Handedness and cyberarms, Should they make you effectively ambidexterous? Options

[WarpedAzz]

So my questions is does a character with aleft arm cyberarm who is naturally right handed suffer the -2 penalty for using their off hand?
Now I know it does't say you dont but if you thing about the game mechanics of the cyberarm it makes me think that maybe it should.
I human character can have a normal AGI of 3 and a customerised cyberarm, without a cyber torso, of AGI 9. The rules state that when using that arm predominately for an action you use its AGI. So I shoot and use 9 AGI. My natural AGI isnt counted in the equation. No hand eye coordiation problems using the higher AGI. So why would it be a problem then if my normal nondominant hand is the one replaced? So if the cyberarm Attributes overide the fine motor skills of the character whould they cancel handedness(as handedness is basically defined by their unequal distribution of fine motor skill between the left and right hands)?

[Caadium]

So my questions is does a character with aleft arm cyberarm who is naturally right handed suffer the -2 penalty for using their off hand?
Now I know it does't say you dont but if you thing about the game mechanics of the cyberarm it makes me think that maybe it should.
I human character can have a normal AGI of 3 and a customerised cyberarm, without a cyber torso, of AGI 9. The rules state that when using that arm predominately for an action you use its AGI. So I shoot and use 9 AGI. My natural AGI isnt counted in the equation. No hand eye coordiation problems using the higher AGI. So why would it be a problem then if my normal nondominant hand is the one replaced? So if the cyberarm Attributes overide the fine motor skills of the character whould they cancel handedness(as handedness is basically defined by their unequal distribution of fine motor skill between the left and right hands)?

I say no. Handedness has a lot to do with the brain and how it processes information; moreso than what the limb is made of.

We have 2 eyes for depth perception. One eye is the dominant eye. This is how the brain processes sight. Replacing cyber-eyes wouldn't change that. Your brain would still default to a certain optical input for dominance.

I see handedness working in the same way. Your brain is used to your body functioning as a righty. Just because your augmented left arm is more graceful doesn't make your brain suddenly comfortable with using that side of your body as well.

If you want to use a cyberlimb to duplicate ambidexterity I suggest you give the limb an Agility bonus to compensate for the offhanded penalty. Then, although it's not true ambidexterity it is using tech to compensate; a true SR move in my opinion.

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto. It's the brain.

However, you may use either hand in a test if you choose. If you have a natural dominant AGI 3 hand and cyber AGI 6 'off' hand, feel free to use 6 (-2) instead of 3.

[HappyDaze]

It should be easy enough to make a bit of cultured bioware that allows for ambidexterity by reworking the nerve pathways. This shouldn't really be much more complex than Reflex Recorders.

[Yerameyahu]

Mhm. That sounds fine. The Positive Quality is only 5BP (right?), so a little bioware should fit nicely as an equivalent. Hell, a geneware option, too?

[Tanegar]

If you're taking a Martial Arts quality anyway, the maneuver Off-Hand Training gives the benefits of ambidexterity at only 2BP.

[WarpedAzz]

Fair enough. The Bioware/Geneware idea is pretty cool.

[HappyDaze]

Also, if you have skillwires (or move-by-wire), a very small activesoft subprogram should allow for ambidexterity. Technomancers with the right advances could program their nervous system in a similar way.

[Yerameyahu]

Good point. A special 'program option' to add to it, like the various other program options?

[Medicineman]

If you're taking a Martial Arts quality anyway, the maneuver Off-Hand Training gives the benefits of ambidexterity at only 2BP.

But only in Close Combat !

@ WarpedAzz
I would Rule it very simply:
If you want to have complete Ambidexterity ,pay 5 BP or 10 Karma .Everything else is unfair to any other Player that paid normally for it

with a Fair Dance
Medicineman

[HappyDaze]

If you want to have complete Ambidexterity ,pay 5 BP or 10 Karma .Everything else is unfair to any other Player that paid normally for it

SR is full of examples where different paths lead to the same effect at widely different costs. There's no good reason that Ambidexterity can't be treated the same way.

[Traul]

A similar example: High Pain Tolerance and Damage Compensators. Ware costs Essence and counts towards the starting money cap, it is fair that the BP cost is lower.

[Aerospider]

Another notion to consider is the impracticalities of having mismatched arms. Mechanically, with one arm having average Agility and the other being superhuman then the character should be glad if the off-hand penalty is the only fly in the ointment.

[IKerensky]

how can a customised cyberarms could be AGI 9 without requiring cybertorso ? (on a AGI 3 character ?).

[Stahlseele]

Because optimized Limbs can go to the natural Maximum in a given Stat.
And as long as you are below 4 on the augmenting scale of the limb itself, you don't need a Torso.
if your natural maximum is 4, then you can get the limb up to 7 without needing a Torso.
But if you try to get it up to 8? Yes, Torso-Time now.
Furthermore, on the mismatched attributes in Cyberlimbs. Who says you can't tone them down, when you do not need to use the full scale of their abilities?
You can redline a limb, basically overclocking it. So why should you not be able to undervolt it? give less power to the limb and it functions at a lesser state.
Just like with todays computer-parts. And seeing how newer intel CPU's under/overclock themselves as needed, i don't see why limbs should not do that too.

[Traul]

3 points of customization ( for a total 6 AGI, the maximum allowed) and 3 points of enhancement (the maximum allowed without a cybertorso).

[Aerospider]

You can redline a limb, basically overclocking it. So why should you not be able to undervolt it? give less power to the limb and it functions at a lesser state.

Good point.

[IKerensky]

I thought the customisation point only allow to reach the current character value... re-reading it, it seems I was wrong.

On the other hand it seems really overpowered as it is fairly cheap and I dont see why use anything else than customised.

Also there is no need for a cybertorso if you dont go above max attribute +3. Weird.

[Stahlseele]

Well, they had to make Limbs better.
Simply because they could not have been worse . .

[RedFish]

Some of the replies in this thread are starting to confuse me. To my knowledge optimized cyberlimbs have nothing to do with attributes per se but are modifications to a cyberlimb that gives a bonus to certain actions. Customized cyberlimbs on an agility 3 character can only go above 3 if you use enchancements unless you have a cybertorso. Enchancements cost capacity and can not get your character above 7 on character creation since more than 4 is 16+ availability. Is there something I'm missing here?

EDIT: Hm... seems I too have misread the rules a bit. Neato.

[Stahlseele]

Yes . . Now you can see the true Power that lies in these Mighty Hands Of Steel.
Not only Armor.

[HappyDaze]

3 points of enhancement (the maximum allowed without a cybertorso).

I don't see this rule in SR4A. As far as I can tell, there's no longer anything stopping a character from having Agility Enhancement 4+ on a limb without a cybertorso (other than Capacity).

[WarpedAzz]

I don't see this rule in SR4A. As far as I can tell, there's no longer anything stopping a character from having Agility Enhancement 4+ on a limb without a cybertorso (other than Capacity).

Under the heading Standard limbs on page 343 of the limited Ed anniversary book it says. "On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimbs enhancements with a rating higher than 3." At the end of the description of Customised Cyberlimbs it says "that in all other stats customized cyberlimbs are identical to standard limbs (I.e. Capacity points)."
So assumedly this also means maximum upgrade levels.
My reading of the rules, specifically "they allow the user to raise their starting Body, Strength and Agility attributes up to the character's natural attribute maximum" meant that the customized limb could, for a human for example have Bod,Str and Agi of 6 each no matter what the characters stats were( as their natural maximum in each of these is 6).
Is that right? The example doesn't really read like this though. Maybe in the rules were it says maximum it should read actual?

[Stahlseele]

It certainly is how most people here tend to read these rules.
Also, leave it like that. Nothing overpowered there at all.
They finally get a modicum of usefullness, and allready enough people are calling for nerfs again.
Because they think people will change out the complete body and put as much attribute and armor into it as they can . .

[Traul]

Because they think people will change out the complete body and put as much attribute and armor into it as they can . .

You mean you didn't? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Even that is far from broken. The key limit is that if you get the full body replacement, there is not enough Essence left for Wired Reflexes and not enough money left for Synaptic Booster 2. Sure, a full cyborg has great armor, but he still has less impact in the samy role than the basic build.