, counterspell stuff, and point out spells to the meatside team.

Sustained spells can also be counterspelled.

Line of sight. If the mage can't see his target, he can't cast on them. So give your parties enemies some cover.


There's also the social/moral impact of controlling people's minds. People don't like it. If your player gets a reputation for being a mindfucker, he should have to deal with that reputation. Perhaps some warning shots - in the form of Notoriety - are in order.

[Blade]

Don't forget about Background Count.

What I like to do with mages who use (and abuse) Mind Control spell is to remind them how nice it is to be able to have whoever you want do whatever you do. And to tell them how boring it is to wait in the line when they could just Mind Control people to skip it. To tell them how it would be easy to pick up that nova-hot chica with mind control...

Then you have him roll willpower+charisma (3) to resist abusing Mind Control.

This could lead to the police looking for him, to him becoming toxic...
With great powers come great responsabilities.

[Wandering One]

Don't forget about Background Count.

What I like to do with mages who use (and abuse) Mind Control spell is to remind them how nice it is to be able to have whoever you want do whatever you do. And to tell them how boring it is to wait in the line when they could just Mind Control people to skip it. To tell them how it would be easy to pick up that nova-hot chica with mind control...

Then you have him roll willpower+charisma (3) to resist abusing Mind Control.

This could lead to the police looking for him, to him becoming toxic...
With great powers come great responsabilities.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA, I *really* like this.

As to background count, that should be a novelty, not a constant. Yeah, okay, running battle in a church with a prominant pastor that packs the halls, sure. Recent bloodsport fight, sure, if we're talking about in the ring where the emotion was concentrated at. Your average nightclub/factory/corp grounds/gang clubhouse? No.

[Udoshi]

Hah! Excellent, Blade.

Also easy to work into to a mage who has a Mentor Spirit - who often have Wp+Cha(3) tests to avoid working in a certain way. After all, acting in accordance with your mentor spirit's wishes is a lot easier... with mind control.

[Drats]

What I like to do with mages who use (and abuse) Mind Control spell is to remind them how nice it is to be able to have whoever you want do whatever you do. And to tell them how boring it is to wait in the line when they could just Mind Control people to skip it. To tell them how it would be easy to pick up that nova-hot chica with mind control...

Then you have him roll willpower+charisma (3) to resist abusing Mind Control.

Doesn't this completely disregard the possibility to detect spellcasting, both from the act itself and from the results? Why not do this with your infiltrator characters, reminding them how nice it is not to have to deal with assholes and then making them roll wil+cha to resist drugging people or taking discreet shots at them with a silenced pistol?

[Yerameyahu]

Heh: Mind Control *addiction*.

[Saint Sithney]

Doesn't this completely disregard the possibility to detect spellcasting, both from the act itself and from the results? Why not do this with your infiltrator characters, reminding them how nice it is not to have to deal with assholes and then making them roll wil+cha to resist drugging people or taking discreet shots at them with a silenced pistol?

Because the act of using magic is literally the warping of reality using only one's mind, while sneaking into a building is literally walking very quietly?

I've got a Manipulation specialist with the Adversary as his Mentor Spirit in my group. I describe everything to him as though he believes that the world belongs to him. I.E. "You are walking down your alley and you see two of your people standing by your motorcycle. You walk across your street to your cafe and ask your Barista to give you your cappuccino. Your police officers seem agitated momentarily."

[DireRadiant]

Consequences.

Why do you think objective number one is "Geek the Mage"?

Mind control is a super powerful nasty nasty spell.

What happens when someone pulls out an automatic rifle in a bank lobby? Consequences happen.

That rifle or spell is no less powerful in that situation, but the consequences are clear and severe. There's a reason for SWAT teams, and some of the Special Weapons might be magical responses to Mind Control.

The counters to magic are many and varied, they won't happen most of the time, but when they do, they are extreme.

[Xahn Borealis]

"You are walking down your alley and you see two of your people standing by your motorcycle. You walk across your street to your cafe and ask your Barista to give you your cappuccino. Your police officers seem agitated momentarily."

You mean you don't see my world like that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Drats]

Because the act of using magic is literally the warping of reality using only one's mind, while sneaking into a building is literally walking very quietly?

I've got a Manipulation specialist with the Adversary as his Mentor Spirit in my group. I describe everything to him as though he believes that the world belongs to him. I.E. "You are walking down your alley and you see two of your people standing by your motorcycle. You walk across your street to your cafe and ask your Barista to give you your cappuccino. Your police officers seem agitated momentarily."

Heh... for the disciple of Adversary, it might make sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I realize there's a difference between rending the cosmic forces of the universe with a thought and moving your index finger a millimeter or two, I'm just a fan of hyperbole and overstatement. The thing is, I've seen too much dickery from exasperated GMs trying to get a handle on magic, and in almost every situation those GMs have been disregarding many of the societal factors and even core game rules that would keep their spellslingers in line. As such, I tend towards crying foul when I see something like addiction tests imposed on spells.

There can be a profound sense of control that comes with being able to decide another's life. We've seen it in real life, in those twisted individuals who kill because they like having the power over life and death. But there are people out there- soldiers, gangers, even battlezone civilians- who pick up weapons (and perhaps even use them) every day and the overwhelming majority of them don't end up as sociopaths. I don't see that the kind of control magic offers would be much different, and if adjudicated properly, there are plenty of ways to keep it from being a gamebreaker without interfering with a player's control of what's going on in their character's head.

(With apologies, Blade-- I'm not saying your solution is necessarily dickery, and if it works at your table, it works at your table).

[Traul]

Ever tried the offensive Lone Star iBall?

If the Mage does not have Cyber eyes, he gets a -4 visual penalty from the Flash-Pak and at least -2 from the smoke. Total is -6, which means he is blinded. No more ranged casting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[MikeKozar]

Heh... for the disciple of Adversary, it might make sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I realize there's a difference between rending the cosmic forces of the universe with a thought and moving your index finger a millimeter or two, I'm just a fan of hyperbole and overstatement. The thing is, I've seen too much dickery from exasperated GMs trying to get a handle on magic, and in almost every situation those GMs have been disregarding many of the societal factors and even core game rules that would keep their spellslingers in line. As such, I tend towards crying foul when I see something like addiction tests imposed on spells.

There can be a profound sense of control that comes with being able to decide another's life. We've seen it in real life, in those twisted individuals who kill because they like having the power over life and death. But there are people out there- soldiers, gangers, even battlezone civilians- who pick up weapons (and perhaps even use them) every day and the overwhelming majority of them don't end up as sociopaths. I don't see that the kind of control magic offers would be much different, and if adjudicated properly, there are plenty of ways to keep it from being a gamebreaker without interfering with a player's control of what's going on in their character's head.

(With apologies, Blade-- I'm not saying your solution is necessarily dickery, and if it works at your table, it works at your table).

OP here. I'd like to pick your brain a minute, Drats - it sounds like you have first-hand experience of the problem I'm having, albeit from the other side of the table. Punishing players for using Control Thoughts as written seems unfair, I'll allow that. However, what stops the player from simply Jedi Mind Tricking his way around every face-to-face confrontation? Furthermore, and to my mind most importantly, how long will that game be fun?

If I can't find a way to make Control Thoughts work, I'm going to have to get rid of it - that's the bottom line. The GM can turn your precious RAW against you so fast you'll think the latest errata removed the restrictions on teleportation. I don't want to have to do that, though, which is the whole point of this thread. If mindbenders are unbalanced, they need to be put in check; if you assert that they are balanced, I'd love to know how. It's entirely possible that I have missed the implications of something in the rules.

tldr; "there are plenty of ways to keep it from being a gamebreaker" ...like what? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Railgun]

My GM makes our mage resist the drain from these particular spells on every turn it is sustained, as it is far more draining to sustain a spell with two minds playing tug of war.

[tagz]

I'd say one of the biggest things you can do is make good use of the Noticing Magic rules. Then set up meetings in public places. Mental manipulation spells are highly illegal, and people would notice.

Groups of baddies can have members that aren't immediately noticeable, like around corners, and tacnets/cameras are fairly easy to get. Not a bad idea, you hide your true numbers and the hidden ones can still see everything the others can. They'd know right off the mage cast something and could focus fire on him. Did the grunts think to make a visual record of the fight and forward it to the BB? If he knows the spell is in the arsenal then it changes his appropriate response a great deal as well.

Do this a little bit and it should make him a little more cautious about it's use.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

One question that I've always wondered about and never been able to find a good answer is this: what happens when two people cast control on the same person? If the entire team of baddies is already under a control spell to begin with, what happens then?

[tagz]

Interesting question.

I'd say that the mage with the higher number of net hits would win and could control. If they tied then they would be equal in thought creation, so the targets would obey the most recent order.

Alternatively, it could be handled as they both have the ability to rewrite thoughts the same regardless of hits.

Just my opinion.

[Space Ghost]

Oh, and don't forget that issuing commands costs a simple action, and IIRC the victims are aware of the mental manipulation. Thus, if you attempt to dominate 10 gangers (using a complex action), they may ALL get a single chance to kill you before you can mentally boss them around on your next turn. Of course, this is why mages stay invisible a lot of the time. Regardless of what the gangers decide to do with their last action, it will no doubt be an eventful turn. If there is a mage present, he will no doubt attempt to dispel it.

Also, consider that if the mage decided to use stunball instead of control thoughts, how much damage could they do in two initiative passes? Chances are very good that the mage could knock a group of mooks unconscious, and maybe incur less drain than with control thoughts. All in all, control thoughts is a powerful spell, but I think it feels worse than it really is because it takes power away from the GM. True, it's more reliable than a combat spell because it only needs one net success to win the crowd. But on the other hand it's a delayed-action effect and uses up your next turn, which limits it's combat effectiveness (at least a little bit).

And as for social implications, I think it's too overt to be seriously abused. Using control thoughts to pick up chicks doesn't really work. They're aware of the mental control, and they get a cumulative Will roll every (Force) rounds to shake it off, not to mention that people can notice you casting it if you roll it at the necessary force. It's not the type of spell you can get away with using all the time. It's much akin to coercing someone at gun point. It will work, but there will be consequences.

No, the Influence spell is the real nasty one for social stuff.

[Drats]

OP here. I'd like to pick your brain a minute, Drats - it sounds like you have first-hand experience of the problem I'm having, albeit from the other side of the table. Punishing players for using Control Thoughts as written seems unfair, I'll allow that. However, what stops the player from simply Jedi Mind Tricking his way around every face-to-face confrontation? Furthermore, and to my mind most importantly, how long will that game be fun?

If I can't find a way to make Control Thoughts work, I'm going to have to get rid of it - that's the bottom line. The GM can turn your precious RAW against you so fast you'll think the latest errata removed the restrictions on teleportation. I don't want to have to do that, though, which is the whole point of this thread. If mindbenders are unbalanced, they need to be put in check; if you assert that they are balanced, I'd love to know how. It's entirely possible that I have missed the implications of something in the rules.

tldr; "there are plenty of ways to keep it from being a gamebreaker" ...like what? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I can't claim to be any sort of expert... I've got plenty of peripheral experience with the problem, but I've only been playing Shadowrun myself for a little over a year and a half now. My response was mainly to Blade and to Sithney, as gamemasters dictating what's going on inside of player characters' heads has always been one of my "buttons." Your original post is as much a problem for me as it is for you and for every other Shadowrun GM whose player chooses to spam Control Thoughts. I still maintain that it's not a gamebreaker, but it can sure as hell be a combat breaker (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

That said, there are a few factors that might help mitigate the trouble as regards Combat, specifically:

First things first, impose every negative dice pool modifier that could possibly apply without making it look like you've got it out for your mage. Early on, I actually starting being more conscientious about imposing dice pool modifiers on ranged combat specifically so my casters wouldn't feel singled out when I did it to them. You're probably already doing this anyway, but this is one of the biggest contributors to the overpowering of magic in any situation, so it bears mentioning.

Mages may be rare (on paper, anyway), but in my mind that makes it even more likely that they'd make their services commercially available. In my games, it's a pretty simple matter for someone to buy themselves a ward, a spirit service, or even a long-term binding (single year-and-a-day service) if they've got access to the right ear and the right coin. Many of my baddies above street level have some kind of magical protection arrangement.

There is, as has been mentioned, the fact that your mage is going to gain a reputation as a mindrapist if he's not careful, and I'd imagine that in the sixth world that's something on the order of being known as an actual rapist. On the issue of reputation, even if you choose not to impose a stigma, there's the fact that he'd probably be known as both a mage and as someone overly fond of mental manipulations, which would generally paint a huge target on him. If the enemy knew who they were dealing with, they'd be free in-game to take measures to protect themselves that your players could otherwise rightfully consider as the GM going to great lengths to bone their strategy. Actually, if the BBEG had done their homework on your PCs, the simplest solution would be to just have them hire their own shadow mage to run interference.

There's the old GM truism that applies to every RPG: if your arc is hinging on one glorious battle, try and make sure the players aren't going into it with resources intact. Mob Mind especially is not a low-drain spell. If your mage is roughed up before things even get started, he may hesitate to cast it.

There's the fact that magic is well-established by 2072. If you don't happen to be running one of those games where the BBEG has a mage or two on his org chart just so that the GM can keep the party wizkid from running the show, you can probably at least presume that a lot of people above thug level realize their magical vulnerability and might have some procedures in place for dealing with it. Keeping an eye out for spellcasting at tense meetings, not keeping tight groupings, moving to limit LOS. Watchgoons with sniper rifles has been mentioned, even if it does seem slightly paranoid, and having a reserve of chumps hidden to intervene if things take an unexpected turn is just good strategy whether you're facing Awakened or not.

You're also free to extrapolate that if your player is going to make mind control such a serious security problem in your world, certain precautionary measures would be widespread, from Smart Safeties to keep him from making your goons shoot each other or themselves all the way on up to systems that incapacitate any goonsquad members who don't regularly respond with the right codeword to a "free will confirmation transmission" at regular intervals. Granted, that last one is probably only for the most sensitive situations, but whatever else you can think of is probably fair game. Where there is a security risk, people do whatever is within their power to protect themselves from it.

I'm feverish at the moment, and a lot of the solutions to a problem like this are situation-specific, so I'm afraid that's all I've got off the top of my head. Mind you, this is all only for combat-- in social situations, the factors weighing against the overuse of mind control spells are many. In combats where you're not killing all the enemy's key players or where there's a good possibility of investigation, some of those factors may apply, as well.

Edit: Space Ghost FTW. Succinctly put.

[Saint Sithney]

I like mind control spells; I really do. The manipulation mage in my group is really fun and crazy as hell. I just like to think of the narration or composure checks as giving direction and seeing how the player works from it. For instance, he generally uses manipulations to make friends because I've explained to him that, in order to control someone's thoughts, you have to form a thought or decision in your own head and then push it into someone else's mind. So, rather than walking around and making people kill themselves or their friends, since forming the decision to shoot yourself in the head is emotionally taxing, he just makes guys decide to think happy friendly thoughts about helping the nice smiling man in the beat-up sharkskin suit and the glasses with crosshairs painted on in Devilrat blood.

So, perhaps if you help a player identify with just how grizzly it is to envelop a person or people's mind and then fill it full of violent, despairing, self destructive thoughts, they'll see what kind of monsters they are being, and they'll better understand it when the consequences for such behavior come back around. Sure, some characters and players are going to see any conflict as a war where the ultimate goal is to most effectively remove your opponent's ability to make war, but that role is generally relegated to the Street Samurai with the .01 essence and a hardon for steel. And, sure, getting the BBEG to surrender is nearly the same as killing him, but with magic, killing an unprotected guy is simple enough anyway. That's been said plenty already. Hell, use Turn to Goo and you can even nick his cyberware before you light him on fire. There's lots of one spell showstoppers out there. I guess it's just the versatility of the thought control spells which make them such a hot topic.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

I am running a mind mage in my current game. The following points were brought up to me.

1) The target is aware he was controlled.
2) People can sense the casting of the spell, and will notice aberrant behaviour immediately following.
3) Ranged spells have an area based upon the caster magic rating. If the BBEGs are spread out you won't get them all.
4) You must have LOS to target someone (including multiples). If one target is in the area, but the caster cannot see him, Mob Mind won't work.
5) Target will remember that he was controlled after effects wear off.
6) Target gets to roll to resist every (Force) rounds. If the force is low, a well spent edge will cancel the spell in a few seconds.

Aside from these issues, there are all of the items listed above, and issues that affect all magic. It seems that the OP is not having a problem with one spell, he is having a problem with mages. If this guy was hit and KO'd by one player action, it really doesn't matter what that action is. If it was a sniper shot from a mile away, it would be just as broken. As stated previously, make sure that you use the game mechanics properly, and if the character is a prime runner, he will have edge to burn. He would do so to avoid dying from the Sniper shot, he would also do it to avoid having his brain raped.

[DBSubashi]

Any decent corp WILL have magic defense. Otherwise an invisible mage could just walk into their research labs, wait till everyone goes home and then steal all their stuff. Even a Stuffer Shack (each store probably brings in about a million a year) would have a watcher spirit, and possibly a magical barrier. Any B-sized corps wpuld have at least a single mage on hand at all times, with spirits and barriers up, and ready to both counterspell AND counter-attack. In 2072 magical security will be very very common. I imagine that noone could get business insurance without it. "So Mrs. Jones, before we finalize your insurance plan for your new IT start up, which firm is supplying magical security? Blue Bulldog Security? Excellent. What plan do you have with them? Indigo? Very good, that should reduce your monthly premium quite a bit!"

Even street gangs will have a shaman or 2. So will ghouls. Magic and magicians are everywhere in 2072. They will be like computer specialists today. If anything is worth protecting, there will be a mage (or more!) protecting it.

And what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Just after your mage mind controls your goons, imagine his surprise when the Troll he is hiding behind turns around with a big sloppy smile on his face, and empties his Panther Assault cannon into the mage's small, inadequately armored body. Mind control works for both sides.